Covid-19 vaccine

Will you get the vaccine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 413 69.8%
  • No

    Votes: 179 30.2%

  • Total voters
    592

BitMasterPlus

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https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...ate-after-husband-dies-from-covid-19/2709975/


https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/29/former-anti-vaxxer-now-nudge-people-to-get-covid-19-vaccine/


https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/anti-vax-influencer-covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy/

Here are three sources, provided free of charge and happen to be from the first page of a Google search, where three anti vaxxers are now advocating getting the vaccine.

The problem with bias is that, yes, you're completely right in the fact that every source technically provides bias. I believe someone posted either in this thread or the conservative news corner thread a much more detailed explanation, but basically bias is linked with perspective, therefore it's difficult to find a source that's completely unbiased.

However, there are different levels of bias, and most people don't take into consideration the amount of misinformation that comes with higher levels of bias. Most of what you've posted comes with a ton of misinformation, even if it's posting something vague and taunting people into believing misinformation through emotion.

"Do your research" is getting exhausting to hear at this point. It's literally said in lieu of a valid argument. If all you can do is try to ridicule people and get butthurt over being called out, you can't expect anything else but vitriol.
Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites. So then when I post sources on my side then no one should complain either. If these people want to take the vaccine, fine. If they want to suggest to others to do the same, ok. It's still up to the individual to decide themselves if they want to or not.

I don't see the problem on doing one's research. I mean, it's searching and reading is not gonna kill you or anything. I don't see any excuse to not do research other than laziness and ignorance.

And if people want to respond with vitriol, fine. I'm not really butthurt or anything. I just said I got a little mad, but my ass is a-ok lol. For people who urge others to take the vaccine to save lives, I've seen the same people wanting those who are unvaccinated to drop dead. For such compassionate people, some like to see unborn babies and people who disagree with them die. My philosophy is "An eye for an eye." I claim to be no better than the man next to me, so if you say you want the unvaxxed to die, then I should have the right to say those who are vaxxed and who support it should also die a slow and painful death. Since you don't agree with me, I hope your insides liquefy after taking the shot. And if this is trolling or a problem, then those who wish death on those who oppose the vax or haven't taken it yet should also get in the same amount of trouble.
 
Last edited by BitMasterPlus,

Dakitten

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I wasn't even gonna respond since all that comes out of your mouth is vitriol, bur you pissed me off. First off, what source doesn't have a little bias, even just a little, and what makes you think what you're been told isn't biased or lies? Did you do you damn research yourself or are you just another sheep as well. Secondly, I don't care if I get banned or not, I'm not the laughing joking numb nut who decided to put a politics section in a computer forum/modding site and then expect for people not to share different opinions and get pissy about it when some don't agree. If people like you are allowed to spew shit, then it should be the same for everyone. No one should be afraid to share their thoughts and or be threatened with bans.

The problem, comrade, isn't that nobody can be unbiased, but rather what motivations would somebody have to give into a bias. Take, for instance, the health care industry with the covid vaccine. The US has some fairly corrupt pharmaceutical companies, this is truth that few would debate. Listening purely to lobbyists within the country on the efficacy and side effects of things would probably be a bad idea. However, these groups do not control the interests of doctors across the globe, many of whom have no monetary gain by jumping on the pro-vaccine bandwagon, and they are among the many folks involved in the peer review process. I'm sure this is boring stuff for you to think about, but life exists outside of your bubble and there are a great many intelligent and experienced individuals who pool their talents and time with no promise of a giant payday. Could they politically lean to one side or the other of the political landscape? Probably, many doctors are very passionate about their positions. Does that mean anything to their findings and objectives? NO!

And here is why you have gotten into trouble. You seem to not like that view, so you find questionable talking heads that echo your viewpoints, without doing the research into what exactly they're saying. You've put your lack of critical thinking skills on full display, and even those who lean towards your ideology sometimes have had to give you distance because of your willingness to ignore facts inconvenient to your world view. The things you espouse are literally harmful on occasion, homophobic or racist or sexist on occasion, and promote discourse of the worst kind.

Responses to you haven't always been kind, and I confess that I've indulged in hitting the BitPinata of silliness, but that is because what you're sharing isn't opinions, it is lies. You may not understand the reasons they're lies, but that doesn't change the facts, and people have REPEATEDLY struggled to help you understand to no avail. Several right leaning individuals have managed to at the very least stay civil and show their ability to engage in intelligent conversation (even if I question their sincerity on occasion...), but your behavior doesn't tend to match their efforts.
 

RAHelllord

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Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites. So then when I post sources on my side then no one should complain either. If these people want to take the vaccine, fine. If they want to suggest to others to do the same, ok. It's still up to the individual to decide themselves if they want to or not.

I don't see the problem on doing one's research. I mean, it's searching and reading is not gonna kill you or anything. I don't see any excuse to not do research other than laziness and ignorance.

And if people want to respond with vitriol, fine. I'm not really butthurt or anything. I just said I got a little mad, but my ass is a-ok lol. For people who urge others to take the vaccine to save lives, I've seen the same people wanting those who are unvaccinated to drop dead. For such compassionate people, some like to see unborn babies and people who disagree with them die. My philosophy is "An eye for an eye." I claim to be no better than the man next to me, so if you say you want the unvaxxed to die, then I should have the right to say those who are vaxxed and who support it should also die a slow and painful death. Since you don't agree with me, I hope your insides liquefy after taking the shot. And if this is trolling or a problem, then those who wish death on those who oppose the vax or haven't taken it yet should also get in the same amount of trouble.

People make fun of your stance because it's easily proven and fact checked that almost everything you post is blatantly incorrect. Take my last reply for example where the study your video cited outright says the incidence of abortions occuring after the vaccine is the same rate as they occur in healthy people that haven't gotten the shot. Many of your opinions are also just parroting the talking points of people with an actual political stake in it and are willing to manipulate their viewers into either getting donations from them or get donations from a higher up politically active group. Your "research" is listening to people that openly misrepresent actual facts from the studies they quote, that knowingly edit out or remove context from interviews to make them fit their videos, or peddle studies as gospel that don't survive peer review because the studies had multiple egregious issues. If you want to be taken seriously all you have to do is actually start doing your own "research" but read the studies yourself and then double check the facts given, or better yet listen to people when they dumb down the studies for the average Joe because otherwise you're going to need a dictionary for half the words some studies use. I know that because I've been there with about 15 tabs open on Wikipedia because I've no idea half those words mean.
Also the media you shun as left leaning is often times on the political spectrum closer to center than left leaning. The US does not have a left leaning political party, both Dems and Repub are on the right side of the spectrum, the republicans are just further right than the Democrats. I know this with confidence because I'm further left than Bernie Sanders in my political views and my local voting patterns reflect that. Neutral media shares a view leftist views because part of what the left does is (often begrudginly) embrace science, and science requires that people are able to change their views to new science even if it goes against previously taught knowledge or personal beliefs.

Also, people on the left don't "want" unvaccinated people to die, we're just no longer willing to support selfish people that have slapped away every single helping hand they've been offered and instead actively are trying to make everything worse by screaming and kicking about their freedom to be selfish. It's been almost 2 years we've all been negatively affected by the pandemic and most people on the left have followed the science advise as best as they could while the ultra-tough, gun slinging to stop mass shooters, right threw a 1 and a half year long tantrum against wearing a cloth mask and keeping a little more distance than usual. We're simply stating the facts that, if they don't want to get vaccinated that they should please take full responsibility for their personal decisions and not cry for help when they suddenly and inevitably contract the virus and require medical help. Hospitals are full from people that don't want to get vaccinated and are currently blocking ICU beds, people have died from totally preventable disease because the ICU was blocked statewide. Unvaccinated people getting sick literally kills other people at the moment. And for this simple reason, that the left saw coming over a year ago, we are now collectively telling people if they don't want to take responsibility for their actions to please lie down somewhere that isn't the ICU and just suffocate on their pneumonia without bothering the rest of us.

We will not be groveling to the selfish people to please accept help, there is a solution and if they don't want it we're under no obligation to feel anything when the bill comes in form of a casket.
 

smf

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Just to play Devil's advocate for a second here, are we culpable if someone dies as a direct result (medically proved of course) of taking the vaccine due to our advocacy?

If someone purposefully persuaded someone to take a vaccine knowing that the risk was greater than the benefit then sure.

People like Nicki Minaj know what they are doing.

smf, i named you earlier because you are the shining example of how not to think, fascist authoritarian, take some personal responsibility, if you listen to some chump on the internet and something bad happens YOU are the one at fault not the chump.

You appear to have a very poor grasp of human behavior and psychology.

Cambridge Analytica have proved that you can sway public opinion with lies. All you need is money and a lack of morals and you can win elections. It's about time you took responsibility for the lies you tell and don't just hand waive it away as "if people are dumb enough to believe my lies then it's on them not me".

If think that makes me fascist or authoritarian then you have a poor grasp of those concepts too.

So doctors openly admitting on video what's going behind the scenes of the pandemic is still lies? I guess don't believe your lying ears and eyes then.

Because all doctors always tell the truth?

https://www.history.com/news/cigarette-ads-doctors-smoking-endorsement

They are just people and can be crazy or bought.

I don't think anyone could afford to buy all the doctors who support vaccination, buying all the ones who are against it seems doable though.

"Do your research" is getting exhausting to hear at this point. It's literally said in lieu of a valid argument.

It's worse, the people who use it are trying to justify their complete lack of research and logical thought processes.

It actually means "I read only the things I agreed with and now I'm convinced".

Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites.

Are you saying that the actual people who have been filmed saying that they regret not having the vaccine before they actually died are somehow influenced by the bias of the news site that reported it afterwards?

At this point you seem incapable of rational thought if all you can do is call anything you disagree with leftist bias.

At least there are some brave people who ignore their parents cowardice

https://slate.com/technology/2021/0...racy-theory-coronavirus-parents-children.html
 
Last edited by smf,

notimp

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Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites. So then when I post sources on my side then no one should complain either. If these people want to take the vaccine, fine. If they want to suggest to others to do the same, ok. It's still up to the individual to decide themselves if they want to or not.

I don't see the problem on doing one's research. I mean, it's searching and reading is not gonna kill you or anything. I don't see any excuse to not do research other than laziness and ignorance.

And if people want to respond with vitriol, fine. I'm not really butthurt or anything. I just said I got a little mad, but my ass is a-ok lol. For people who urge others to take the vaccine to save lives, I've seen the same people wanting those who are unvaccinated to drop dead. For such compassionate people, some like to see unborn babies and people who disagree with them die. My philosophy is "An eye for an eye." I claim to be no better than the man next to me, so if you say you want the unvaccinated to die, then I should have the right to say those who are vaxxed and who support it should also die a slow and painful death. Since you don't agree with me, I hope your insides liquefy after taking the shot. And if this is trolling or a problem, then those who wish death on those who oppose the vax or haven't taken it yet should also get in the same amount of trouble.
You arent bringing an argument - instead you are posting a shaky cam video of someone in a white coat, that is saying "they arent telling you, they arent telling you about the 30 year old with congestive heart decease", and then switching to "the problem is that they arent doing antibody tests" and then next sentence, "no they are doing tests, the problem is just, that the government has hidden them from you!", cut to two 80IQ people "telling you what this was all about". (Who were the people that were filmed, they dont care - they had a white coat!) Cut to a youtuber telling you he will tell you what they told you - and then show you even more!

If I'd ask you to make an actual argument out of this, you would get stuck at the "the government is trying to kill me!" stage, followed by "they arent telling us the truthTM, they are lying!".

Lets go through this and show you the issues with that:

1. White coat means nothing, what people are saying means nothing, what they are publishing, does. Next thing you'd probably do is tell me I should listen to the generals opinion on afghanistan, because he has such a nice uniform. Get over the "symbol" fetish, of white coat means authority, and shaky cam means hidden, and youtuber tells me conspiracy - and oh me gud, those are them facts, them facts I tells you.

2. Politics isnt hiding information from the public in that instance - politics can report case figures, but the reports are done by other agencies, and there are institution wide reports done as well on the hospital level. Lets say politics wants to hide something - like case infection rate under Trump, which magically split between democratic and repiblic states mid reporting, once he uttered somewhat publically - that it should.

Top down you could maybe influence the first government agency, thats reporting figures. Thats actually a thing some politicians around the world do. Then they'd have to argue for why they do it, and could respond with stuff like "we dont want to create panic" f.e.. The next agency down (say regional level) usually doesnt care at all and keeps reporting like they would, and at the hospital level, good luck getting the responsible people there convinced that they should forge figures. Thats usually not going to happen.

Why? Because the "we dont want create panic" argument doesnt fly there. Those people know, that their figures arent what gets reported at the official level, so why the frack should they start forging their own reports? What you are dealing with here is a "separation of power", politician can do nothing for the doctors, or the scientists career, so they could as well f*ck off, if they cant pull something like 'national interest'. Those numbers will get out. And if they dont - the next guy - doing statistics on 'excess mortality rate', will do f*ck all to forge their numbers, just because the last guy did, and then the guy before that, and then the guy before that, and then the guy before that, and then the "president" (or guy in politics who dreamt that thing up).
Which brings us to point two - are you insane? Do you know how many people you would have to threaten or bribe, across different institutions with different chains of command, in different states all around the country? To then have one person in white coat in a shaky cam video tell you the truthTM? You are talking tens of thousands going against their work ethic, professional oaths, ...

So how does this work in practice? Lets say politics can threaten the "official reporting agency" to downplay covid numbers for a while - because of lets say stated "national interest" (prevent mass panics), and then thats it. Internal reporting of the next agency down usually is still 'not fudged with' and the reporting at the hospital stage (those guys write scientific studies also, you know), also is not. And if there would be attempts, the professional outcry would be effing huge. And you see it in other countries, panning out like that. (Dictator reported lower numbers, journalists go down to the next lower reporting agency, add up numbers, publish that those dont add up and are higher. Or then look at excess mortality rates, and those turn out higher.) Because you cant "conspiracy theory" the whole medical system.

It would be easier to tell people, that the entities making the vaccine bribed the people doing the studies, than that this is a political conspiracy (where the youtuber you follows, btw - always gets you the right shaky cam videos of some guy or gals in a white coat, to then...). But for that purpose, you have separation of power. People doing the big studies pre greenlighting a vaccine have to be independent, and hospitals doing the runs are also independent (in terms of their financing). What politics did at that point was to fast track the "legislation process", but not the actual tests. Thats why vaccines had been finished in 3 weeks (in some cases), and rollout still took a year (ok, production also had to be turned up), but those tests were properly done in that year.


So what are those people in white coats in a shaky cam video talking about?

Degenerative heart disease in a 30 year old?
In an article published Tuesday in JAMA Cardiology, U.S. Army, Navy and Air Force physicians described 23 cases of myocarditis in previously healthy males who developed the condition within four days of receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.

Physicians would have expected to find eight or fewer cases of myocarditis among the 436,000 male military members who received two mRNA shots, according to the study. But 20 military members developed inflammation after their second dose, including 14 after the Moderna shot and six after the Pfizer shot. Three developed the condition after their first vaccine.
https://www.military.com/daily-news...lammation-cases-linked-covid-19-vaccines.html

Thats 4x the expected rate.

At a chance of 1:21800.

Issue is sample size. At 20 people reported, it still could be a statistical fluke. Or not. Why?
The researchers noted that myocarditis was not reported as an adverse effect in the Phase 3 clinical trials for the mRNA vaccines, and that, other than in the case of the smallpox vaccine, "immunizations are rarely associated with hypersensitivity myocarditis."

In 2003, at least 10 military personnel and several civilians developed myocarditis after receiving the vaccine; two died of heart attacks. The CDC took steps to recommend that people diagnosed with heart disease avoid the smallpox vaccination.
If we propose the same mycarditis to death rate - it was 4 people that might have died from 436,000 getting a shot. Again, this is still 4 times higher than expected - but just to keep the proportions.

Whats more important though is, that -- that stuff gets reported. There are study results that get out there, and institutions that are picking them up. There is even journalistic reporting on it.

Are the army figures the "only correct ones"? No - but that report is signaling to other institutions to keep that number in mind, and check in their numbers.

Next we go to "why havent they found out earlier"? Stage 3 trials for any vaccine are usually done with close to 30.000 (willing) participants. Again - if something shows up at a rate of 1:109000 (person died because of heart inflamation), its impossible to catch it in stage 3 trials.

Next step is the interesting one. So if one person in 109000 died - why arent we reporting on it, and calling Fox news and the two 80IQ people to get everyone into praying cycles to topple the gouvernment? Because people (even in their 30s) die from Covid as well. So at the planning level of "pandemic management", you are literally doing statistics weighing one set of deaths and complications, against another set of deaths and complications, against the average death (and complications) rate, of "people just die" in the same general timeframe.

If you are a very lovely person, you also do calculations on "average healthy days left" meaning , you weigh those calculations towards the healthier younger people, because you try to optimize for "max healthy days in overall population".

So - lets say heart inflamation rate is not raised by 4x, but only by 2x - it might make sense to simply not tell that to people in the evening news, because it might scare them, less of them would take the vaccine, and thereby death rate would increase from Covid related deceases. Lets make this a little more realistic and say, you also factor in economic fallout, from - lets say another spike in infections, and what might happen if hospitals are over capacity.


What are the other two points the people in that "shocking shaky cam video" are talking about?

"They dont do antibody tests" and "Oh no - they are doing them, but they arent publishing results".

No, they are doing them, and they are publishing results.

Administration of two doses of the vaccine generated a neutralizing response in 95% of individuals, with titres three- to fivefold lower against the Delta variant than against the Alpha variant.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9

(titer is just a measure of antibodies, like lets say liter is for beer)

So Immunity - is largely out of the window at this point (because Delta came along, and the vaccines arent working as good agains it, as they did against the first strain (alpha)), but you still get low to no symptoms in 95% of people with two shots - _severely_ lowering the infection rate (they'd be infecting others by), because with no or low symptoms, they usually arent infectious, or far less infectious.

With that also correlates, that you get far less deadly outcomes from a covid infection. (You yourself, and in the general population.)
--

Now - lets create the main points of the argument, without someone in a white coat in a shakycam video telling you the truth, as two other people will tell you - in addition to your podcaster who will talk about them --

Risk chance of side effects lower than potential risk chances of severe or deadly side effects of Covid (even in that agegroup) = everything dandy, and please lets not tell people all those numbers they'd just get confused and or scared.

Enter stage left two people with an 80s IQ, who tell you the government is hiding the truth from you!

There is an inherent danger. Which is why people have to decide for themselves, if they are willing to take the vaccine or not. But the point is, that government has to keep tabs on if that risk is far lower, than the risk that comes from Covid or not - and they are doing that. No conspiracy - nothing "hidden by 20.000 people being forced to shut up, or being bribed..", thats just not probable.

And the risk is low. But tell that to people, who play the lottery every sunday (with the super number!), and get their news from their facebook feeds. Kind of hard to do.

Which is why "forcing" people to get the shot in general is 'out' but very strongly urging them to get it, is all the hot shizzles. (The individuals have to take the risk, the state has to make sure, its not worse, than the risks that would come along with covid (taking into account how fast it spreads).)

Oh and we depend on science not to be affected by politics to be able to make those hard weighing decisions (where statistically you take into account deaths on both sides, and then still have to make a pragmatic decision, in the interest of 'the people'.).

edit: Correction: Covid-19 also might be infectious if you arent showing symptoms. Have read too little about what that means on the societal level for vaccination campaigns. (Also might be different if you arent showing symptoms, because you've been vaccinated.). If someone knows more about that, please fill us in.

edit2: Yeah vaccinated people still potentially infecting others, if they've contracted Covid, is a thing with delta: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1
“The bottom line is, this can happen — it can be true that vaccinated people can spread the virus. But we do not yet know what their relative role in overall community spread is,” says co-author Thomas Friedrich, a virologist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
Remember that the chance for severe outcomes still is lower once vaccinated.
And there should be an impact on community spread as well, otherwise the target of 80% (Ish) of vaccinated people to achieve herd immunity "equivalency", doesnt hold. I just dont know the mechanism. (Somone better at epidemic math explain this to me.. ;) )
 
Last edited by notimp,

The Catboy

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Even if more people were to provide sources, you'd just discredit them since they wouldn't agree with your views, so my question is, why would anyone put in the work of showing you legit sources if you're still gonna just ignore and or claim falsehoods because they don't agree with your views? Seems like a waste of time and energy to me, since you won't change your stance either way, your mind's been made up long ago, but what do I know.
That's a lot of projection, my only request has been for peer-reviewed sources, that's literally it. If someone can provide peer-reviewed research, then I am more than willing to read it and research it. That process is literally how science is supposed to work. Saying that I won't change my stance or that it would be a waste of time is projection because that's not the case. I am literally looking for people to actually provide information isn't just some conspiracy video from YouTube or some random "doctor" talking out of his ass. I am asking for the bare minimum requirement of a peer-reviewed paper, which is standard for scientific research and medical practices.
 
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smf

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edit: Correction: Covid-19 also might be infectious if you arent showing symptoms. Have read too little about what that means on the societal level for vaccination campaigns. (Also might be different if you arent showing symptoms, because you've been vaccinated.). If someone knows more about that, please fill us in.

Yes, you can spread covid with and without symptoms whether you've been vaccinated or not.

The vaccine gives you a head start on tackling the infection, if it recognizes the strain.

This kinda plays into the anti vaxxers hands a little as they say that the "vaccine doesn't work" except the vaccine does work, to an extent. It works better for example than not having the vaccine.

The quicker you kill the virus, the fewer people you will infect.

An old friend of mine tried the "it's no more dangerous than the common flu", but the flu tends to make you feel really ill and stay home while covid rarely does that. What makes covid really dangerous isn't that it has a high mortality rate, it's that it's easily transmissible and in most cases produces no symptoms.

Covid 19 is a far larger killer than something like ebola, where everyone gets really sick and most people die.
 
Last edited by smf,

smf

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Trials have just begun here in Manchester for a new vaccine booster that isn't just limited to the viral spike protein, which will mean its effiicacy should be good even for unknown variants.

Hopefully.

Ustianowski said that it was difficult to predict whether the new jab would remove the need for Covid vaccines to be tweaked to tackle variants. “This is one of the hopes for this vaccine, but we will have to wait for the immunology and effectiveness data to emerge,” he said. But, he added, “it has been designed with this factor in mind”.
 
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    Is it true what they say, did your neck sprout hairs afterwards?
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  • The Real Jdbye @ The Real Jdbye:
    good luck actually using it
    Gift
  • Cnrisnm @ Cnrisnm:
    Hi
    Gift
  • SG854 @ SG854:
    When I see a red light all I know is go
    Gift
  • kenenthk @ kenenthk:
    Have you tried squid games based on your skills
    Gift
    kenenthk @ kenenthk: Have you tried squid games based on your skills