Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...

[Skelletonike]

I've been called quite a few things. I don't really mind per se, but it does piss me off how toxic the "vocal" trans community can be.

I respect people no matter what their ethnicity or sexual preference is. However, if you do start making up random crap, or insult me due to my religious beliefs (which has been happening more and more often), I lose all respect for that person.

Unfortunately, there aren't many of the famous transgenders that I can actually respect.

 

[SG854]

Trans Activists try to silence and get scientists fired so they can claim science is on their side.

https://thefederalist.com/2019/05/22/trans-activists-silence-science-can-claim-side/

Trans activists excommunicating people.

https://quillette.com/2019/06/01/watching-my-own-excommunication-on-a-facebook-video/


This is the problem with Trans activists. They become crazy. Even some trans people don’t want to associate with them because they make trans look bad. The activists are a minority but are the loudest and get scientists fired.



Not being in support of trans activists is similar to not supporting feminism. You can be in support of women’s rights but not support feminism because of what they’ve become. (Only about around 20% identify as feminist nowadays). You can support trans people but not the actions of some activists because of what they do.

 

[Lacius]

Nobody ever in this thread said a word about transsexuals being "not acceptable".

Being against the trans rights movement is arguably tantamount to saying trans people should not be accepted.

Disliking something doesn't make it a phobia, but an extreme dislike that would cause you to act in a manner that wouldn't harm something would be a phobia. I'm against most of the way the movement is being handled. I don't see a trans person and suddenly think "I'm not going to like this person because they are trans". I do however take into consideration my person experiences with trans members and the life style choices that trans people usually make when considering who I would want to be around - this is no different than choosing what social group I would like to participate in or who I would want to play an online game with. When I meet someone, the first thing in my mind isn't "what is their skin color or are they LGBTQ". Not to say that never happens, but usually I'm more worried about how they are going to treat me or if they noticed that I'm wearing the same shirt I had on yesterday.

Say for example I see a bunch of people using drugs at a local night club. Not everyone is using them, but I'm going to avoid that club.

Or, if a group of people are playing Halo. Not my sort of game. I generally dislike FPS. So I'm not going to join their group and play the game with them.

You could swap out "black" for "trans", but we're not talking about an entire race of people. They sort of relate, but not equally. I've dated people that were black or otherwise dark skinned from different ethnicities.

When we say something is transphobic or homophobic, one shouldn't take that to literally mean a fear of something. I'd rather not argue semantics, but transphobia is defined as the dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people. To say about a trans person "I don't like this person's lifestyle choices so I probably won't like them" is to prejudge someone on the basis of him or her being trans. That's prejudice, which objectively makes you transphobic.

You can redefine the word transphobic if you want, but that's not how the rest of the world is using the term, and that makes having a conversation pointless.

I don't see a trans person and suddenly think "I'm not going to like this person because they are trans".

No, but you said, "I'm probably not going to like this person because they are trans."

Say for example I see a bunch of people using drugs at a local night club. Not everyone is using them, but I'm going to avoid that club.

Or, if a group of people are playing Halo. Not my sort of game. I generally dislike FPS. So I'm not going to join their group and play the game with them.

There's a big difference between these examples and prejudice against an immutable characteristic.

You could swap out "black" for "trans", but we're not talking about an entire race of people. They sort of relate, but not equally.

It's actually a perfect comparison, since we're talking about a historically disenfranchised group of people that has done nothing wrong other than share an immutable characteristic (which isn't wrong, of course).

If you're going to argue comments like "I disagree with the trans rights movement" and "I'm probably not going to like this person because they are trans" aren't transphobic, then to be consistent, you have to argue that comments like "I disagree with the black rights movement" and "I'm probably not going to like this person because they are black" aren't racist. That's difficult, if not impossible, to do, so your argument falls flat before it even gets the chance to take off.

I'm not trans, so I'm not going to attempt to speak for the trans community, but I'm probably correct when I say that nobody cares what you think about trans people. While your above comments are transphobic and bad, you have a right to be able to have prejudicial thoughts. What people care about are that you treat people with the dignity and respect they deserve at McDonald's, per your example, and that you don't hinder their access to equal treatment under the law by proposing and/or voting for policies and/or politicians that are anti-trans.

 

[invaderyoyo]

I have no problem with trans people, you can live however you want, but I generally try to avoid interaction with them because I'm basically forced to participate in something I don't believe in or change the way I talk.

For example I go to my local Swap Meet very frequently and a few of the stands are run by trans women. These people clearly don't have two X chromosomes, but in order to interact with them I have to play along by using female or neutral pronouns. It feels like I have to watch what I say and it's very uncomfortable.

I HAVE to play along even if I don't agree. It isn't like religion. I'm not religious at all, but a lot of the people in my life are very religious. Tolerance is enough here. I disagree with these people, but I don't have to go along with their religion or change the way I act around them. They understand that I don't believe like they do.

 

[cots]

If you're going to argue comments like "I disagree with the trans rights movement" and "I'm probably not going to like this person because they are trans" aren't transphobic, then to be consistent, you have to argue that comments like "I disagree with the black rights movement" and "I'm probably not going to like this person because they are black" aren't racist. That's difficult, if not impossible, to do, so your argument falls flat before it even gets the chance to take off.

I could disagree view the way black rights were implemented, but not be a racist. If the majority of black people that I have encountered acted the same way, did the same things, believed the same stuff, treated me the same way I and the only common factor was that they were "black" then I would treat them according to that factor. However, that's not the case with race. Race doesn't determine those factors. I have found, with my interactions with the trans people with this particular movement share common factors that I disagree with and the main correlation is that they are trans and involved in the movement. Therefore, I would be cautious when trying to get into any sort of relationship with them. Sorta like, you would be cautious around a particular group of bees that are known to get pissy and sting you. Not all of the group is going to do that, but the majority would. You wouldn't be phobic of bees for handling them that way - as remember, a phobia doesn't include simply not liking something (no matter how you try to spin the definition).

I'm not trans, so I'm not going to attempt to speak for the trans community, but I'm probably correct when I say that nobody cares what you think about trans people. While your above comments are transphobic and bad, you have a right to be able to have prejudicial thoughts. What people care about are that you treat people with the dignity and respect they deserve at McDonald's, per your example, and that you don't hinder their access to equal treatment under the law by proposing and/or voting for policies and/or politicians that are anti-trans.

You should be allowed to think whatever you want and under the United States Constitution say whatever it is that you are thinking. I agree that no matter what you think about a group of people you should treat every single person with respect - that includes not using the term transphobic in a controlling manner or not twisting the definition to suite your own needs. Of course, you don't have to treat someone with respect (an example is how trans people treat other people that don't agree with them). I am offended just as much from someone calling me transphobic (when I'm not) the same way as someone who is trans that is denied services because of being trans.

So your solution is what? Admit I'm transphobic? To do that I'd have to conform to their standards? I'd have to change my mind about the situation just so I wouldn't be targeted and labeled? Should I then drop on my knees in fear of being labeled when sex is demanded of me?

 

[SG854]

Simply disagreeing with the movement is not transphobic. That's a very closed minded view you have, there. Ironic, even. Attaching -phobic as a scapegoat to a disagreement is petty. Don't sit here and tell me that I have to agree with the blanket definitions of what it means to be transgender. I can respect the people, but I don't have to follow their belief. If that's the case then I'm Xenophobic for not agreeing with every country's religions. It's wrong, and you know it. You're passionate about the subject, I get it. Labeling someone as transphobic when they're clearly not is desperate.

What's funny is that society twists phobias to meet the current agendas. Even if it makes zero sense. Thus creating and enforcing buzzwords to garner hype and gain traction on otherwise minor issues. No, I'm not talking about the blatant hate that certain groups of people get for being who they are. I'm talking about the divide among what should be a unified race. Joke's on me, though. I'm a white, cis-gendered male. So, my opinions and views are instantly null and I'm wrong according to modern definitions.

The whole thing has gotten crazy. There’s a lot of in group fighting.


There’s activists that want to remove the T in LGBT (LGB) because the philosophy of the Trans movement are in contradiction with LGB, particularly the B. LGB believes in binary sex which is what the the B is, but the Trans movement opposes the B, since they believe in 80+ genders. They don’t believe in sexual dimorphism. So the B (bisexual) is transphobic because it’s exclusionary to non binary people. And they fight over this.


There are feminists that want to remove the L. There are Gender critical feminists that are opposed to male to female trans. They don’t believe a man can ever be a women.


Trans BLM got in a fight and a pride event was cancelled because trans wanted cops for protection, but BLM didn’t want any cops because they think cops are racist. So they got in a fight and the event was cancelled.


There is a saying that the left eats itself. The movements are a big giant contradiction.

http://uncommongroundmedia.com/lgbt-dead-t-blame/

 

[Clydefrosch]

Depending on who you ask you tend to get a different definition which is used or interpreted in a manner of their choosing. I'm going to stick with the definition of "phobia" from a normal dictionary. Wikipedia is known to be completely and utterly biased.

How is wikipedia biased? What the fuck are you even talking about?
And what dictionary are you using? Because Any run of the mill one would define 'phobia' in the medical or psychological context, which obviously does not apply to this conversation.

 

[AmandaRose]

The fact that the op keeps turning this into an argument regarding sex is quite frankly ludicrous. I for one have never demanded sex from someone not interested in having sex with me I have also never called someone transphobic for not wanting to have sex. I have also never witnessed anyone in the trans community do such a despicable thing. And I can assure you that if any British trans person did do such a thing they would be very quickly shunned by the community.

 

[Lacius]

as remember, a phobia doesn't include simply not liking something (no matter how you try to spin the definition).

If you are not going to acknowledge that transphobia is defined as the dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people, then I'm not the one who is spinning definitions. Disliking trans people is transphobic, by definition.

I'd love to respond to the other parts of your post, because there was a lot of fun nonsense to address, but as I said earlier, failing to agree on the definition of transphobia makes a conversation about what is or is not transphobic a pointless endeavor.

 

[cots]

I have no problem with trans people, you can live however you want, but I generally try to avoid interaction with them because I'm basically forced to participate in something I don't believe in or change the way I talk.

For example I go to my local Swap Meet very frequently and a few of the stands are run by trans women. These people clearly don't have two X chromosomes, but in order to interact with them I have to play along by using female or neutral pronouns. It feels like I have to watch what I say and it's very uncomfortable.

I HAVE to play along even if I don't agree. It isn't like religion. I'm not religious at all, but a lot of the people in my life are very religious. Tolerance is enough here. I disagree with these people, but I don't have to go along with their religion or change the way I act around them. They understand that I don't believe like they do.

Well, I have no idea how to correctly address a trans person - just I have no idea how to correctly identify the rank of someone in the army. So if I address them incorrectly it's not on purpose. If the person would be rather called a "Mr" or "Mrs" it would be polite of them to ask me to address them in that manner and it would be polite of me to then address them as they requested. There's no reason for them to get all pissy because you didn't address them in the correct manner they preferred in the first place.

I've been around some religious people, call them "true believers" that worship stuff and some of them can be very manipulative, demanding and cruel. They will make it part of their life to ruin yours until you believe what they do. I find no difference between these sorts of fanatical Christians than I do in the modern trans movement.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

If you are not going to acknowledge that transphobia is defined as the dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people, then I'm not the one who is spinning definitions. Disliking trans people is transphobic, by definition.

I'd love to respond to the other parts of your post, because there was a lot of fun nonsense to address, but as I said earlier, failing to agree on the definition of transphobia makes a conversation about what is or is not transphobic a pointless endeavor.

With any phobia, you're dealing with extremities. So yes, I do not acknowledged the definition you're using. Simply not liking a trans person because they chose to be trans is not a phobia. I don't like to eat grape jelly. I must be a racist or have a phobia against grapes.

Also, if per say, going by your definition, then the majority of the world is transphobic. Do we need to be 'cured'?

 

[k7ra]

Haaa~, how annoying this transusual ppl with this transgenders politic...
If they want to be them, then let them be.
But I should know who are they If we would talk or work.
Phobia=scare. I don't scared of gey\transgender\pedophile\killer\oldppl\childs or anything.
But I don't want to be deceived and have good relationship with any same gender lovers or with trap ppl.

 

[cots]

Haaa~, how annoying this transusual ppl with this transgenders politic...
If they want to be them, then let them be.
But I should know who are they If we would talk or work

Trans people, like any other group of people can do whatever they want as long as they don't try to force me into believing what they do or otherwise try to control me and then the result is them becoming hostile because I won't conform to their standards. I don't believe that I should be treated like scum because I simply disagree with their life style choices. I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm asking to not be targeted, called names and denied freedoms because they disagree with me.

 

[k7ra]

Trans people, like any other group of people can do whatever they want as long as they don't try to force me into believing what they do or otherwise try to control me and then the result is them becoming hostile because I won't conform to their standards. I don't believe that I should be treated like scum because I simply disagree with their life style choices. I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm asking to not be targeted, called names and denied freedoms because they disagree with me.

Yeap, you said all I think about

 

[Lacius]

With any phobia, you're dealing with extremities.

There are varying degrees of hate and discrimination. Take the following:

1. Someone attacks a black man on the sidewalk because he's black.
2. Someone locks his or her car door when a black man walks down the sidewalk because he's black.

While one is far worse than the other, both are racist acts. Something doesn't have to be as bad as #1 to be racist.

So yes, I do not acknowledged the definition you're using. Simply not liking a trans person because they chose to be trans is not a phobia.

Then I suggest you read up on transphobia.

Regardless, the kind of stubbornness you're displaying about something as simple as word usage means that, respectfully, you probably lack the maturity needed to thoughtfully deal with a more complex issue like gender identity, and I doubt anything I say is going to make you change your mind.

because they chose to be trans

Gender identity is not a choice.

I don't like to eat grape jelly. I must be a racist or have a phobia against grapes.

1. People aren't grapes, so in keeping with the fruit metaphors, you're comparing apples and oranges.
2. If you don't like black people, you're racist.
3. If you dislike trans people, you're transphobic.
4. If you dislike gay people, you're homophobic.
5. If you dislike Muslims, you're Islamophobic.

Not only is this part uncomplicated, but it's also not particularly controversial.

 

[cots]

Good starting point here for you
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/india-willoughby-celebrity-big-brother-trans-people-rachel-johnson-a8160656.html?amp

So I read it. Seems to me she has plenty of experience in the subject including the actual surgery and her views don't align with the popular views on the times. So she was raised up, praised, used and then thrown out by her community. Doesn't surprise me and I have more empathy for her now than I did before reading about her.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Gender identity is not a choice.

So what about the people that identify as a female to later in life then revert to identifying as a male?

 

[Lacius]

So what about the people that identify as a female to later in life then revert to identifying as a male?

Gender identity and gender fluidity are complicated issues, and I suggest you commit to going in with an open mind before reading up on these and other complicated topics. It takes a certain level of maturity to understand that, like sexuality in general, it's often not a black and white issue.

 

[cots]

Gender identity and gender fluidity are complicated issues, and I suggest you commit to going in with an open mind before reading up on these and other complicated topics. It takes a certain level of maturity to understand that, like sexuality in general, it's often not a black and white issue.

Well, I'm not going to debate the choices that people are making and the fact they are choices. That's not what I started this thread for. I'm stating that simply by disliking something you don't have a phobia. Which is what I stated, and you haven't presented any sort of convincing argument otherwise.

 

[AmandaRose]

So I read it. Seems to me she has plenty of experience in the subject including the actual surgery and her views don't align with the popular views on the times. So she was raised up, praised, used and then thrown out by her community. Doesn't surprise me and I have more empathy for her now than I did before reading about her.

So let me get this straight. She is 100% the type of trans person you hate so much and are posting about but because she has been disowned from the trans community for her despicable actions and words that you hate so much she is suddenly worthy of your empathy that is some seriously fucked up logic.

And for the record her having the actual surgery that I also have had has zero relevance to her actions.

 

[osm70]

Well, I'm not going to debate the choices that people are making and the fact they are choices. That's not what I started this thread for. I'm stating that simply by disliking something you don't have a phobia. Which is what I stated, and you haven't presented any sort of convincing argument otherwise.

Let me get this straight, so I actually understand what you are trying to say.

Is this your point?

"If I don't like trans people, it doesn't mean I am transphobic."

 

[Lacius]

Well, I'm not going to debate the choices that people are making and the fact they are choices. That's not what I started this thread for. I'm stating that simply by disliking something you don't have a phobia. Which is what I stated, and you haven't presented any sort of convincing argument otherwise.

Hate is not necessarily rooted in fear (although it often is), but transphobia extends far beyond fear. It's an umbrella term that encompasses the full range of negativity against people who are trans. Word origins are complicated, and they often should not be dissected 100% literally. For example, in science, oil is considered to be hydrophobic because it does not attract water. If you're going to argue with me that transphobia is restricted to fear because it has the root word phobia in it, then you should also be arguing that oil is not hydrophobic because it lacks the capacity to fear anything. That argument would be as absurd as it is pointless.

Whether or not you want to label your prejudice and hate for trans people transphobic, transist, etc. matters very little to me. However, I feel I've more than adequately explained to you what the word actually means and where you've made your mistakes, and your prejudice is bad regardless.

 

[Clydefrosch]

Depending on who you ask you tend to get a different definition which is used or interpreted in a manner of their choosing. I'm going to stick with the definition of "phobia" from a normal dictionary. Wikipedia is known to be completely and utterly biased.

How is wikipedia biased? What the fuck are you even talking about?

And what dictionary are you using? Because any run of the mill one would define 'phobia' in the medical or psychological context, which obviously does not apply to this conversation.

No one who isn't upset about being called transphobic for being clearly transphobic would argue the definition on wikipedia or meriam webster or literally any other dictionary.

 

[SG854]

Well, I'm not going to debate the choices that people are making and the fact they are choices. That's not what I started this thread for. I'm stating that simply by disliking something you don't have a phobia. Which is what I stated, and you haven't presented any sort of convincing argument otherwise.

They don’t choose to be trans.

Well it depends on what Gender Dysphoria they have.

Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria is a choice. Usually because of society makes them believe they are trans when they are not.

Child Onset Gender Dysphoria and Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria aren’t choices. Autogynephilia is a sexual orientation and there is no evidence that people can change orientations. And there is scientific research, though not complete and is limited, says that people that transition after careful screening and consideration are happy with transition.