Children being sexually abused, given psychotropic drugs in ICE detention centers

[FAST6191]

In other words, you're suggesting anyone crossing the border is automatically guilty of other crimes as well. Guilty until proven innocent.

That does seem to be the the default position for anybody without a blue passport crossing the US border, and even those with such a thing still lose quite a few rights. I take great issue with a lot of things there but consistency would not be one of them.

Families were not separated under Obama.

This separation of families bit comes up a lot and I am not entirely sure why it is so contentious as a concept. The implementation and efforts to reunify (assuming no custodial sentence is being given to the adults involved) may need improvements but the idea of it all seems fairly sound to me if "catch and detain" is to be part of your border control policy.

 

[Clydefrosch]

Like wise, your country would have been a giant smoldering crater in the 40's.

and deservingly so.

 

[Kioku]

Why is it now that people are outraged over these appalling situations when a Republican is in office? Let alone blame him for doing what the guy before him was doing.

Its a political bias. Nothing more... Doesn't take away from the fact the issue is still going on, though.

What I'd like to know is why we're detaining children, yet sexual predators and violent illegals are allowed to roam.

 

[ChaosEternal]

Sorry I have to be so blunt, but pedos aren't humans. They're animals.

Hey now, don't conflate pedophiles and child molesters. That'd be like saying "Sorry I have to be so blunt, but gays aren't humans. They're animals." when you really meant "gay rapists." Current data suggests that the majority of child molesters aren't pedophiles (although I would imagine that the incidence rate among pedophiles is higher than the general population), so your anger is at least partially misplaced. Not to mention that's a cop out. They're just as human as the rest of us whether you like it or not. That humans can be that awful is just something that we all have to live with.

 

[JiveTheTurkey]

Its a political bias. Nothing more... Doesn't take away from the fact the issue is still going on, though.

What I'd like to know is why we're detaining children, yet sexual predators and violent illegals are allowed to roam.

I think because it's very easy to exploit and bring in child sex trafficking.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

If you own a company, you can hire these people for less than any other US resident would accept. This lets businesses be scumbags and increase the unemployment for non-skilled labor, since everyone would hire illegal immigrants. And no, just because someone didn't go to college or isn't particularly skilled doesn't mean that they deserve to live on the streets.

Help me understand why opportunistic businesses exploiting undocumented workers for cheap labor that would otherwise be illegal is an issue of immigrants stealing jobs rather than one of businesses being scummy and operating under inadequate oversight

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Comparing the authorities not wanting unregistered illegal immigrants to cross the border with the government spying you 24/7. Holy hyperbole batman.

Except... The authorities are literally there to intercept anyone crossing the border and give them assistance. They're not there strictly to detain them, as asylum seeking isn't a crime and a first time undocumented border crossing is only a misdemeanor (as @Xzi was suggesting, not unlike jaywalking, loitering, or driving with a taillight out). Immigration courts are there to assess whether or not the individual has committed asylum fraud (i.e. brought children that aren't theirs, crossed the border to distribute drugs, etc.), but up until the point that they have been found guilty of asylum fraud (and actually there's a lot of shady shit the courts do to get them to plead guilty now that family separation is a policy, but I'm not going to get into that now), they HAVE NOT committed a crime

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

What are they supposed to do, let them get into the country?

Well... Yes, actually, that is, assuming they haven't been found guilty of fraud then that's exactly what we're supposed to do. That's literally how our asylum process works

Give them to US foster homes? On what grounds? They aren't their children.

Best case that's correct, but worst case that's dangerously presumptuous. And, actually, that's already what's happening. If you want I can link you to a few articles of kids that have been tossed into the foster system and adopted! even though the parents are alive and may or may not have been deported, but were given no appeal

Kick them back outside the border while the parents are detained? That's even more cruel than simply detaining them.

Or, and hear me out, detain the family together as a unit. You seem to have just glossed right over that option as though it was somehow absurd

Or actually using them as sympathy cards to get to the border and hope to be left alone because you're carrying one.

That's... Not how our system works at all. You don't get "sympathy points" for having a child with you, EVERYONE who has crossed gets stopped and asked of their intent then detained, and depending on what their answer was and the verdict of their immigration court hearing either allowed asylum or deported back to their home country

 

[Song of storms]

Help me understand why opportunistic businesses exploiting undocumented workers for cheap labor that would otherwise be illegal is an issue of immigrants stealing jobs rather than one of businesses being scummy and operating under inadequate oversight

That's what's happening in Europe and no one is stopping them. Why will the US be different about this? If we do nothing, half the population of unskilled US citizens will be jobless. They can't just step up their education, especially if they just aren't cut to it. I refuse to let someone living legally here starve just because minimum wage became "too expensive" for businesses.

Except... The authorities are literally there to intercept anyone crossing the border and give them assistance. They're not there strictly to detain them, as asylum seeking isn't a crime and a first time undocumented border crossing is only a misdemeanor (as @Xzi was suggesting, not unlike jaywalking, loitering, or driving with a taillight out). Immigration courts are there to assess whether or not the individual has committed asylum fraud (i.e. brought children that aren't theirs, crossed the border to distribute drugs, etc.), but up until the point that they have been found guilty of asylum fraud (and actually there's a lot of shady shit the courts do to get them to plead guilty now that family separation is a policy, but I'm not going to get into that now), they HAVE NOT committed a crime

Again, they came here knowing very well what to expect. Unless you're pro-human trafficking.

Well... Yes, actually, that is, assuming they haven't been found guilty of fraud then that's exactly what we're supposed to do. That's literally how our asylum process works

Had it not been abused countless times, we wouldn't be having this problem. They should be mad at the people who wrecked the house, not the owner that got finally tired of it.

Best case that's correct, but worst case that's dangerously presumptuous. And, actually, that's already what's happening. If you want I can link you to a few articles of kids that have been tossed into the foster system and adopted! even though the parents are alive and may or may not have been deported, but were given no appeal
Or, and hear me out, detain the family together as a unit. You seem to have just glossed right over that option as though it was somehow absurd

Let's see these links.

 

[Xzi]

The implementation and efforts to reunify (assuming no custodial sentence is being given to the adults involved) may need improvements

"Improvements" would suggest they had any kind of plan to reunite these families before they separated them to begin with, which they didn't. If this hadn't been widely reported on and a judge hadn't ordered reunification, I seriously doubt they ever would've made any effort on it whatsoever. Even despite the minimal effort they are putting in, they've missed two deadlines for reunification already. Not to mention they're constantly bogging down the system by adding more children to these detention facilities.

Its a political bias. Nothing more... Doesn't take away from the fact the issue is still going on, though.

I'd criticize the shit out of Obama for building child detention centers in the blistering heat of South Texas, but that simply didn't happen. No president in my lifetime other than Trump would consider this moral, ethical, or legal. Even worse is that Trump's corporate cronies get paid for everything they put these kids through. Good ol' capitalism, as long as someone's getting paid it doesn't matter how many lives we ruin.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/20...tion-is-big-money-for-contractors-nonprofits/

 

[Song of storms]

"Improvements" would suggest they had any kind of plan to reunite these families before they separated them to begin with, which they didn't. If this hadn't been widely reported on and a judge hadn't ordered reunification, I seriously doubt they ever would've made any effort on it whatsoever. Even despite the minimal effort they are putting in, they've missed two deadlines for reunification already. Not to mention they're constantly bogging down the system by adding more children to these detention facilities.


I'd criticize the shit out of Obama for building child detention centers in the blistering heat of South Texas, but that simply didn't happen. No president in my lifetime other than Trump would consider this moral, ethical, or legal. Even worse is that Trump's corporate cronies get paid for everything they put these kids through. Good ol' capitalism, as long as someone's getting paid it doesn't matter how many lives we ruin.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/20...tion-is-big-money-for-contractors-nonprofits/

Do you consider moral attempting to cross the border with your kids knowing well what will happen if you do?

 

[Xzi]

Do you consider moral attempting to cross the border with your kids knowing well what will happen if you do?

We have nothing to discuss as long as you continue to assume every asylum seeker is a criminal. It's an entirely legal process that the Trump administration wants to illegally ignore because of skin color. Hell, they even deport naturalized citizens, which is 100% indefensible, and an action reserved almost exclusively as a consequence for war crimes.

Indeed, the creation of the task force itself is undoing the naturalization of the more than twenty million naturalized citizens in the American population by taking away their assumption of permanence. All of them—all of us—are second-class citizens now. The President calls immigrants “animals.” The Attorney General presumes that everyone crossing the border—or at least the southern border—is a criminal.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-...ns-no-longer-have-an-assumption-of-permanence

Super relevant quote to this whole situation, with Mexicans being the new boogeyman:

President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

EDIT: (Aug 1) There are now reports of a child dying in an ICE detention center after negligent care. ICE is claiming it didn't happen, so I'm waiting for further confirmation before posting an article on it.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

That's what's happening in Europe and no one is stopping them. Why will the US be different about this? If we do nothing, half the population of unskilled US citizens will be jobless. They can't just step up their education, especially if they just aren't cut to it. I refuse to let someone living legally here starve just because minimum wage became "too expensive" for businesses.

... what? Minimum wage should be considered a business expense, if a business can't pay that much then they deserve to die out. Just because they take advantage of people living here without citizenship papers doesn't make that particular issue any less their fault

Again, they came here knowing very well what to expect. Unless you're pro-human trafficking.

Yeah, they come here expecting this, not the "zero-tolerance policy" that was enacted recently

Had it not been abused countless times, we wouldn't be having this problem. They should be mad at the people who wrecked the house, not the owner that got finally tired of it.

What? Really? Are you really going to blame bad actors for forcing the hand of a federal agency that should be expected to be able to separate threats from non-threats? That's... shallow, to say the least, an excuse to say a bit more.

Let's see these links.

Yeah sure thing buddy
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...nistration-after-family-separation/734874002/
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/01/separated-children-adoption-immigration/
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/i...rant-family-separations-are-permanent-n884391
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/i...grant-children-they-are-coming-crying-n884791
https://consideringadoption.com/news/what-happens-to-migrant-children-separated-from-their-parents
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ion-court-parents-separated-children-families

 

[Song of storms]

We have nothing to discuss as long as you continue to assume every asylum seeker is a criminal. It's an entirely legal process that the Trump administration wants to illegally ignore because of skin color. Hell, they even deport naturalized citizens, which is 100% indefensible, and an action reserved almost exclusively as a consequence for war crimes.

Any illegal immigrant is likely to turn into a criminal. Race and gender can be factors, but just any person can turn into a danger for society. You have people who live in different cultures hoping to get better lives somewhere else where fresh college degree students queue up for the privilege to work for Burger King. Of course a lot of them will turn into illegal activities to survive. Some will even want more and join drug and human trafficking. That's how it works and what's happening in Europe is a prime example of it.
[/QUOTE]

... what? Minimum wage should be considered a business expense, if a business can't pay that much then they deserve to die out. Just because they take advantage of people living here without citizenship papers doesn't make that particular issue any less their fault

You'll see a law forbidding black people to breed rather than let businesses have less shady business practice. That's how fucked the business world in the US is right now.

Yeah, they come here expecting this, not the "zero-tolerance policy" that was enacted recently

Had it not been abused countless times, we wouldn't be having this problem. They should be mad at the people who wrecked the house, not the owner that got finally tired of it.

What? Really? Are you really going to blame bad actors for forcing the hand of a federal agency that should be expected to be able to separate threats from non-threats? That's... shallow, to say the least, an excuse to say a bit more.

How can you separate a threat from a non-threat if the country of origin often doesn't want to cooperate? The issue is getting too big. It sucks for the few people who would actually be good US citizens but they have to thank the countless criminals that crossed the border and are responsible for a lot of murders.

Yeah sure thing buddy
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...nistration-after-family-separation/734874002/
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/01/separated-children-adoption-immigration/
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/i...rant-family-separations-are-permanent-n884391
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/i...grant-children-they-are-coming-crying-n884791
https://consideringadoption.com/news/what-happens-to-migrant-children-separated-from-their-parents
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ion-court-parents-separated-children-families

From the very first link you posted:

Reports surfaced of mothers who were told that their children would be adopted as an incentive to “behave.”

So yeah, they knew about this before getting there. Keep in mind that the zero-tolerance policy happened 4 months ago, not one hour ago.


And, just to clarify once again, since I've seen some accusations I don't like: I have nothing against any race or gender. Being against any person trespassing the border illegally is not "racism".

 

[Xzi]

Any illegal immigrant is likely to turn into a criminal.

The vast majority of illegal immigrants come here to work. There'd be no point in coming here just to turn around and get arrested/deported for criminal activity immediately. The statistics are definitely against you on this one.

Race and gender can be factors, but just any person can turn into a danger for society.

So let's just start assuming people are guilty of crimes that haven't happened and go full Minority Report? Or should we just presume innocent until found guilty for everyone, the way the law was established in the first place?

 

[Song of storms]

The vast majority of illegal immigrants come here to work. There'd be no point in coming here just to turn around and get arrested/deported for criminal activity immediately. The statistics are definitely against you on this one.

They come here to work at first. What do you do after you've been turned down everywhere? What if you have an addiction already? What if you get caught by a criminal organization promising you easy money?

 

[Xzi]

They come here to work at first. What do you do after you've been turned down everywhere? What if you have an addiction already? What if you get caught by a criminal organization promising you easy money?

"What ifs" are irrelevant to law enforcement. You need proof of a crime before accusing someone. Like I said, the only other option is to devolve into a police state where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent.

You've hit on a big problem with America, though: poverty and wage disparity driving crime rates. In one of the richest nations on Earth, we can't even agree that the people who need help, regardless of race, should receive it. Instead it's just as the LBJ quote stated: we're emptying our pockets to give out a bunch of corporate welfare to people that both don't need it and didn't earn it. Immigration is just a distraction while the real criminals fleece this country for all it's worth. Deporting people isn't going to increase wages or help get anyone out of poverty.

 

[Song of storms]

"What ifs" are irrelevant to law enforcement. You need proof of a crime before accusing someone. Like I said, the only other option is to devolve into a police state where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent.

You've hit on a big problem with America, though: poverty and wage disparity driving crime rates. In one of the richest nations on Earth, we can't even agree that the people who need help, regardless of race, should receive it. Instead it's just as the LBJ quote stated: we're emptying our pockets to give out a bunch of corporate welfare to people that both don't need it and didn't earn it. Immigration is just a distraction while the real criminals fleece this country for all it's worth. Deporting people isn't going to increase wages or help get anyone out of poverty.

We need to help poor people regardless of race and gender, but the US citizens have the priority. You're going to make preferences whenever you need to help more than one person and that's perfeclty normal. My preference is to help people who are legally here first. Is it that bad?

 

[Xzi]

We need to help poor people regardless of race and gender, but the US citizens have the priority. You're going to make preferences whenever you need to help more than one person and that's perfeclty normal. My preference is to help people who are legally here first. Is it that bad?

You're not listening. We're not helping anyone in poverty, if anything we've been slowly eliminating social safety nets under Trump, and that's a Republican tradition dating all the way back to Reagan closing down all mental health treatment centers. At the same time, this country has the resources to instantly fix the problem for our own people and anyone living here under asylum/naturalized citizenship, we just choose to spend that money on tax breaks for corporations instead of doing anything to lift up the middle/lower classes. There are way more empty houses across America than there are homeless people. It's just a choice we make to follow the hypocritical rule set of this pyramid scheme-style capitalism. An empathy gap and a short-sightedness. The next economic crash isn't far off, which is why the rich are vacuuming up so much money while they can, so that they feel insulated when it does happen. Good luck to everybody below a certain level of job security/income at that point.

 

[SG854]

"What ifs" are irrelevant to law enforcement. You need proof of a crime before accusing someone. Like I said, the only other option is to devolve into a police state where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent.

You've hit on a big problem with America, though: poverty and wage disparity driving crime rates. In one of the richest nations on Earth, we can't even agree that the people who need help, regardless of race, should receive it. Instead it's just as the LBJ quote stated: we're emptying our pockets to give out a bunch of corporate welfare to people that both don't need it and didn't earn it. Immigration is just a distraction while the real criminals fleece this country for all it's worth. Deporting people isn't going to increase wages or help get anyone out of poverty.

Wage Disparity does cause crime. But Poverty doesn't cause crime. Relative Poverty causes crime. A big notable difference.
When everyone is poor crime doesn't go up. It only goes up when there's poor people along with rich people. This is due to hierarchical tendencies in humans.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Wage Disparity does cause crime. But Poverty doesn't cause crime. Relative Poverty causes crime. A big notable difference.
When everyone is poor crime doesn't go up. It only goes up when there's poor people along with rich people. This is due to hierarchical tendencies in humans.

Not even rich people, I'd argue if a poverty district is anywhere near even a lower-middle class district there will be people desperate enough to try to steal things they consider necessary to survive

You're also, I think, ignoring gang activity that thrive by offering "protection" to susceptible youth, although one could argue that the police/other gangs are the higher class

 

[dAVID_]

Meanwhile this happens all the time in prisons (not just in the US) and yet nobody cares, it's when it affects the children that the media pays attention.

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Meanwhile this happens all the time in prisons (not just in the US) and yet nobody cares, it's when it affects the children that the media pays attention.

I know that a lot of people on the left side of the spectrum at least have been causing a ruckus about treatment of prisoners for ages now, so that's really not true...