Covid-19 vaccine

[Sicklyboy]

You think I would lie about that? LOL

https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/ind...=Transmission of COVID-19,hours in some cases.

I do because two paragraphs later they recommend wearing face masks to help prevent the spread. So yeah, you're full of shit.

There are straightforward steps that can be taken to reduce the potential for airborne transmission of COVID-19 and the focus of this material is on those measures. The layout and design of a building, as well as occupancy and type of heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system, can all impact potential airborne spread of the virus. Although improvements to ventilation and air cleaning cannot on their own eliminate the risk of airborne transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, EPA recommends increasing ventilation with outdoor air and air filtration as important components of a larger strategy that may include physical distancing, wearing cloth face coverings or masks, surface cleaning , handwashing, and other precautions. Consult guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and local authorities on current guidelines on the use of masks.

Emphasis mine.

Edit - also just want to point out that they recommend to consult CDC guidance on the current guidelines for the use of masks, indicating that they are well aware they are not the proper avenue for that information to be coming from.

 

[Lacius]

Wow pretty combative.

Sorry you don't understand my point. I never said there is no benefit to masks.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



You think I would lie about that? LOL

https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/indoor-air-and-coronavirus-covid-19#:~:text=Transmission of COVID-19,hours in some cases.

The article you linked to is an explanation, in part, for why mask-wearing is recommended.

 

[Lacius]

So what about it being airborne now you believe me because you seemed to skip over that after demanding proof. I proved the EPA said this and you say I am full of shit.

So back to the start, IF covid-19 particles can remain airborne for hours, do you know how small they are?

You believe a surgeons mask or a cloth mask will filter a particle out of this size?

As your own article states, COVID-19 infection largely occurs from saliva droplet inhalation, and masks are effective at blocking some droplets of varying sizes. In addition, you are ignoring the preponderance of studies that show masks and mask mandates to work. Why?

 

[Dakitten]

So what about it being airborne now you believe me because you seemed to skip over that after demanding proof. I proved the EPA said this and you say I am full of shit.

So back to the start, IF covid-19 particles can remain airborne for hours, do you know how small they are?

You believe a surgeons mask or a cloth mask will filter a particle out of this size?

You likely missed my post amidst the dog pile, but this thread has to, by necessity, be the dunk hour v antimask/antivax folk due to the severity of the situation. Extraordinary claims like yours requires extraordinary evidence, and as we've all stated a few times now, your sources mainly serve to prove you wrong.

 

[Sicklyboy]

I proved the EPA said this and you say I am full of shit.

Because you're deliberately posting partial information that is twisted to fit your own agenda without painting the full picture that proves your agenda wrong, yes. That is what we like to call "full of shit"

IF covid-19 particles can remain airborne for hours, do you know how small they are?

I know that they're called virions, for one, not particles. I know that the size of one SARS-CoV-2 virion is ~0.1 μm because that's easily able to be Googled. I also know that when a person exhales, you're not just breathing 100% purely virions with nothing else in your exhalation. I know that the size of a respiratory droplet, which is what masks are claimed to HELP prevent the spread of, are considered to be larger than 5 μm in size, so potentially 500x larger than a single SARS-CoV-2 virion (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143281/) And I know that masks offer both mechanical and electrostatic filtration that HELPS to reduce the amount of respiratory droplets you spread of a wide variety of sizes, larger and smaller than 5 μm. (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252)

I also know that you're not an expert in this field, and I know that I'm not either. I also know that the prevailing world-wide recommendation points to masks being partially helpful in preventing the spread, and I know that you're choosing to put your hands on your ears and pretend you can't hear it.

You believe a surgeons mask or a cloth mask will filter a particle out of this size?

Put on a mask, hold a piece of tissue in front of your mouth, and cough. Hack up both lungs if you want. How much saliva do you see on it? Take the mask off and do it again. You may see some, you may not. Not every cough, sneeze, or exhale is the same. Not every mask is the same. There's no silver bullet or else we'd have used it already and we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? The best we can do right now is to do everything in our power to try to help reduce the rate at which it spread. Which is what some of us have been trying to stress for the past year and a half, meanwhile we have people like you that deliberately do the opposite and then bitch and moan and complain when nothing works and you have to face the consequences of your own dumbass actions.

Edit 2 - in fact, I'll do you one better. Do the same but don't even bother looking at how much saliva is on it, hold it one handed and look at how much it moves each time. You'll very, very easily see that if absolutely nothing else with the mask on the velocity of your exhaled air, and thus the respiratory droplets and any SARS-CoV-2 "particles", as you like to call them, that are contained within, are not going to go nearly as far. This is a science experiment that a literal third grader could come up with, dude. This isn't some high IQ big brain shit, and if it was, you're not qualified to talk on it like you're an expert.

Edit:

Who is spreading misinformation here?

You. You are spreading misinformation.

 

[Sicklyboy]

You are twisting what I said to meet your definition of misinformation. I was told to post a link to an EPA article claiming Covid-19 was airborne and could travel greater than 6 feet. I did that.

You then all say, oh they say to wear masks, and then try to ignore the fact that basically the entire EPA article is focused on the fact that Covid-19 is airborne and a vector for transmission.

Dude nobody has argued it couldn't. If you think there's some kind of magic force field that stops it after 6 feet, that's on you. Most reasonable people understand that it's a suggestion to help slow the spread, not a silver bullet cure. Remember that bit I said about not having a silver bullet?

From the EPA article this is the only portion that deals with masks that I can see:

There are straightforward steps that can be taken to reduce the potential for airborne transmission of COVID-19 and the focus of this material is on those measures. The layout and design of a building, as well as occupancy and type of heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system, can all impact potential airborne spread of the virus. Although improvements to ventilation and air cleaning cannot on their own eliminate the risk of airborne transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, EPA recommends increasing ventilation with outdoor air and air filtration as important components of a larger strategy that may include physical distancing, wearing cloth face coverings or masks, surface cleaning , handwashing, and other precautions. Consult guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and local authorities on current guidelines on the use of masks.

Thanks, I literally already posted that.

They say it MAY help, not that it does. They focus more on air exchange and air movement. Which makes sense to me.

Yes, it may help. They also say that you should consult the CDC instead of the EPA on the topic of masks.

You keep trying to tie different things together as an illustration to how my logic is flawed. Like surgeons wearing masks, Like that has anything to do with Covid-19 and how it propagates. If you are going to associate what I am saying to something completely unrelated then yes it is misinformation but that is NOT what I was saying. That seems to be you muddying the waters.

You keep trying to imply that this entire situation exists in a vacuum, that there is no possible way there could be other variables that come into play with any of it, and that everything that's ever been said about it is 100% magic guaranteed to never ever change.

For admitting you are not an expert you seem to suggest you know exactly how the virus propagates while wearing a mask.

Quite the contrary, I already said I'm not an expert. I also said you're not either.

If numerous places have determined that Covid-19 can exist in the air for hours that indicates exactly how small it can be.

OK? This was never disputed, so... congrats on being able to state the obvious?

Surgeons masks and cloth masks will not stop something that small. They are not capable.of doing that.

Provide proof.

That is not misinformation. That has been my point the whole time.

Yes, it is. Provide proof to the contrary.

Edit for the lulz:

So it sounds like you have already decided what particle size leaves a mask and that a mask prevents any particles from leaving it.

Please, quote where I said or implied that. I'll wait.

 

[Sicklyboy]

How about this. Can you provide any study that shows that positive covid-19 patients who are shedding with what would be considered high to normal viral load levels who wear surgeons masks do not produce air borne particles? Or produce them at a measured level that is low enough to prevent propagation of Covid-19? That would suggest then my argument is truly pointless. Right?

Nobody is suggesting that someone COVID positive suddenly stops "producing air borne particles" or "produce them at a lower level" just because they put on a mask.

If you're looking effectiveness of masks on the transmissibility of the virus, that's information that's been very heavily publicized for well over a year now, so I suggest you pull your head out of the sand. For your reading pleasure:

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...g-science-sars-cov2.html#anchor_1619456988446
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6549/1439
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...9-transmission-significantly-study-finds.aspx

You would think by now if it was that easy to illustrate someone would have done it by now.

Not when you're asking a nonsensical thing.

I can't find anything suggesting that.

Because nobody is suggesting the nonsensical things that you are.

All I know is that surgeons masks and cloth masks won't block covid-19 that is airborne, way too small to do that.

Again, you keep saying this, but you keep failing to provide proof.

 

[Dakitten]

How about this. Can you provide any study that shows that positive covid-19 patients who are shedding with what would be considered high to normal viral load levels who wear surgeons masks do not produce air borne particles? Or produce them at a measured level that is low enough to prevent propagation of Covid-19? That would suggest then my argument is truly pointless. Right?

You would think by now if it was that easy to illustrate someone would have done it by now.

I can't find anything indicating that.

All I know is that surgeons masks and cloth masks won't block covid-19 that is airborne, the particle size can be way too small to do that.

Your horse is dead, quit beating it. NOBODY HAS STATED THAT THE VIRUS CANNOT BE CONTRACTED VIA THE AIR. You're literally fighting a ghost in your own head, and it is getting pathetic. Just admit you were mislead... or don't, shutting up is probably a good move too! But you've clearly lost your argument and there isn't any face to save at this point. Let it go.

 

[Sicklyboy]

Your horse is dead, quit beating it. NOBODY HAS STATED THAT THE VIRUS CANNOT BE CONTRACTED VIA THE AIR. You're literally fighting a ghost in your own head, and it is getting pathetic. Just admit you were mislead... or don't, shutting up is probably a good move too! But you've clearly lost your argument and there isn't any face to save at this point. Let it go.

We're at a page and a half of him arguing against things that he is making up himself while saying other people are making them up instead.

 

[RocaBOT]

I mean, between that and the previous pages where we had arguments about people that were going "oh they have a very small sample where some inflammation happened, hence it has to be causation and widespread", this thread is really going everywhere and nowhere

 

[Dakitten]

I mean, between that and the previous pages where we had arguments about people that were going "oh they have a very small sample where some inflammation happened, hence it has to be causation and widespread", this thread is really going everywhere and nowhere

At least we aren't arguing about hydroxy any more!

 

[RocaBOT]

That's a good thing, the southern wizard (aka our local nickname for Raoult in France, since I''m from there originally) has done enough on slowing global medical science for almost a year, we really don't need to keep at it now that he's in trouble for his mischief ^^
This whole HCQ stuff has done a lot of harm in slowing everything to check his unfounded claims, and he's also tainted the image of French medicine durably for the foreseeable future with his shit, definitely not a fan

 

[RocaBOT]

It has never been about filtering the finer particles, it has always been about reducing the range at which the bigger ones that contain a lot of the virus as well (and made most of the transmission on close contact) spread.
Everything you said was twisted to fit your idea that masks are useless, which they are not. All the studies they linked show very big correlation factors between masks and the slowdown of transmission of the virus, and it is a very good indicator that they most likely do something to help.
Yes, they're no miracle, yes you need to keep ventilation at a maximum in enclosed space even when wearing masks, but they do help, there's no denying that.
And that's exactly what you did this entire time, denying they are helpful.

 

[RocaBOT]

Yes, they would have had even more with no masks and no vaccines, that's the whole fucking point!

As I said, it is not a miracle solution, but it HELPS. Helping is all it does, it's one layer more of helping, you need all of them to slow down the spread (because at this point it's clear we cannot stop it altogether, it's way too late for that to even be possible outside of killing every human on earth, which is not exactly a "good" solution).

How hard is it to understand that having something, even if its effectiveness is relatively limited, is way better than having nothing, or worse something that makes it more dangerous?

How hard is it for you to accept that?

 

[Dakitten]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...d-vaccinated-still-falls-prey-to-delta-strain

So this is just an anomaly right? If they had not been wearing masks they would have more infections in your opinion?

I believe that surgeons masks can give people a false sense of security. Which likely leads to higher infections I bet and with Delta since it is more transmissible even more so. Because the masks are incapable of filtering our air borne covid 19 particles. I have already posted one study showing no difference in infection rates between mask and non-mask wearers and that was based on Alpha not Delta.

It is easy to prove that vaccinations even though they are not working like they intended help decrease hospitalizations.

The only anomaly is that you are still arguing. Again, you pull a source that doesn't actually help your point. Every resource that can prevent the spread at any level of effectiveness needs to be utilized if we want to curb the virus, and the quicker it gets done, the sooner we can prevent future mutations that can break through current vaccine immunities. Please, just stop.

 

[Lacius]

I have yet to see you post one single thing that counters my point that if is is airborne surgeons masks are incapable of filtering out particles that small.

You even tried to suggest earlier that covid 19 was not air born. Which I followed up with an EPA article stating it is, and all you could say is see they say wear a mask. I don't think you even understand how transmissible it is, and yet you feel like you can debate how effective surgeons masks are? Does not make a lot of sense to me.

You said: "You seem to assume covid 19 is easily transmissible through the air after 6 feet of distance and a mask."

I posted the Hawaii news because they have been mandated to wear masks this entire time (back to Alpha variant) and there counts are going up quicker based on percent then many other places that don't follow as strict of a mandate. If surgeon masks worked Hawaii should be doing better infection rate wise, they are not.

Plus as I said before there are at least 12 RCT's out there that show influenza is NOT slowed down by surgeons masks. It is highly unlikely Covid 19 would be different. Covid-19 is smaller and can be airborne for long periods of time. (indicating how very small it really can be)

Anyhow I am just repeating myself now, and I get it. A few of you really think surgeons masks work, I don't.

You can wear your mask and go into some place thinking you are good. I don't have that same confidence. And I feel bad for those who are really trying to avoid getting Covid-19 that take stock in it protecting them.

I left this thread four hours ago, and I find you still refusing to acknowledge the preponderance of scientific studies showing masks and mask mandates are effective.

As I said hours ago, COVID-19 is primarily contracted by inhaling saliva droplets that contain the virus. Masks are effective at blocking some of these droplets, and masks have been demonstrated to slow the spread of infection. Masks are not 100% effective. In fact, they're probably only about 50% effective, which is one of the reasons why vaccination is so important, but they work nonetheless.

Even if we hypothetically had no idea how masks were effective, we still have scientific data that shows they are effective.

 

[RocaBOT]

I have yet to see you post one single thing that counters my point that if is is airborne surgeons masks are incapable of filtering out particles that small.

You will not, because no one has ever argued that, you're literally fighting a straw-man here.

If surgeon masks worked Hawaii should be doing better infection rate wise, they are not.

You're taking it backwards. If they did not help at all, their situation would be way worse. You seem to have a very hard time just fathoming that, and it is very sad.

 

[Dakitten]

I have yet to see you post one single thing that counters my point that if is is airborne surgeons masks are incapable of filtering out particles that small.

You even tried to suggest earlier that covid 19 was not air born. Which I followed up with an EPA article stating it is, and all you could say is see they say wear a mask. I don't think you even understand how transmissible it is, and yet you feel like you can debate how effective surgeons masks are? Does not make a lot of sense to me.

You said: "You seem to assume covid 19 is easily transmissible through the air after 6 feet of distance and a mask."

I posted the Hawaii news because they have been mandated to wear masks this entire time (back to Alpha variant) and there counts are going up quicker based on percent then many other places that don't follow as strict of a mandate. If surgeon masks worked Hawaii should be doing better infection rate wise, they are not.

Plus as I said before there are at least 12 RCT's out there that show influenza is NOT slowed down by surgeons masks. It is highly unlikely Covid 19 would be different. Covid-19 is smaller and can be airborne for long periods of time. (indicating how very small it really can be)

Anyhow I am just repeating myself now, and I get it. A few of you really think surgeons masks work, I don't.

You can wear your mask and go into some place thinking you are good. I don't have that same confidence. And I feel bad for those who are really trying to avoid getting Covid-19 that take stock in it protecting them.

Key term, buttercup. "EASILY TRANSMISSIBLE" is in reference to the notion that it isn't from airborne particulates diluted over time and distance that we're worried about when we don face masks. Masks help to prevent saliva particulates from spreading the disease, which IS a very good vector over periods of time. My link talks about this. Other links posted by folks have referenced it. NOBODY IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY DEBATES THE VALUE OF MASKS IN GOOD FAITH! This is why you have a consensus of posters trying to tell you to eat your foot quietly in the corner.

 

[SyphenFreht]

Here watch this,

DR. Osterholm - Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research just said in the last 2 weeks regarding cloth/surgeon masks:

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-a...asks-provide-much-protection-we-think-bglhwy/

Watch from 2:15 on.

Is he just some conspiracy nut? He is the Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research.

I wonder how some of you will try and spin this one. He is saying pretty much exactly what I am saying, it is more dangerous saying they do help.

I must've missed the part where he explicitly said or otherwise implied that masks cause more harm than done. It's weird he would've mentioned that because in the transcription he states that, from the perspective of time concentration and average indoor scenarios, wearing a mask may only give your a few more minutes of protection, as opposed to an N-95 which allegedly could give you close to a half hour more.

So, first we need to dissect the doctor's exact stance: is he saying masks hurt us, or do they offer a shred of protection?

If it's the latter, what exactly is the argument? The fact that masks offer so little protection that it's pointless? If so, I see it like stat building. A little protection is always better than none, and if that last little bit is what I need to fend off the virus, I mean why not? Better safe than sorry, right?

 

[Sicklyboy]

Here watch this,

DR. Osterholm - Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research just said in the last 2 weeks regarding cloth/surgeon masks:

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-a...asks-provide-much-protection-we-think-bglhwy/

Watch from 2:15 on.

Is he just some conspiracy nut? He is the Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research.

I wonder how some of you will try and spin this one. He is saying pretty much exactly what I am saying, it is more dangerous saying they do help.

From the transcript of the video

SO WHEN YOU ASK WHAT CAN YOU DO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO PUT ON N95 OR FELL LIKE YOU CAN'T, THAT IS YOUR CHOICE BUT BOTTOM LINE THE FACE CLOTH COVERING IS ONLY GOING TO PROVIDE YOU LIMITED PROTECTION.

It -helps-. It's not a -cure-. It's not a -magic bullet- as I am stating for the third time. None of that disagrees with anything anyone here has said.