Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...

[Whole lotta love]

Because simply disagreeing with the way the trans movement is being played out doesn't make you phobic of anything. If I were transphobic please explain to me or to my trans friends who aren't involved in the current movement why I'm phobic. Simply disagreeing with the way things are doesn't mean you have a phobia. You realize I'm open to dating a trans individual and like I already said I have trans friends who think people who are abusing the term transphobic is wrong.

Of course disagreeing with tactical decisions is not transphobic. However, arguing that trans people are mentally ill can be cured is transphobic, which it sounds like you're arguing. You are confused about the definition of "transphobia" based on your original post. Transphobia is defined as:

dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

It is not like arachnophobia, but more refers to reactionary prejudice and not an autonomous response to certain stimuli.

Your original example of the McDonalds worker would be transphobic if they decided they didn't like the trans customer because they were trans. The degree to which they chose to punish this trans person is irrelevant to the original question of whether or not they hold prejudice against trans people.

Also, the DSM categorizes trans people with a mental disorder, but having a mental illness is nothing to be ashamed about as I also have friends who are mentally disabled.

No it doesn't. Please provide a source in the DSM-5 that states that.

I also disagree with how many homosexuals go about doing things. I've had long talks with some of my homosexual partners about this. Clearly, since I simply disagree (like with the trans movement) I am homophobic, correct? You see how moronic that is. Homophobic people don't date other men on a regular basis. Simply disagreeing with a current movement or a particular group of trans people and how they conduct themselves doesn't make you phobic of anything.

Just as Bell Hooks eloquently described women being crucial to the system of patriarchy, Having homosexual relationships doesn't absolve you from homophobia.
If a black american is calling for slavery to be started up again, how could you argue that he was not being racist? Reactionary beliefs can be internalized.
I find it hard to believe that you are so into identity politics that you believe that any one person is absolved of prejudice simply because of their identity.

Labeling other people with a word with the intent to manipulate and control them because you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions and also because you're intolerant of others beliefs and want silence them so you can continue to be irresponsible and force your will onto other people is wrong. Isn't that what the LGBTQ community is supposedly against? These LGBTQ members who are doing this need to stop.

I would love to know how you have found out what the LGBTQ community has agreed on as a bloc. How can I see that survey? Where are the meetings?
It sounds like you are generalizing an entire group based on a few experiences, again.

Also, the Daily Wire isn't the only example of trans predators trying to force shame others into sex. Reddit is full of others, even LGBTQ members who have been preyed upon.

I know this in a minority of trans people we're talking about (the ones calling you transphobic because you won't have sex with them). However, everyone seems to be focusing on minorities as the trans population is like 4% . So why is it okay for you to focus on minorities and not okay for me to do the same? You must also realize that was only one example of the many different ways the term transphobic is being used to justify hate.

Please cite your sources. I'm sorry that you feel this way but no one is going to believe you unless you back up your claims with facts.

You have literally cited ONE person making this claim and have moved some saying they represent the "trans movement" overall (whatever that is), to now claiming that one person represents a minority. Please show me that this is anything more than a small handful of people?

 

[MadMageKefka]

Like I said, it's constantly brought over because some people need to share their opinion, because they need everyone to agree with them.
It is allowed here to talk about anything, in the appropriate section, so it happens.
If people don't share controversial or unpopular opinion on any topic, there would be no discussion period.

On the gaming subreddit, alternatively, this thread would be deleted, because it would be offtopic.

Everything you say is true, and reddit was a bad example, but take a previous Switch-focused discord I used to run as a better example. We even had an (almost) no rules channel just for these sorts of topics, and it hardly ever came up. Idk, I just feel this site attracts it more than others.

 

[cots]

Yet you are making the slanderous statement that most transgenders are demanding sex from people then when they say no they are being called transphobic when it is a clear fact there is only 1 recorded incident of this ever happening. And like I previously said nobody is talking about the fact that 50% of transgenders get sexually assaulted as some point in thire life.

I said a minority of trans are doing that, never said the majority, funny though as I thought it's all about the minority (or does that only apply when it's convenient?). Also if you search through Reddit you'll find more than just one example - and that's just one site. Search more? I realize that trans people get assaulted more often than some other groups, but this thread isn't about this and while it's no excuse trying to force yourself on others when they don't want you is a good way to end up being hurt. Not that it makes it right, it's just how things work. Maybe if you want to discuss assaults on them start you own thread and I'll gladly share ways to stop certain behaviors that others would assault you for and also comment on good ways to defend yourself. I'm not going to get into that here because it's off topic.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Do you have any friends that aren't nerds? Maybe he would rather not spend his time with weird out of touch people. Judging him for not having friends is asinine, you don't know this man.

I never said I don't have friends, I've got plenty except they are scattered around various states that I'm not currently in. I'm talking people I've known for many years and trust. I don't count a random person at the bar that you slept with a few times a real friend. I also don't consider all of my various populated friends lists as friends, unless they are one of the friends that I've personally known in real life.

The person started with race bait then insulted me when he realized that it's probably not that smart to label someone as racist if they date people of others races, which also isn't any sort of valid indicator and then he tries to insult me over assuming I have no friends, which if that was the case there is also nothing wrong with that as I rather have no friends than a bunch of fakes ones. His petty attempts at attacking me failed.

 

[cots]

I said a minority of trans are doing that, never said the majority, funny though as I thought it's all about the minority (or does that only apply when it's convenient?). Also if you search through Reddit you'll find more than just one example - and that's just one site. Search more? I realize that trans people get assaulted more often than some other groups, but this thread isn't about this and while it's no excuse trying to force yourself on others when they don't want you is a good way to end up being hurt. Not that it makes it right, it's just how things work. Maybe if you want to discuss assaults on them start you own thread and I'll gladly share ways to stop certain behaviors that others would assault you for and also comment on good ways to defend yourself. I'm not going to get into that here because it's off topic.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



I never said I don't have friends, I've got plenty except they are scattered around various states that I'm not currently in. I'm talking people I've known for many years and trust. I don't count a random person at the bar that you slept with a few times a real friend. I also don't consider all of my various populated friends lists as friends, unless they are one of the friends that I've personally known in real life.

Of course disagreeing with tactical decisions is not transphobic. However, arguing that trans people are mentally ill can be cured is transphobic, which it sounds like you're arguing. You are confused about the definition of "transphobia" based on your original post. Transphobia is defined as:


It is not like arachnophobia, but more refers to reactionary prejudice and not an autonomous response to certain stimuli.

Your original example of the McDonalds worker would be transphobic if they decided they didn't like the trans customer because they were trans. The degree to which they chose to punish this trans person is irrelevant to the original question of whether or not they hold prejudice against trans people.


No it doesn't. Please provide a source in the DSM-5 that states that.



Just as Bell Hooks eloquently described women being crucial to the system of patriarchy, Having homosexual relationships doesn't absolve you from homophobia.
If a black american is calling for slavery to be started up again, how could you argue that he was not being racist? Reactionary beliefs can be internalized.
I find it hard to believe that you are so into identity politics that you believe that any one person is absolved of prejudice simply because of their identity.



I would love to know how you have found out what the LGBTQ community has agreed on as a bloc. How can I see that survey? Where are the meetings?
It sounds like you are generalizing an entire group based on a few experiences, again.


Please cite your sources. I'm sorry that you feel this way but no one is going to believe you unless you back up your claims with facts.

You have literally cited ONE person making this claim and have moved some saying they represent the "trans movement" overall (whatever that is), to now claiming that one person represents a minority. Please show me that this is anything more than a small handful of people?

One of the main authors of the sexuality based diagnosis in the DSM5 claims that even though trans are now considered less mentally I'll they are still mentally I'll. He wrote the diagnosis so I'll take his word for it. In the dsm4 it was a more severe illness, but with the dsm5 it's been downgraded. That's facts not my opinion. My opinion is there is nothing wrong with being mentally I'll and also the whole psychiatry establishment claims everyone has some sort of mental illness or disorder. I wasn't trying to shame trans because of this label as I was responding that it's a valid claim and I don't think being labeled mentally I'll makes you any less of a person. I don't recall the authors name of hand, but if you search for him given the limited info I provided for you you'll find his name and what he states just like if you'd spend some time reading Reddit you'd find the more examples of trans and other LGBTQ people doing what the sole single thread I linked to was doing. I don't have to provide you links, if you won't search yourself and want me to hand feed you then you're not going to learn anything.

Also, that was only 1 example of 3 links I presented dealing with the misuse of the term transphobic. If per say it only happened once to only that person would it be right? Would it be okay to try to force someone into sexual relations by shaming them with the word transphobic?

I do agree that you can be black and racist against black people. Look at the trendy movement of white people who are racist against other whites and also you can be homophobic and still have homosexual relationships, but it's not as likely to be the case and simply not liking someone because they are homosexual or transgender doesn't make you phobic of them.

I base things around the majority and have been joking about using the limited example of the trans person trying to shame people into sex. In reality, even though it happens more than the single example I linked to, it is still in the minority of circumstances which is why I also included the other examples that I linked to. This thread isn't solely addressing just that link, but the misuse of the term transphobic in general.

 

[SG854]

One of the main authors of the sexuality based diagnosis in the DSM5 claims that even though trans are now considered less mentally I'll they are still mentally I'll. He wrote the diagnosis so I'll take his word for it. In the dsm4 it was a more severe illness, but with the dsm5 it's been downgraded. That's facts not my opinion. My opinion is there is nothing wrong with being mentally I'll and also the whole psychiatry establishment claims everyone has some sort of mental illness or disorder. I wasn't trying to shame trans because of this label as I was responding that it's a valid claim and I don't think being labeled mentally I'll makes you any less of a person. I don't recall the authors name of hand, but if you search for him given the limited info I provided for you you'll find his name and what he states just like if you'd spend some time reading Reddit you'd find the more examples of trans and other LGBTQ people doing what the sole single thread I linked to was doing. I don't have to provide you links, if you won't search yourself and want me to hand feed you then you're not going to learn anything.

What author are you talking about that said that in DSM-5? Any hints since you forgot his name? What type of diagnosis did he describe? Do you remember that?

 

[cots]

What author are you talking about that said that in DSM-5?

I'm moving and don't have my main PC. All I have is this smart phone and don't have my bookmarks. He's real, he helped write the diagnosis and because of that I'll take his word. He's been mentioned numerous times in other LGBTQ thread on this site - if that helps any. I'm not setup to find his name right now as I'm struggling to just comment and navigate the net on this peice of shit phone. When I get my PC setup with internet on Tuesday I'll get you his name, but if you do some minor research (like reading threads NOT just using a crappy search engine like google) you'll come across his name as he is very vocal about defending his position. Remember it's been reclassified to a minor mental illness, not a major one like in the dsm4.

 

[Whole lotta love]

One of the main authors of the sexuality based diagnosis in the DSM5 claims that even though trans are now considered less mentally I'll they are still mentally I'll.

Please show me where it does.

He wrote the diagnosis so I'll take his word for it. In the dsm4 it was a more severe illness, but with the dsm5 it's been downgraded. That's facts not my opinion. My opinion is there is nothing wrong with being mentally I'll and also the whole psychiatry establishment claims everyone has some sort of mental illness or disorder. I wasn't trying to shame trans because of this label as I was responding that it's a valid claim and I don't think being labeled mentally I'll makes you any less of a person.

Modern editions of the DSM are written by a large team of scientists based on the bodies of scientific research for their specific fields, not one person, who you fail to cite. The DSM-5 was written by hundreds of scientists and clinicians from around the world.

Being trans is not listed as a disease in the DSM-5. It sounds like you are thinking of gender dysphoria, which often accompanies being trans, but is not exclusive to it, and is frequently treated effectively.

Also, that was only 1 example of 3 links I presented dealing with the misuse of the term transphobic. If per say it only happened once to only that person would it be right? Would it be okay to try to force someone into sexual relations by shaming them?

No, forcing people into sexual relations in any context is bad. However, if I'm to agree that this is what this woman was doing (which I don't think she was), that's just one person being an abuser and can't be generalized to the broad trans or LGBTQ+ community in any way.

I don't recall the authors name of hand, but if you search for him given the limited info I provided for you you'll find his name and what he states just like if you'd spend some time reading Reddit you'd find the more examples of trans and other LGBTQ people doing what the sole single thread I linked to was doing. I don't have to provide you links, if you won't search yourself and want me to hand feed you then you're not going to learn anything.

No, the burden of proof is on you. An argument is not rationally sound if you can't justify it's premises, and you have failed to justify your premises. You can talk about how you feel that the trans rights movement is bigoted all you want, but it doesn't make it a rational or coherent argument if you can't or won't back up your claims. This is very basic rationality.

 

[SG854]

I'm moving and don't have my main PC. All I have is this smart phone and don't have my bookmarks. He's real, he helped write the diagnosis and because of that I'll take his word. He's been mentioned numerous times in other LGBTQ thread on this site - if that helps any. I'm not setup to find his name right now as I'm struggling to just comment and navigate the net on this peice of shit phone. When I get my PC setup with internet on Tuesday I'll get you his name, but if you do some minor research (like reading threads NOT just using a crappy search engine like google) you'll come across his name as he is very vocal about defending his position. Remember it's been reclassified to a minor mental illness, not a major one like in the dsm4.

Dr. Ray Blanchard? I was the one that mentioned him.

Transsexualism and mild forms of gender dysphoria is definitely a mental disorder. The name was changed in DSM-5 but the diagnosis is mostly the same. People think that since transsexualism is not in DSM anymore it’s not a disorder but thats a naive outsiders interpretation of it.

Transsexualism and Transgenderism are 2 different things, Transgenderism is an umbrella term while Transsexualism is extreme dysphoria. Blanchard explains it here in this interview and the reason for the renaming.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2019/05/ray-blanchard-transgender-orthodoxy/amp/

 

[cots]

Nevermind

 

[Whole lotta love]

Yes I know I own a copy and these many people all tackle various issues based on their expertise and he was on of the main people responsible for the specific diagnosis - not the sole responsible individual.

I already listed 1 link related to the shaming for sex issue and openly admit it's in the minority,

You haven't even demonstrated this exists beyond this one woman. That's not a minority, that's one person.

but you continue to focus on this one example like it invalidates the others I linked to and then claim that I must hold your hand to find the rest. Nice try, but you're not going to derail the entire issue at hand based on the fact you seem incapable of finding more examples. Go spend a few hours reading and maybe you'll learn something.

You linked to a reddit thread full of anonymous posts (who happen to agree with you), and an article written by a transwoman who uses a definition of transphobia almost no one else uses.

You would be better to build your argument off why the dictionary definition of transphobia is too encompassing, and should only characterize prejudice towards trans people that results in explicit acts contempt for their trans identity (as opposed to the current definition which refers to prejudice against trans identity).

I would love to read more but you won't back up your argument with anything so I have nothing to go off of. I just took a look through my DSM and nothing in it characterizes being transgender as a mental illness, indeed, the American Psychological Association, which publishes the DSM, disagrees with you.

Gender dysphoria is not the same as gender nonconformity, which refers to behaviors not matching the gender norms or stereotypes of the gender assigned at birth.

I also googled for this author you mentioned and can't find anything. Again, the burden of proof is on you.

You should do some more reading to learn about the scientific basic for non-binary gender identity.

Nature - US proposal for defining gender has no basis in science
Fausto-Sterling - The Five Sexes Revisited
Richardson - Sexing the X: How the X Became the "Female Chromosome"
Olson - When Sex and Gender Collide

Let me know if you'd like me to send actual studies and literature reviews. Since you don't have a scientific background the laymen material is a better way to dive in.

 

[osaka35]

Most


So according to your post,if I am afraid of or dislike murderers the problem is with me? I think "proper" humans have a moral compass that lets them discern from right and wrong.

I don't think most humans classify those who murder as a cultural or personal existence thing. I hope not at any rate.

The particular line you're referencing works in context, but not on its own. Probably best to read it within the frame I made.

I get your point though. Understanding doesn't mean agreement, but it does mean acknowledging there's always more to learn and possibly re-adjusting. A moral compass should be refined and recalibrated on an on-going basis. it is a thing crafted through culture, experience, and desire. Very human, so tends to be flawed from time to time. "common-knowledge", which is just biases handed down to us by those who raise us and other relevant influences, usually messes with it. This is why topics like this are discussed, so we can troubleshoot and expose flawed thinking that leads to false magnetic norths.

But generally, humans not hurting other beings and just doing their thing should probably be allowed to keep doing whatever.

 

[cots]

You haven't even demonstrated this exists beyond this one woman. That's not a minority, that's one person.



You linked to a reddit thread full of anonymous posts (who happen to agree with you), and an article written by a transwoman who uses a definition of transphobia almost no one else uses.

You would be better to build your argument off why the dictionary definition of transphobia is too encompassing, and should only characterize prejudice towards trans people that results in explicit acts contempt for their trans identity (as opposed to the current definition which refers to prejudice against trans identity).

I would love to read more but you won't back up your argument with anything so I have nothing to go off of. I just took a look through my DSM and nothing in it characterizes being transgender as a mental illness, indeed, the American Psychological Association, which publishes the DSM, disagrees with you.

I also googled for this author you mentioned and can't find anything. Again, the burden of proof is on you.

You should do some more reading to learn about the scientific basic for non-binary gender identity.

Nature - US proposal for defining gender has no basis in science
Fausto-Sterling - The Five Sexes Revisited
Richardson - Sexing the X: How the X Became the "Female Chromosome"
Olson - When Sex and Gender Collide

Let me know if you'd like me to send actual studies and literature reviews. Since you don't have a scientific background the laymen material is a better way to dive in.

The name of the author was posted by another member above. I disagree with peoples interpretation of transphobia and as another member pointed out who has a better understanding of language that it simply isn't a general dislike - it's an extreme one and this has been addressed already. A general dislike aka simply disliking or disagreeing with something isn't phobic. I'll read the links you provided. Thanks.

 

[SG854]

Yes I know I own a copy and these many people all tackle various issues based on their expertise and he was on of the main people responsible for the specific diagnosis - not the sole responsible individual.

I already listed 1 link related to the shaming for sex issue and openly admit it's in the minority, but you continue to focus on this one example like it invalidates the others I linked to and then claim that I must hold your hand to find the rest. Nice try, but you're not going to derail the entire issue at hand based on the fact you seem incapable of finding more examples. Go spend a few hours reading and maybe you'll learn something.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



I believe that's the guy. Sorry, but this entire moving and no PC access is nerve racking. To make things worse xenforo is buggy as hell on android and typing with my fingers when I have injury on a screen I can barely read isn't the optimal experience... I guess that's what I get for spending less than $100 USD on it. When I unpack and get internet access I'll check to see if that's him. I also only have 2GB of prepaid bandwidth and I've only slept 2 hours in the past 2 days and sore from moving a 2 bedroom apt by myself and I'm not even tired, just really mentally fuzzy (shared personal stuff now waits for the attacks)

This is just the living room... 7 hours one 10ft truck...dunno remember how many round trips

I don’t think the problems you say in the op is a big problem. Transgenders are around 1-2% of population. And even a smaller number of that will call you Transphobic for rejecting their advances. I agree that they shouldn’t do that but it’s just not big enough to worry.


I think you are badly explaining yourself because some things you say just comes off as off. Some of the stuff you say I have a hard time seeing your logic, and it’s really weird logic too. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you might have a point but are explaining yourself badly which others see it as transphobic or whatever.

 

[Deleted-401606]

I don't think most humans classify those who murder as a cultural or personal existence thing. I hope not at any rate.

The particular line you're referencing works in context, but not on its own. Probably best to read it within the frame I made.

I get your point though. Understanding doesn't mean agreement, but it does mean acknowledging there's always more to learn and possibly re-adjusting. A moral compass should be refined and recalibrated on an on-going basis. it is a thing crafted through culture, experience, and desire. Very human, so tends to be flawed from time to time. "common-knowledge", which is just biases handed down to us by those who raise us and other relevant influences, usually messes with it. This is why topics like this are discussed, so we can troubleshoot and expose flawed thinking that leads to false magnetic norths.

But generally, humans not hurting other beings and just doing their thing should probably be allowed to keep doing whatever.

What about activities that humans partake in a consensual manner that ultimately lead to their demise?

 

[SG854]

The name of the author was posted by another member above. I disagree with peoples interpretation of transphobia and as another member pointed out who has a better understanding of language that it simply isn't a general dislike - it's an extreme one and this has been addressed already. A general dislike aka simply disliking or disagreeing with something isn't phobic. I'll read the links you provided. Thanks.

Mild dysphoria and transsexualism is indeed a mental disorder, not all Transgenders suffer from dysphoria.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/expert-q-and-a


I also want to add when you go through the Nature article Whole lotta love linked it’s a criticism of the Trump administration and their policies and not a criticism of U.S. scientists, I just wanna make that clear.

 

[Pipistrele]

Oh, the good old "I'm not transphobe/racist/bigot but..."! My favorite kind of bigotry, makes for amusing threads <3

 

[Deleted User]

Oh, the good old "I'm not transphobe/racist/bigot but..."! My favorite kind of bigotry, makes for amusing threads <3

"I'm not trans-phobic/racist/bigot but I'm sexually attracted to white women."
Is that wrong? Like if your trans we can be friends, but I'm not sexually attracted to trans people... See my point how that's a really bad blanket statement?

 

[atlboyz_247]

The name of the author was posted by another member above. I disagree with peoples interpretation of transphobia and as another member pointed out who has a better understanding of language that it simply isn't a general dislike - it's an extreme one and this has been addressed already. A general dislike aka simply disliking or disagreeing with something isn't phobic. I'll read the links you provided. Thanks.

I understand that you are trying to prove that you shouldn't be distinguished as a homophobic person as the definition is defined on many credible sources, but as it stands, you fit under the umbrella of the definition as defined by the current definition as it stands today since you mentioned before how you've applied your discrimination of transgender people to the whole community based on the behavior of the few that you've encountered (one of your earlier posts mentions how you avoid transgender people due to the behaviors of a few and that you've legitimized this thought of discrimination because of them).

I'm not saying that you'd be wrong if the word was redefined to your liking, but as it currently stands, it is what it is due to the word being defined as it is, and it's hard to understand why you can't admit to this fact as it is true due to the way it is defined today.

I believe that most members that have been arguing against you just want you to admit that under the current definition, they're right. You may disagree and be uncomfortable with the statement, but it's the truth as the definition stands.

EDIT: Reading the whole thread made me forget the original purpose of your original post, and I understand that it undermines your current fight with the way it attacks every individual with the wide array of people it targets under the scope of the definition. But it serves its current purpose as extreme as it sounds because of the extreme prejudice transgender people face as a whole today. If you normalize the definition to a more appropriate level of your taste, it creates a blanket term for those that want salvation for their more extreme prejudices/discriminations to avoid what happened years before when the black community suffered from similar reactions from the majority (transgender is undeniably a minority).

 

[Pipistrele]

"I'm not trans-phobic/racist/bigot but I'm sexually attracted to white women."
Is that wrong? Like if your trans we can be friends, but I'm not sexually attracted to trans people... See my point how that's a really bad blanket statement?

That's hardly the way OP voiced it, though. Besides, it's not like anyone forces you to be sexually attracted to anyone - trans or not, I doubt any normal person will demand sex from you unless you're open for it, so trying to turn it into a problem instead of, well, just not going out with trans people, is a bit self-telling.

 

[Deleted User]

That's hardly the way OP voiced it, though. Besides, it's not like anyone forces you to be sexually attracted to anyone - trans or not, I doubt any normal person will demand sex from you unless you're open for it, so trying to turn it into a problem instead of, well, just not going out with trans people, is a bit self-telling.

People have argued that to me. Literately calling me trans-phobic because I didn't have sexual interest in them. (sexual as in attractive. not sex sex.) Which in itself was a problem. So I was proving the fact that there is a counter point to be made. Other than that one time it has happened. I have no problems with trans people. People are people, and should be treated as such.