Discussion on modern politics

[Deleted User]

Or, we accidentally revive debate club.

Where we last left off:

Bish wha?

The vast majority of voters on both sides are only voting because "REPUBLICANS/DEMOCRATS ARE PURE EVIL!!!!", not because they actually thought out their own personal beliefs. I guarantee you, if you dropped the usual democrat and a usual republican into the middle of nowhere, they would both be trying to kill each other in under a week

It's not that I don't want to argue with you, it's that I'd rather you stick to the topic of the thread while doing so. I know that I got pulled to the side too, but this thread is about evidence of ties to Russia with President Trump, not whether or not we should support him based on policy. There are points where those topics intersect, but economic policy (unless, of course, it's lifting sanctions on Russia) is not one of those

If you want to move this discussion elsewhere, I'd be willing to open it on another thread

I think you'll find I'm a snide person whenever I get worked up, no matter who's on the receiving end, but I wasn't even looking to insult you (let alone the entire conservative party) in that case; I was legitimately telling you to actually do some historical research before just blindly following whoever's currently heading your party

Whatever the case, you came off as very condescending. I hate it when I'm in a debate and it becomes a game of 'WHO CAN MAKE MORE AD HOMINEMS!!!?!?

Now, on the subject of "insulting conservatives and trump supports," I could easily launch into a tangent on how the "trump Party" and the "Conservative Party" are now two completely distinct entities, but I won't. Because again, off topic.

Can't argue with you there. If 50% of conservatives are rabid, 99% of trumpians(?) should be locked up at the nearest mental hospital.

The overall point I was trying to make was that while trump isn't any George Washington, he's definitely not satan incarnate. At the very least he's (debatedly) competent, and he's (probably) not going to crash the country into the ground. Better then I can say for some presidents.

If you're going to join in, keep it respectful. There's no reason we can't have a civilized conversation, no matter which side of the spectrum you fall on.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Ok then, to start off, I highly disagree with your assertion that a "typical" republican and a "typical" democrat would attempt to kill each other if tossed in isolation with each other; I genuinely believe that human nature is to ultimately do what is best for ourselves and the people we hold most dear, and that generally speaking a republican and a democrat will put aside differences on opinions on things like foreign relations and economic policy to get along for at least a time with each other. It is only when you factor in the recent revival of nationalist ideals and general disdain for entire classes of people who are not "me!" that you would have people at each other's throats; one side attempting to eradicate the other, and the other merely attempting to survive

 

[Attacker3]

Man if only both democrats and republicans were both nationalistic. I don't know where this joke came from where being a nationalist is a bad thing. It just means putting your nation first. Not necessarily your state (read: country), but your people. You're a nationalist if you think that the US should try to get the better end of a deal, and it would be nationalist of me to want Canada to get the better part of the deal.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Ok, excuse me. "Extreme nationalism"

 

[Xzi]

Ok then, to start off, I highly disagree with your assertion that a "typical" republican and a "typical" democrat would attempt to kill each other if tossed in isolation with each other; I genuinely believe that human nature is to ultimately do what is best for ourselves and the people we hold most dear, and that generally speaking a republican and a democrat will put aside differences on opinions on things like foreign relations and economic policy to get along for at least a time with each other. It is only when you factor in the recent revival of nationalist ideals and general disdain for entire classes of people who are not "me!" that you would have people at each other's throats; one side attempting to eradicate the other, and the other merely attempting to survive

Yeah, it's more like if you throw a neo-Nazi and an Antifa member in isolation together they'll attempt to kill each other, but that's kind of a given. The thing is that Republicans are willing to go along for the ride when leaders like Trump take a hard right turn, and Democrats haven't had a leader that far to the extreme left. I suppose that would've been Bernie, but if he's the worst case scenario, Republicans are really fear-mongering over nothing when it comes to leftist "extremism."

 

[Attacker3]

Ok, excuse me. "Extreme nationalism"

And what would extreme nationalism be to you? What's the difference between extreme nationalism and normal nationalism?

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Yeah, it's more like if you throw a neo-Nazi and an Antifa member in isolation together they'll attempt to kill each other, but that's kind of a given. The thing is that Republicans are willing to go along for the ride when leaders like Trump take a hard right turn, and Democrats haven't had a leader that far to the extreme left. I suppose that would've been Bernie, but if he's the worst case scenario, Republicans are really fear-mongering over nothing when it comes to leftist "extremism."

You do realize that Trump was originally a democrat, and even now acts remarkably like a Business Democrat, right? How do you classify right-leaning? Genuinely curious.

 

[Xzi]

And what would extreme nationalism be to you? What's the difference between extreme nationalism and normal nationalism?

Typically one of them wants to cleanse the nation of anybody non-white. Which is ridiculous considering the natives who were here before us.

You do realize that Trump was originally a democrat, and even now acts remarkably like a Business Democrat, right? How do you classify right-leaning? Genuinely curious.

Please tell me you're joking. Democrats don't cut corporate tax rates in half. Trump is acting more like GWB, a Republican with a spending problem putting us as deep in debt as possible to please the corporate overlords. And the tariffs are just an extra special level of stupid that no other modern president would've signed off on.

 

[Deleted User]

Ok then, to start off, I highly disagree with your assertion that a "typical" republican and a "typical" democrat would attempt to kill each other if tossed in isolation with each other; I genuinely believe that human nature is to ultimately do what is best for ourselves and the people we hold most dear, and that generally speaking a republican and a democrat will put aside differences on opinions on things like foreign relations and economic policy to get along for at least a time with each other. It is only when you factor in the recent revival of nationalist ideals and general disdain for entire classes of people who are not "me!" that you would have people at each other's throats; one side attempting to eradicate the other, and the other merely attempting to survive

Yeah, that was an exaggeration. But definitely among the people who treat their parties like religions, I would see someone dying.

 

[Attacker3]

Typically one of them wants to cleanse the nation of anybody non-white. Which is ridiculous considering the natives who were here before us.


Please tell me you're joking. Democrats don't cut corporate tax rates in half. Trump is acting more like GWB, a Republican with a spending problem putting us as deep in debt as possible to please the corporate overlords. And the tariffs are just an extra special level of stupid that no other modern president would've signed off on.

First off, what you are describing is not nationalism. It's a thing called genocide. I suppose you could say it is ethno-nationalism, but that is different than nationalism. And the US corporate tax rate was at 35%, and was dropped down to 21%. That is not half. Half of 35 is 17.5. And the US is now on par with most major countries now. Before Trump, the corporate tax rate was one of, if no the highest in the western world. They now dropped it to be in line with other more "democratic" nations.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Yeah, that was an exaggeration. But definitely among the people who treat their parties like religions, I would see someone dying.

So you think that with a true representative democracy (i.e. everyone votes on important decisions, people can be voted OUT of congress if outcry is loud enough, etc.), that those people would be a hazard to the nation, rather than taking the extra opportunity for democratic engagement to improve it?

 

[Deleted User]

Typically one of them wants to cleanse the nation of anybody non-white. Which is ridiculous considering the natives who were here before us.

No, that's just racism. To a true nationalist, it doesn't matter if you're white, black, or even Mexican. If you have a US passport, you're american. Extreme Nationalism would be trying to destroy all other countries to prevent your own from ever being hurt.

Of course, in practical terms, you still provide a pretty good description.

 

[WD_GASTER2]

Yeah, that was an exaggeration. But definitely among the people who treat their parties like religions, I would see someone dying.

The problem is that those that see it as religious are fed a "caricature" of the opposing side at all times. They believe that there is a huge segment of the opposing that side to be this caricature. Add to the fact that people generalize and you have recipe for a mess
sorry to butt in but this conversation seems interesting. lol

 

[Deleted User]

So you think that with a true representative democracy (i.e. everyone votes on important decisions, people can be voted OUT of congress if outcry is loud enough, etc.), that those people would be a hazard to the nation, rather than taking the extra opportunity for democratic engagement to improve it?

Maybeee not in a representative democracy. but in true, i.e. Direct democracy, Youre guaranteed to have fun stuff like tyranny of the majority and mob rule.

 

[Attacker3]

Maybeee not in a representative democracy. but in true, i.e. Direct democracy, Youre guaranteed to have fun stuff like tyranny of the majority and mob rule.

Don't know what this argument is about, but I'm just going to say that if the US did not have the electoral college, then essentially 3 cities would decide for all of the USA.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

No, that's just racism. To a true nationalist, it doesn't matter if you're white, black, or even Mexican. If you have a US passport, you're american. Extreme Nationalism would be trying to destroy all other countries to prevent your own from ever being hurt.

Of course, in practical terms, you still provide a pretty good description.

Not true at all, under fascist nationalism (which is quite frankly how I'd classify extreme nationalism), the leader of the country gets to dictate who is and isn't citizens, even if they've lived in the country legally for most of, if not all of their life. And that's not just hypothetical, that is happening right now. And before you say "well, they did 'x' to deserve that!" I want you to think for a second; what's stopping the government from asserting that anyone who has immigrated to America is not a naturalized citizen? They hold the paperwork, which they can theoretically alter to say whatever they want, and they clearly have the power to retroactively revoke citizenship. So how exactly can one definitively say that "if you have a US Passport, you'll be protected by US nationalism"?

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Maybeee not in a representative democracy. but in true, i.e. Direct democracy, Youre guaranteed to have fun stuff like tyranny of the majority and mob rule.

I don't know that that's something that anyone is genuinely proposing, though?...

 

[Attacker3]

Not true at all, under fascist nationalism (which is quite frankly how I'd classify extreme nationalism), the leader of the country gets to dictate who is and isn't citizens, even if they've lived in the country legally for most of, if not all of their life. And that's not just hypothetical, that is happening right now. And before you say "well, they did 'x' to deserve that!" I want you to think for a second; what's stopping the government from asserting that anyone who has immigrated to America is not a naturalized citizen? They hold the paperwork, which they can theoretically alter to say whatever they want, and they clearly have the power to retroactively revoke citizenship. So how exactly can one definitively say that "if you have a US Passport, you'll be protected by US nationalism"?

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I don't know that that's something that anyone is genuinely proposing, though?...

What's happening right now?

 

[WD_GASTER2]

not gonna lie, there are a lot of "EFFED-UP" undertones with the current brand of nationalism that some folks are pushing for to believe otherwise would be blind.

 

[Xzi]

No, that's just racism. To a true nationalist, it doesn't matter if you're white, black, or even Mexican. If you have a US passport, you're american. Extreme Nationalism would be trying to destroy all other countries to prevent your own from ever being hurt.

Of course, in practical terms, you still provide a pretty good description.

With nationalism too often comes an ignorance and belief that this country was founded to be a "white, Christian nation." I'll concede that nationalism on its own isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it easily leads to so many bad things. My biggest gripe with the whole philosophy is that nationalists will cheer the country right into the grave, pretending everything is going smoothly the entire time.

First off, what you are describing is not nationalism. It's a thing called genocide. I suppose you could say it is ethno-nationalism, but that is different than nationalism. And the US corporate tax rate was at 35%, and was dropped down to 21%. That is not half. Half of 35 is 17.5. And the US is now on par with most major countries now. Before Trump, the corporate tax rate was one of, if no the highest in the western world. They now dropped it to be in line with other more "democratic" nations.

We're one of the wealthiest nations on Earth and profit margins are higher than they've ever been, not a single corporation needed that cut. If he had given a cut that large to the workers of this nation, which would actually make sense, we'd be having an entirely different conversation.

 

[Attacker3]

If he had given a cut that large to the workers of this nation, which would actually make sense, we'd be having an entirely different conversation.

He did though

 

[TotalInsanity4]

What's happening right now?

Hyperlinks. Hyperlinks are happening right now.

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He did though

Workers, not corporate heads