Covid-19 vaccine

[BitMasterPlus]

I'm doing what now?

Giving away sex licenses.

 

[tabzer]

Much like you can't harbor infectious waste on your person in public, you can't knowingly do the same with a virus. If you want to go out on the town, get vaccinated and wear a mask. Otherwise, camp it out and pray it goes away soon.

I'm not sure how this is related to what I said, but okay.

 

[The Catboy]

Something something, anything worth a damn from the anti-vax side?

 

[Foxi4]

Much like you can't harbor infectious waste on your person in public, you can't knowingly do the same with a virus. If you want to go out on the town, get vaccinated and wear a mask. Otherwise, camp it out and pray it goes away soon.

Sure, you can't do that knowingly (there's actually legal precedent for this). Unvaccinated people, generally, don't know if they have the virus or not, not until they get symptoms, so this example doesn't work. You also can't sequester them just because you don't like their decision, so what do you propose?

 

[SG854]

Something something, anything worth a damn from the anti-vax side?

All I got from Anti Vax No Mask was Free the Mouth Movement


And to counter this
Free the Penis Movement was proposed


Oh God now that I think about it what a disaster

 

[The Catboy]

All I got from Anti Vax No Mask was Free the Mouth Movement


And to counter this
Free the Penis Movement was proposed


Oh God now that I think about it what a disaster

Ok, so still no actual papers or sources.

 

[linuxares]

Ok, so still no actual papers or sources.

Its hard to come up with something that doesn't exist.

 

[Dakitten]

Sure, you can't do that knowingly (there's actually legal precedent for this). Unvaccinated people, generally, don't know if they have the virus or not, not until they get symptoms, so this example doesn't work. You also can't sequester them just because you don't like their decision, so what do you propose?

Sequestering folk was the remedy prior to the vaccine being released, so it stands to reason it'd continue to be the go-to solution for those who refuse to vaccinate. Covid testing without precautions has lead to a metric boatload of cases even in the highest echelons of government, so I propose that it is still too dangerous for the unvaccinated to presume themselves not at risk and to bunker in if they don't care to get the shot.

 

[Foxi4]

Sequestering folk was the remedy prior to the vaccine being released, so it stands to reason it'd continue to be the go-to solution for those who refuse to vaccinate. Covid testing without precautions has lead to a metric boatload of cases even in the highest echelons of government, so I propose that it is still too dangerous for the unvaccinated to presume themselves not at risk and to bunker in if they don't care to get the shot.

That's not exactly true, is it? The lockdowns didn't just encompass the unvaccinated, they were all-encompassing - the economy was temporarily shut down. If we argue that a virus can be considered a natural disaster (I don't see why it wouldn't) then we can put that in the national emergency bucket and few people will scoff at that, generally. You don't get to do that selectively, I'm afraid - particularly not when it's on the basis of the exercise of rights. Of course you always have the option of going full totalitarian/authoritarian and force people into isolation, but then the mask slips, and we wouldn't want that.

 

[linuxares]

Sequestering folk was the remedy prior to the vaccine being released, so it stands to reason it'd continue to be the go-to solution for those who refuse to vaccinate. Covid testing without precautions has lead to a metric boatload of cases even in the highest echelons of government, so I propose that it is still too dangerous for the unvaccinated to presume themselves not at risk and to bunker in if they don't care to get the shot.

One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.

 

[Foxi4]

One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.

Seems to me like the problem is solving itself.

 

[Dakitten]

That's not exactly true, is it? The lockdowns didn't just encompass the unvaccinated, they were all-encompassing - the economy was temporarily shut down. If we argue that a virus can be considered a natural disaster (I don't see why it wouldn't) then we can put that in the national emergency bucket and few people will scoff at that, generally. You don't get to do that selectively, I'm afraid - particularly not when it's on the basis of the exercise of rights. Of course you always have the option of going full totalitarian/authoritarian and force people into isolation, but then the mask slips, and we wouldn't want that.

I don't think I'm wearing some sort of "Freedom for all, always!" facade with this. I believe the power of the government should absolutely be used to save lives even at the cost of personal freedoms during an emergency situation. Freedom only matters to the living, and I'd rather hear a survivor rage than mourn a silent fool. In my book, we should all still isolate a while longer and utilize the strongest government on planet earth to fund shutting down the government until this is more in check, even knowing I'm an essential employee who doesn't have the luxury of time off during the crisis. I don't care if folks get money for not working while I still have to, so long as it saves folk, but I'll compromise and say that those who refuse the jab can gestate in their own ire for science away from society at large while it works to sort out this mess.

One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.

We just had something like that happen in Florida, the very prospect of so many doctors coming out in support of a press conference caused such a scare that the media presumed it was a walk-out. Sometimes, you have to lead that horse to water and force its head in the drink before it realizes it needs that fluid to live...

Seems to me like the problem is solving itself.

And then the mask slips on the other side. Very compassionate. Much wow.

 

[Jayro]

And then the mask slips on the other side. Very compassionate. Much wow.

Sorry, not Sorry. But if people are too stupid and ignorant to get vaccinated and then die of covid, you won't see a single tear shed from me. (Excluding the immuno-suppressed people who can't have the vaccine, of course.)

 

[Foxi4]

I don't think I'm wearing some sort of "Freedom for all, always!" facade with this. I believe the power of the government should absolutely be used to save lives even at the cost of personal freedoms during an emergency situation. Freedom only matters to the living, and I'd rather hear a survivor rage than mourn a silent fool. In my book, we should all still isolate a while longer and utilize the strongest government on planet earth to fund shutting down the government until this is more in check, even knowing I'm an essential employee who doesn't have the luxury of time off during the crisis. I don't care if folks get money for not working while I still have to, so long as it saves folk, but I'll compromise and say that those who refuse the jab can gestate in their own ire for science away from society at large while it works to sort out this mess.

The authoritarian types always have a good excuse for why the exercise of immutable rights should be "temporarily" suspended (temporarily meaning forever, since if the government can suspend it ad hoc then they're no longer rights), and it's usually the "greater good" du jour, I just wanted to establish that this is the case. I'm all for people self-isolating if they're unwilling or unable to get vaccinated, I just don't point a gun at them while I make the suggestion. I meant to establish whether you're suggesting to use force and coercion to get your desired outcome, and I think I got my answer, so I consider the subject fully exhausted.

And then the mask slips on the other side. Very compassionate. Much wow.

Does it? I never claimed that your choices don't come with consequences. That's not my fault now, is it? If you don't get the jab, which is free and accessible, and you catch the virus, that's on you. The difference here is that I don't force anyone to do anything whereas you're suggesting "using the power of the government" (which boils down to force, since the government has the most and the biggest guns) to either sequester people (false imprisonment) or make them undergo unwanted medical procedures (violation of bodily integrity). If that is not the case then you'll have to be more specific with your answer.

Sorry, not Sorry. But if people are too stupid and ignorant to get vaccinated and then die of covid, you won't see a single tear shed from me. (Excluding the immuno-suppressed people who can't have the vaccine, of course.)

Their body, their choice, no? I'm of the same mindset. It's not like they weren't told, what they do from this point onward isn't my problem.

 

[LinkmstrYT]

One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.

Pretty much happening in so many hospitals in places that are heavily affected. Most patients that have the virus aren't even vaccinated and are basically filling up every single bed.

To make matters even worse, there are other patients that have other complicated health problems that need to get admitted into those hospitals and to use those beds and such, but can't because all the doctors and nurses are all too busy and no room left. So those poor folks have to stay out in the hallways for hours or even days to finally get admitted.

 

[Dakitten]

The authoritarian types always have a good excuse for why the exercise of immutable rights should be "temporarily" suspended (temporarily meaning forever, since if the government can suspend it ad hoc then it's not a right), and it's usually the "greater good" du jour, I just wanted to establish that this is the case. I'm all for people self-isolating if they're unwilling or unable to get vaccinated, I just don't point a gun at them while I make the suggestion. I meant to establish whether you're suggesting to use force and coercion to get your desired outcome, and I think I got my answer, so I consider the subject fully exhausted.
Does it? I never claimed that your choices don't come with consequences. That's not my fault now, is it?

I just find it funny that on one hand, you mock the idea of postponing freedoms for a greater good, then mock those who are failed by their government's unwillingness to save its people. Yes, I think the law should be involved in making isolation mandatory for those who refuse to get vaccinated and still want to run about as though there isn't a viral outbreak. I think there should also be a request of the populous in general to isolate a while longer while we wait for the vaccine to be ready for children, who are already running into the pandemic face-first when they aren't in a position to even understand all the facts, let alone take responsibility for them.

I know you like to believe that DA GUBBERMENT is some kind of boogieman that gobbles up power and then uses it to commit atrocities while never yielding anything back, but it kinda exists for a purpose and as an extension of the will of the people in a representative democracy. How much representation is being reflected in the government at any time is a subject for some fierce debate, to be sure, but it isn't some kind of jabberwocky sith hybrid baby conceived of by satan after he watched some puppy sodomy and thought "I can be more evil somehow..." Emergency powers should be utilized, then ended after the emergency. Simple and sweet.

 

[Foxi4]

I just find it funny that on one hand, you mock the idea of postponing freedoms for a greater good, then mock those who are failed by their government's unwillingness to save its people. Yes, I think the law should be involved in making isolation mandatory for those who refuse to get vaccinated and still want to run about as though there isn't a viral outbreak. I think there should also be a request of the populous in general to isolate a while longer while we wait for the vaccine to be ready for children, who are already running into the pandemic face-first when they aren't in a position to even understand all the facts, let alone take responsibility for them.

The government hasn't failed them - they made the vaccine accessible to anybody willing to take it. You can get a jab drive-through style, the inconvenience has been reduced to almost nothing. These patients made a bad call in regards to their personal health, the only person responsible for that is them. Let them be a warning for others - it's free, you should take it, so that you don't end up in an ICU yourself. It's not for you to judge what "position" they're in or what they can or can't understand - you don't make decisions on behalf of other grown adults, particularly not in regards to their own health. Very simple stuff.

I know you like to believe that DA GUBBERMENT is some kind of boogieman that gobbles up power and then uses it to commit atrocities while never yielding anything back, but it kinda exists for a purpose and as an extension of the will of the people in a representative democracy. How much representation is being reflected in the government at any time is a subject for some fierce debate, to be sure, but it isn't some kind of jabberwocky sith hybrid baby conceived of by satan after he watched some puppy sodomy and thought "I can be more evil somehow..." Emergency powers should be utilized, then ended after the emergency. Simple and sweet.

Oh, I know what the government is, what purpose it serves and what it is and is not empowered to do. The common misconception on your side is that it's supposed to be Superman. All I'm saying is that my immutable rights supercede government mandate, and they do. There is no emergency anymore - anyone can get vaccinated and be (relatively) safe from the virus. Not immune by any means, but not at a severe risk of death, which is acceptable. The time for an emergency, as in a threat that we could not effectively counteract or control, is over. This is simple stuff - there's a biological agent suspended in the air and can kill you - if you can't stop it, it's the government's job to warn the population and suspend everyday activities until we have means to prevent that agent from killing people. Once those measures are developed, this need no longer exists.

Here's an analogy - by some miracle or act of magic the floor is suddenly lava. If you step on it, you die, and we don't know how that works or how to stop it. You would *expect* the government to cordon off the floors in the country so as to prevent people from bursting into flames at random through *no fault of their own*. If we later develop magical shoes that let you walk on lava, it is encumbent on the government to distribute said magical shoes so that everybody can return to their normal lives. Now, let's say someone refuses to accept the magical shoes - if they burst into flames, that's on them. They've been given all the opportunities to elect to wear them and *chose not to*, so their fiery demise is *their fault*. It is not encumbent on the government to *make them* wear magic shoes, we can only try to convince them that it's probably a good idea to get a *free pair*, courtesy of Uncle Sam. There is zero liability that follows after someone refuses life-saving preventative measures, it's an individual choice which automatically transfers all responsibility.

 

[The Catboy]

Its hard to come up with something that doesn't exist.

I am just going to keep coming back and asking the same question until I am finally on the ignore list of every anti-vaxxor on the site.

 

[subcon959]

Here's an analogy - by some miracle or act of magic the floor is suddenly lava. If you step on it, you die, and we don't know how that works or how to stop it. You would *expect* the government to cordon off the floors in the country so as to prevent people from bursting into flames at random through *no fault of their own*. If we later develop magical shoes that let you walk on lava, it is encumbent on the government to distribute said magical shoes so that everybody can return to their normal lives. Now, let's say someone refuses to accept the magical shoes - if they burst into flames, that's on them. They've been given all the opportunities to elect to wear them and *chose not to*, so their fiery demise is *their fault*. It is not encumbent on the government to *make them* wear magic shoes, we can only try to convince them that it's probably a good idea to get a *free pair*, courtesy of Uncle Sam. There is zero liability that follows after someone refuses life-saving preventative measures, it's an individual choice which automatically transfers all responsibility.

What if every person that chooses not to wear the magic shoes pushes 5 other people already wearing the shoes off balance and they fall in the lava?

 

[Foxi4]

What if every person that chooses not to wear the magic shoes pushes 5 other people already wearing the shoes off balance and they fall in the lava?

The 5 people will be fine since their own magic shoes will protect them... unless they're not wearing magic shoes either, in which case they have nobody to blame but themselves. I can make this assertion with a high degree of confidence thanks to hospital records - 99%+ of new ICU admissions are people not wearing magic sneakers. From that I extrapolate that people who do wear magic sneakers are, for the most part, protected - they might get a mild sun tan while watching their non-sneaker-wearing neighbours spontaneously combust, but I'm not going to treat mild sniffles as a life-threatening condition. This is basic personal responsibility, is that not a thing anymore?