Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by cots, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. cots
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    cots GBAtemp Maniac

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    Minor modifications like ear piercings, circumcision or cutting your hair could technically fit under mutilating something, but that's a stretch and doesn't' come to simply cutting on an entire sexual organ. If you don't see any distinction between cutting your finger nails to chopping off your penis then you need to seek help.

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    So, it's commonly know, for whatever reasons, that trans people are prone to kill themselves in greater rates then people with other lifestyles. So this doesn't surprise me. I mean, you chose to live a risky lifestyle and shit happens then that's sorta how the risk factor fits into it. I know as I've been in many situations were keeping my sexual preference to myself was less risky then not. Sad, but true. As for the links below, I believe the first two can explain the 3rd.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/californias-new-sex-ed-program-is-legalized-lewd-conduct

    https://www.hometownlife.com/story/news/2019/06/11/library-hosts-pride-week-story-time/1411929001/

    https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids...eople-reach-their-highest-level-2000-n1018376
     
  2. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Addict

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    My post was a condensed restatement of your post, which I quoted. You're telling @MadMageKefka that if he doesn't concede to your definitions and worldview, you won't have a discussion. You repeated this expectation at #4 above. You are in effect stating that you will not debate whether or not your definition of "gender" is valid. The opposing person in the conversation must concede to your definition of "gender" in order for there to be a conversation at all. In other words, you're insisting on winning the debate before it begins.
     
    Last edited by Hanafuda, Jun 18, 2019
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  3. cots
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    cots GBAtemp Maniac

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    His approach to the argument is dishonest to say the least (example, the derailing attempts).
     
  4. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

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    It's actually the other way around. He's insisting that gender and sex are synonymous (they're not), which makes talking about whether or not one's gender always comports with one's sex over before it begins. If we define the two words identically, then one's gender necessarily has to match one's sex by definition.

    Fortunately, one deals with anatomy, and the other deals with roles and identity. Once that's acknowledged, we can actually talk about whether or not one's gender always comports with one's sex (it doesn't).

    When have I derailed? Please use specific quotes.
     
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  5. AmandaRose

    AmandaRose Do what I do. Hold tight and pretend it’s a plan

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    Ok so you want to talk about the suicide rate in the trans community.

    Lets start with Europe which out of all the continents is the most accepting of the trans community where there is very little transphobic hatred and a trans suicide rate of 3% witch is equal to other suicide rates. Let's break it down further and look at the three most accepting countries in Europe of the trans comunity

    Spain trans suicide rate is 1.5%
    Italy trans suicide rate is also 1.5%
    My own country of Scotland trans suicide rate of 1%

    Now let's look at North America especially the USA which has a high rate of transphobic crime.

    Suicide rate in the trans community 38%

    Surely you can see why the suicide rate is so high in America?

    Also funny how the three most vocal people against the trans community in this thread are @cots @MadMageKefka and @Hanafuda are yes you guessed it American.
     
    Last edited by AmandaRose, Jun 18, 2019
  6. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Addict

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    No it's not. You're insisting on your opinion being given as the truth, and his as rubbish, before you'll even discuss.


    See, right there.


    Yeah, that's what he's saying. You disagree? Fine. What do you have to disprove it? What does he have to disprove your opinion? That's the discussion.

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    Nice generalization. You'd be good at rounding up all people of a certain type for the concentration camps.

    I simply don't accept that a person with a dong who thinks he's a woman is actually a woman. He's a person with an identified psychiatric disorder. But that doesn't make him eligible to compete in the women's 100m dash. I don't believe anyone's rights are being violated to insist that penises go to the men's facilities, vaginas go to the women's facilities. If that sounds like crazy talk to you, and makes me a bad person in your opinon, I'm sorry. If that reinforces your stereotypes and preconceived notions of "Americans" for some reason, good for you. More confirmation bias in your life is sure to make you feel better.
     
  7. Pacheko17

    Pacheko17 MAD SCIENTIST

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    I still believe gender dysphoria is a mental disorder and should be treated as such, no matter what the WHO says.
    Transgender people have the highest rate of suicide out of any minority, doesn't that seem strange? Maybe it's because they're fucked in the head that's why.

    I don't want people dying and I don't want people so confused with themselves that they literally believe they're in the wrong body, this doesn't make me transphobic (my auto-correct doesn't even think that exists), it makes me a decent person for wanting other's well being.

    If you wanna dress more feminine, or more masculine regardless of your gender, do it, go ahead, I believe that's normal and some people have personal preferences, but wanting to chop your dick off or attaching a useless piece of meat to your fanny, that's not normal.
     
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  8. AmandaRose

    AmandaRose Do what I do. Hold tight and pretend it’s a plan

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    Did you not see my post two above your's that clearly talks about the suicide rate?
     
  9. Damon_girl

    Damon_girl GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    I absolutely agree. I don’t care what people do with their lives, but I don’t have to support it either. To me it’s wrong, so I’m not gonna try to do the impossible and change the sex I was born as, nor would I ever date a trans person either. That’s not transphobic, it’s called having a preference, just so we’re clear.
     
  10. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

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    Disclaimer: My intention was not to come off as catty when I typed the following, but I probably could have edited it better.

    It's not my opinion. It's how the words are largely used. Regardless of any of that, if he wants to use different definitions for these words, then it's hard to have a conversation involving those words.

    If he's so stubborn that he refuses to use the words correctly, then we can just assign labels to what we're talking about instead. For example, we can use the made-up word sexflembaggin for one's anatomy, and we can use the made-up word gendorgon for one's roles and identity. Doing this would allow us to have a conversation about whether or not one's sexflembaggin necessarily comports with one's gendorgon, all while preserving his delicate feelings about the words gender and sex, but I would find this to be an unnecessary waste of time. He could just improve his vocabulary or, if he's going to remain stubborn, temporarily accept the above definitions for the sake of conversation. Refusing to use the words properly does nothing to make his point nor counter mine. It merely alters the semantic parameters of the conversation, and I'm not particularly interested in the kind of semantic masturbation that falsely appears to demonstrate an argument (i.e. "one's gender comports with one's sex because the words are synonymous") when it actually has no bearing on what's true about the topic.

    Sex and gender are not necessarily synonymous, and it's not how I'm using those words. To ignore what I mean when I use those words is to sidestep the conversation. See above for how we could arbitrarily change the labels, and it wouldn't matter. I'm more interested in actual arguments over semantic arguments.

    I agree that if we define the two words identically, then one's gender necessarily has to match one's sex by definition. It's not particularly relevant to whether or not one's identity necessarily has to match one's physiology, which is the conversation I'm interesting in having. See above for more detail on why this kind of semantic masterbation bores me. He can either accept how the words sex and gender are used (even if it's temporarily), change the labels, or leave the conversation.
     
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  11. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Addict

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    American. hmmph. Figures.


    (j/k)
     
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  12. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

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    Suicide rates are higher for trans people, gay people, etc. because of how these people are treated by society. This is one of the many reasons why these aren't mental disorders.
     
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  13. AmandaRose

    AmandaRose Do what I do. Hold tight and pretend it’s a plan

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    Which again backs up the suicide figures I posted above.
     
  14. MadMageKefka

    MadMageKefka GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    ...and yet instead of showing me the third SEX, you continue to argue that sex and gender are not the same. I already told you what I meant according to your own terms. If you still refuse to show me what I asked for, I'm just going to continue to assume you cant.
    Did you seriously just compare genital surgery to a hair cut? Okay, lets ignore that insane claim for a second... I dont think anyone here has tried to defend plastic surgery at all, so youre kinda pulling this argument from nowhere. Also, Im sorry, while I agree with you infant circumcision is wrong, you cant possibly compare to the removal of extra skin to the procedure of turning a penis into a fake vagina. ...and before you get upset at me for saying "fake" I wanna remind you of your constant use of the term "cosmetic surgery," meaning, only visual changes.
     
  15. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

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    I've already talked about individuals who are intersex and don't necessarily fall under the categories of male or female.

    See my posts above for why we cannot continue our conversation if you're going to use the words sex and gender synonymously (or what we can do about it). In short, we can't talk about physiology vs. identity if you're going to say the labels I am using for each of those things are synonymous. That redefines the words.

    Wanting to deal with semantic barriers to an effective conversation should not be confused with any inability or lack of desire on my part.
     
  16. MadMageKefka

    MadMageKefka GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    Oh, so you're a nationalist?.... Good to know. This really helps your argument and makes you seem like a rational person. Don't discriminate against LGBT, but Americans? Pft. Fuck them amirite? /s

    Why should I conform to your logic? My logic has been used for literally thousands of years. This is an excuse anyway, I already gave you an answer pretending like I accepted your logic and you STILL didnt show me what I asked for. This stall game is becoming pathetic. How many pages has it been now? Its very clear to me you know that any extra gender, sex, "sexflembaggin," or whatever you want to call it does not exist anywhere but mentally but are still clinging to any vague explanation you can instead of just showing me what I asked for.

    You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between "show" and "tell."
     
    Last edited by MadMageKefka, Jun 18, 2019
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  17. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

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    I'm talking about semantics, not logic. If you're unwilling to use the words sex and gender as a way to distinguish between physiology and identity, then I don't know how else to help you. We need to be able to speak the same language to be able to effectively communicate with one another.

    This would all be like use trying to have a conversation about the Switch, but you refuse to use the word Switch to mean the gaming device because, historically, it's been used other ways, such as to mean making and breaking the connection in an electric circuit. I try to explain how the word is used, but you're too stubborn to use it properly for our discourse. You could just use the word properly for the time being, even if you aren't going to change how you use the word outside the context of this conversation, so the discourse can continue, but you still refuse. We could choose a different word to use instead, but at that point, the conversation just isn't worth the effort from my point of view.

    Acknowledging how long people have used a particular meaning of a word is irrelevant to how the word is used now. Acknowledging how long people have believed something is irrelevant to whether or not we have good reason to continue believing that same thing.

    No, you told me to assume you mean gender and sex synonymously for all future references, which is why we had to stop the conversation. That disconnect is untenable.

    I explained that intersex genitalia isn't necessarily male or female. If, after we figure out how we're going to communicate physiology vs. identity, you want to explain how genitalia that's neither male or female is somehow one or the other, I'd like to hear it.

    Edit: You're also the one who said there's no room for interpretation. That says to me that if there is any ambiguity, it can't be classified as male or female, since that would require interpretation.

    See my post above about why we can't have a conversation about physiology vs. identity when you're saying their respective labels are the same thing. You can also see above for why it's necessary to deal with a semantic boundary, and insisting on doing so should not be taken as any sort of inability or lack of desire to continue that specific part of our conversation.

    I'm not going to post pictures of intersex genitalia, if that's what you're asking for. You're free to address my point above about how you're apparently going to tell me how genitalia that's neither male or female is somehow one or the other (after we deal with our semantics), since that's where we seem to be at.
     
    Last edited by Lacius, Jun 18, 2019
  18. Memoir

    Memoir Hi, I'm Cynical!

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    Nice potshot at a Nationality to avoid rational discussion. So much hypocrisy in this thread...

    Literally has nothing to do with anything. Especially considering that ignorance isn't exclusive to the NA regions.

    Personally, I'm learning a fair bit as of recent. Not just in the topic of gender-isms.. But it's still astounding. Some of the points of discussion in this thread on all sides is informative.. But also indicative of how arrogant we are.
     
    Last edited by Memoir, Jun 18, 2019
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  19. cots
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    cots GBAtemp Maniac

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    Guess I'll repost what I've already posted.

    "Your tactics don't fly with me."
     
  20. MadMageKefka

    MadMageKefka GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    I've still yet to see this unidentifiable genitalia you keep talking about, thus why I want to be shown. How can I explain something you cant even prove exists? You're the one claiming it does, not me.

    You can claim bigfoot exists, you can show me documents of people studying bigfoot, but until I see a picture of bigfoot, or see/meet one, Im going to assume he's made up.
     
    Last edited by MadMageKefka, Jun 18, 2019
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