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Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...

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cots

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Ah so now someone has popped up and is going on about genital mutilation let's address that shall we.

Minor modifications like ear piercings, circumcision or cutting your hair could technically fit under mutilating something, but that's a stretch and doesn't' come to simply cutting on an entire sexual organ. If you don't see any distinction between cutting your finger nails to chopping off your penis then you need to seek help.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

So, it's commonly know, for whatever reasons, that trans people are prone to kill themselves in greater rates then people with other lifestyles. So this doesn't surprise me. I mean, you chose to live a risky lifestyle and shit happens then that's sorta how the risk factor fits into it. I know as I've been in many situations were keeping my sexual preference to myself was less risky then not. Sad, but true. As for the links below, I believe the first two can explain the 3rd.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/californias-new-sex-ed-program-is-legalized-lewd-conduct

https://www.hometownlife.com/story/news/2019/06/11/library-hosts-pride-week-story-time/1411929001/

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids...eople-reach-their-highest-level-2000-n1018376
 

Hanafuda

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  1. I don't think I was responding to you, so I don't think you have any say regarding when my conversation is over.
  2. I'm not sure what you're wanting me to concede.
  3. Sex and gender, by definition, are not the same thing, regardless of one's beliefs about whether or not one's gender always comports with one's sex. This part is not controversial.
  4. If one wants to argue that there's no difference between the two words, then we can't have a conversation about sex and gender since we need to agree on terminology before having a spirited debate.


My post was a condensed restatement of your post, which I quoted. You're telling @MadMageKefka that if he doesn't concede to your definitions and worldview, you won't have a discussion. You repeated this expectation at #4 above. You are in effect stating that you will not debate whether or not your definition of "gender" is valid. The opposing person in the conversation must concede to your definition of "gender" in order for there to be a conversation at all. In other words, you're insisting on winning the debate before it begins.
 
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cots

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My post was a condensed restatement of your post, which I quoted. You're telling @MadMageKefka that if doesn't concede to your definitions and worldview, you won't have a discussion. You repeated this expectation at #4 above. You are in effect stating that you will not debate whether or not your definition of "gender" is valid. The opposing person in the conversation must concede to your definition of "gender" in order for there to be a conversation at all. In other words, you're insisting on winning the debate before it begins.

His approach to the argument is dishonest to say the least (example, the derailing attempts).
 

Lacius

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My post was a condensed restatement of your post, which I quoted. You're telling @MadMageKefka that if doesn't concede to your definitions and worldview, you won't have a discussion. You repeated this expectation at #4 above. You are in effect stating that you will not debate whether or not your definition of "gender" is valid. The opposing person in the conversation must concede to your definition of "gender" in order for there to be a conversation at all. In other words, you're insisting on winning the debate before it begins.
It's actually the other way around. He's insisting that gender and sex are synonymous (they're not), which makes talking about whether or not one's gender always comports with one's sex over before it begins. If we define the two words identically, then one's gender necessarily has to match one's sex by definition.

Fortunately, one deals with anatomy, and the other deals with roles and identity. Once that's acknowledged, we can actually talk about whether or not one's gender always comports with one's sex (it doesn't).

His approach to the argument is dishonest to say the least (example, the derailing attempts).
When have I derailed? Please use specific quotes.
 
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AmandaRose

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Minor modifications like ear piercings, circumcision or cutting your hair could technically fit under mutilating something, but that's a stretch and doesn't' come to simply cutting on an entire sexual organ. If you don't see any distinction between cutting your finger nails to chopping off your penis then you need to seek help.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

So, it's commonly know, for whatever reasons, that trans people are prone to kill themselves in greater rates then people with other lifestyles. So this doesn't surprise me. I mean, you chose to live a risky lifestyle and shit happens then that's sorta how the risk factor fits into it. I know as I've been in many situations were keeping my sexual preference to myself was less risky then not. Sad, but true. As for the links below, I believe the first two can explain the 3rd.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/californias-new-sex-ed-program-is-legalized-lewd-conduct

https://www.hometownlife.com/story/news/2019/06/11/library-hosts-pride-week-story-time/1411929001/

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids...eople-reach-their-highest-level-2000-n1018376

Ok so you want to talk about the suicide rate in the trans community.

Lets start with Europe which out of all the continents is the most accepting of the trans community where there is very little transphobic hatred and a trans suicide rate of 3% witch is equal to other suicide rates. Let's break it down further and look at the three most accepting countries in Europe of the trans comunity

Spain trans suicide rate is 1.5%
Italy trans suicide rate is also 1.5%
My own country of Scotland trans suicide rate of 1%

Now let's look at North America especially the USA which has a high rate of transphobic crime.

Suicide rate in the trans community 38%

Surely you can see why the suicide rate is so high in America?

Also funny how the three most vocal people against the trans community in this thread are @cots @MadMageKefka and @Hanafuda are yes you guessed it American.
 
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Hanafuda

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It's actually the other way around.

No it's not. You're insisting on your opinion being given as the truth, and his as rubbish, before you'll even discuss.


He's insisting that gender and sex are synonymous (they're not)

See, right there.


which makes talking about whether or not one's gender always comports with one's sex over before it begins. If we define the two words identically, then one's gender necessarily has to match one's sex by definition.

Yeah, that's what he's saying. You disagree? Fine. What do you have to disprove it? What does he have to disprove your opinion? That's the discussion.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also funny how the three most vocal people against the trans community in this thread are @cots @MadMageKefka and @Hanafuda are yes you guessed it American.

Nice generalization. You'd be good at rounding up all people of a certain type for the concentration camps.

I simply don't accept that a person with a dong who thinks he's a woman is actually a woman. He's a person with an identified psychiatric disorder. But that doesn't make him eligible to compete in the women's 100m dash. I don't believe anyone's rights are being violated to insist that penises go to the men's facilities, vaginas go to the women's facilities. If that sounds like crazy talk to you, and makes me a bad person in your opinon, I'm sorry. If that reinforces your stereotypes and preconceived notions of "Americans" for some reason, good for you. More confirmation bias in your life is sure to make you feel better.
 

Pacheko17

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I still believe gender dysphoria is a mental disorder and should be treated as such, no matter what the WHO says.
Transgender people have the highest rate of suicide out of any minority, doesn't that seem strange? Maybe it's because they're fucked in the head that's why.

I don't want people dying and I don't want people so confused with themselves that they literally believe they're in the wrong body, this doesn't make me transphobic (my auto-correct doesn't even think that exists), it makes me a decent person for wanting other's well being.

If you wanna dress more feminine, or more masculine regardless of your gender, do it, go ahead, I believe that's normal and some people have personal preferences, but wanting to chop your dick off or attaching a useless piece of meat to your fanny, that's not normal.
 
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AmandaRose

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I still believe gender dysphoria is a mental disorder and should be treated as such, no matter what the WHO says.
Transgender people have the highest rate of suicide out of any minority, doesn't that seem strange? Maybe it's because they're fucked in the head that's why.

I don't want people dying and I don't want people so confused with themselves that they literally believe they're in the wrong body, this doesn't make me transphobic (my auto-correct doesn't even think that exists), it makes me a decent person for wanting other's well being.

If you wanna dress more feminine, or more masculine regardless of your gender, do it, go ahead, I believe that's normal and some people have personal preferences, but wanting to chop your dick off or attaching a useless piece of meat to your fanny, that's not normal.
Did you not see my post two above your's that clearly talks about the suicide rate?
 

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I still believe gender dysphoria is a mental disorder and should be treated as such, no matter what the WHO says.
Transgender people have the highest rate of suicide out of any minority, doesn't that seem strange? Maybe it's because they're fucked in the head that's why.

I don't want people dying and I don't want people so confused with themselves that they literally believe they're in the wrong body, this doesn't make me transphobic (my auto-correct doesn't even think that exists), it makes me a decent person for wanting other's well being.

If you wanna dress more feminine, or more masculine regardless of your gender, do it, go ahead, I believe that's normal and some people have personal preferences, but wanting to chop your dick off or attaching a useless piece of meat to your fanny, that's not normal.
I absolutely agree. I don’t care what people do with their lives, but I don’t have to support it either. To me it’s wrong, so I’m not gonna try to do the impossible and change the sex I was born as, nor would I ever date a trans person either. That’s not transphobic, it’s called having a preference, just so we’re clear.
 

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No it's not. You're insisting on your opinion being given as the truth, and his as rubbish, before you'll even discuss.
Disclaimer: My intention was not to come off as catty when I typed the following, but I probably could have edited it better.

It's not my opinion. It's how the words are largely used. Regardless of any of that, if he wants to use different definitions for these words, then it's hard to have a conversation involving those words.

If he's so stubborn that he refuses to use the words correctly, then we can just assign labels to what we're talking about instead. For example, we can use the made-up word sexflembaggin for one's anatomy, and we can use the made-up word gendorgon for one's roles and identity. Doing this would allow us to have a conversation about whether or not one's sexflembaggin necessarily comports with one's gendorgon, all while preserving his delicate feelings about the words gender and sex, but I would find this to be an unnecessary waste of time. He could just improve his vocabulary or, if he's going to remain stubborn, temporarily accept the above definitions for the sake of conversation. Refusing to use the words properly does nothing to make his point nor counter mine. It merely alters the semantic parameters of the conversation, and I'm not particularly interested in the kind of semantic masturbation that falsely appears to demonstrate an argument (i.e. "one's gender comports with one's sex because the words are synonymous") when it actually has no bearing on what's true about the topic.

See, right there.
Sex and gender are not necessarily synonymous, and it's not how I'm using those words. To ignore what I mean when I use those words is to sidestep the conversation. See above for how we could arbitrarily change the labels, and it wouldn't matter. I'm more interested in actual arguments over semantic arguments.

Yeah, that's what he's saying. You disagree? Fine. What do you have to disprove it? What does he have to disprove your opinion? That's the discussion.
I agree that if we define the two words identically, then one's gender necessarily has to match one's sex by definition. It's not particularly relevant to whether or not one's identity necessarily has to match one's physiology, which is the conversation I'm interesting in having. See above for more detail on why this kind of semantic masterbation bores me. He can either accept how the words sex and gender are used (even if it's temporarily), change the labels, or leave the conversation.
 
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I absolutely agree. I don’t care what people do with their lives, but I don’t have to support it either. To me it’s wrong, so I’m not gonna try to do the impossible and change the sex I was born as, nor would I ever date a trans person either. That’s not transphobic, it’s called having a preference, just so we’re clear.


American. hmmph. Figures.


(j/k)
 

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Transgender people have the highest rate of suicide out of any minority, doesn't that seem strange? Maybe it's because they're fucked in the head that's why.
Suicide rates are higher for trans people, gay people, etc. because of how these people are treated by society. This is one of the many reasons why these aren't mental disorders.
 
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MadMageKefka

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If you're too stubborn to acknowledge that sex refers to one's anatomy and gender refers to one's roles and identity, then I see no reason to continue this conversation. We have to agree on terms to be able to have effective discourse.

Disclaimer: I didn't read your whole post, since what I read grossly mischaracterizes the purpose of my most recent posts.

The conversation I've been having lately is about the fact that sex is not necessarily binary, not about trans people. I'm not using intersex people to justify the trans experience. I'm using intersex people to explain that sex is not necessarily binary.
...and yet instead of showing me the third SEX, you continue to argue that sex and gender are not the same. I already told you what I meant according to your own terms. If you still refuse to show me what I asked for, I'm just going to continue to assume you cant.
Ah so now someone has popped up and is going on about genital mutilation let's address that shall we.


The phrase genital mutilation is a transphobic sentiment filled with irony. Really dark irony.

The same people who accuse trans people who decide to undergo surgery of “genital mutilation” often circumcise their sons. Or are circumcised. And how many of these people chose to get the procedure? Did they have to go through countless therapists and consultations to get circumcised? Did they have to have multiple professionals give them a letter of permission to be circumcised? No. And neither did the parents who did it to them.

Circumcision literally is, by all accounts, actual genital mutilation that is no less reprehensible than female infant circumcision sometimes practiced in other nations. And almost all of the amab people who are circumcised didn’t have a say in the procedure (unlike transitioning).

But what about men who are happy with their circumcisions, the men who prefer life without foreskin? Almost every single “I’m grateful” story I’ve heard from circumcised men rationalizes it with either a) “But women prefer this!” or b) “But now I don’t have to clean it

View attachment 170303

Oh, right, okay. We can cut skin off of a baby’s penis because it’ll be easier for him to get laid in the future (because isn’t that the first thing we all think of when we see are newborns? “Aww, welcome to the world. Now how can I make you more fuckable?”), or because he’s too damn lazy to practice hygiene (I mean, we all have to wipe our asses after we shit…we don’t try to remove them because wiping is too much of a hassle.) And this totally makes sense, apparently, but undergoing transitional surgery because it is literally actively painful and excruciating to have the wrong body is “mutilation.”

And for that matter, who decides where the line at “mutilation” is drawn? What about tattoos, piercings, or haircuts? Or is it only mutilation when it offends you?

Whether or not something is considered mutilation should be determined logically, not with some knee-jerk reaction. So logically, we should ask:

  • Was it consensual?
  • Was it life-threatening?
  • How does the person feel about it?
On that note, we shouldn’t consider a mother cutting her toddlers hair mutilation (even if the child may have fussed about it). Why? It isn’t actually dangerous, and the kid probably doesn’t actually care much. Should we consider it mutilation if a father forced his toddler to get a tattoo? Yes, we probably should…hence why this is illegal. Why? A child cannot consent to this, it may become infected, and the child may not have wanted this but is now practically stuck with it permanently.

But using these guidelines, we can see that any trans person who undergoes surgery is not being mutilated because they consent to the operation, it isn’t any more risky than other surgeries, and generally, it saves a person from a life of debilitating discomfort

HOWEVER, the topic of mutilation gets even more…interesting…when we take intersex infants into account. Intersex newborns go through forced sex-reassignment surgeries regularly. But where is all the protest for this? Are we again going to tolerate legitimate genital mutilation (even it it is sex-reassignment) on the basis of future potential for sexual attraction? The mutilation of intersex children is often justified with “but no one will want to sleep with a h************e!” So? Shouldn’t we instead be teaching society to value these people, instead of telling everyone it makes sense to be disgusted by intersex people? But even so, one of the most common (if not the most) reasoning behind forced surgeries for intersex newborns is so that mothers are able to bond better. Imagine that. Imagine having to go through sex-reassignment surgery when you’re an infant just for your mother to properly love you.*

View attachment 170304



Another statement that ties in with the above is the following.

You should love your body the way God made it!

Mhm. I wonder how many Christian women love the hair god put on their armpits. I wonder how many Christian men love the hair god put on women’s vaginas, for that matter. How many men love their body enough to not take protein shakes? How many women are happy with their natural eyebrows? How many people love the natural scent god endowed us with during puberty?

Any time you shave, get a hair cut, brush your teeth, paint your nails, put on makeup, get a spray tan, clip your nails, take “male enhancement pills,” or put on perfume/cologne, you are changing something natural about your body.

Do women who get spray tans hate themselves? It’s not likely. Do men who shave their beards lack self-respect? Probably not. Do either of these categories of people inherently hate god and deserve to burn in hell for those actions? Let me guess, most people would probably say “no.” And they’re right. And trans people who chose to physically transition are no different.



We get into a bit of a different tone when it comes to matters of plastic surgery. Because while trans people are often under scrutiny for altering their bodies via surgery, many cis people are as well (though to a lesser extent). Society still clings to an arbitrary notion of “realness” and women with butt implants or lip injections are often deemed “fake.” Still, this isn’t exactly the same line of criticism against trans people who undergo surgery (who are considered “fake” in another sense), because these people are more frequently seen as perverted people who do so for sexual gratification or due to dangerous delusions. If anything, cis people (namely women) who undergo plastic surgery are pitied as having been pressured into their choices by a society with rigid beauty standards.

But needless to say, there are many cis people who get plastic surgery of their own volition who pay no regard to beauty standards. This is especially, but not only, true of people like María José Cristerna and others with an alternative aesthetic.

View attachment 170305

Things like nose jobs or liposuction might still carry a bit of stigma, but overall: These things make people happier and typically, (also hypocritically) society enjoys seeing the results. It’s essentially a win-win, or would be, if we weren’t so attached to this fake sense of authenticity. People who get nose jobs or lipo are no less themselves than they were before.

Let me repeat that: Those who alter their physical appearance by any means (be it cosmetics, surgery, push-up bras, dieting, bodybuilding, etc) are still themselves. And any implication otherwise relies on this toxic and shallow assertion that the reality of someone is inherently tied to their appearance.

That’s right. Those who get breast implants or whatever aren’t the “fake” or shallow ones, it’s those who think your “real self” is ultimately just however someone looks. So next time you’re feeling sanctimonious because you still have your “real” eyebrows and a “real” butt, maybe learn that no one gives a shit about how “real” you body is….your “real” self should lie in your personality, and by being a decent human being. Afterall, who would you rather be friends with: A “real” person who is deceptive, judgemental and manipulating, or someone who had work done but is sweet and cares about you?

So to conclude, unless you’re an intactivist, intersex-right’s activist who looks like this


View attachment 170306

You’re being hypocritical any time you judge a trans person for altering their body (in a way that literally doesn’t affect you any way), because you damn well aren’t in a natural pristine condition either.
Did you seriously just compare genital surgery to a hair cut? Okay, lets ignore that insane claim for a second... I dont think anyone here has tried to defend plastic surgery at all, so youre kinda pulling this argument from nowhere. Also, Im sorry, while I agree with you infant circumcision is wrong, you cant possibly compare to the removal of extra skin to the procedure of turning a penis into a fake vagina. ...and before you get upset at me for saying "fake" I wanna remind you of your constant use of the term "cosmetic surgery," meaning, only visual changes.
 

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...and yet instead of showing me the third SEX
I've already talked about individuals who are intersex and don't necessarily fall under the categories of male or female.

you continue to argue that sex and gender are not the same. I already told you what I meant according to your own terms.
See my posts above for why we cannot continue our conversation if you're going to use the words sex and gender synonymously (or what we can do about it). In short, we can't talk about physiology vs. identity if you're going to say the labels I am using for each of those things are synonymous. That redefines the words.

If you still refuse to show me what I asked for, I'm just going to continue to assume you cant.
Wanting to deal with semantic barriers to an effective conversation should not be confused with any inability or lack of desire on my part.
 

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Also funny how the three most vocal people against the trans community in this thread are @cots @MadMageKefka and @Hanafuda are yes you guessed it American.
Oh, so you're a nationalist?.... Good to know. This really helps your argument and makes you seem like a rational person. Don't discriminate against LGBT, but Americans? Pft. Fuck them amirite? /s

He can either accept how the words sex and gender are used (even if it's temporarily), change the labels, or leave the conversation.
Why should I conform to your logic? My logic has been used for literally thousands of years. This is an excuse anyway, I already gave you an answer pretending like I accepted your logic and you STILL didnt show me what I asked for. This stall game is becoming pathetic. How many pages has it been now? Its very clear to me you know that any extra gender, sex, "sexflembaggin," or whatever you want to call it does not exist anywhere but mentally but are still clinging to any vague explanation you can instead of just showing me what I asked for.

I've already talked about individuals who are intersex and don't necessarily fall under the categories of male or female.
You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between "show" and "tell."
 
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Lacius

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Why should I conform to your logic?
I'm talking about semantics, not logic. If you're unwilling to use the words sex and gender as a way to distinguish between physiology and identity, then I don't know how else to help you. We need to be able to speak the same language to be able to effectively communicate with one another.

This would all be like use trying to have a conversation about the Switch, but you refuse to use the word Switch to mean the gaming device because, historically, it's been used other ways, such as to mean making and breaking the connection in an electric circuit. I try to explain how the word is used, but you're too stubborn to use it properly for our discourse. You could just use the word properly for the time being, even if you aren't going to change how you use the word outside the context of this conversation, so the discourse can continue, but you still refuse. We could choose a different word to use instead, but at that point, the conversation just isn't worth the effort from my point of view.

My logic has been used for literally thousands of years.
Acknowledging how long people have used a particular meaning of a word is irrelevant to how the word is used now. Acknowledging how long people have believed something is irrelevant to whether or not we have good reason to continue believing that same thing.

This is an excuse anyway, I already gave you an answer pretending like I accepted your logic
No, you told me to assume you mean gender and sex synonymously for all future references, which is why we had to stop the conversation. That disconnect is untenable.

and you STILL didnt show me what I asked for.
I explained that intersex genitalia isn't necessarily male or female. If, after we figure out how we're going to communicate physiology vs. identity, you want to explain how genitalia that's neither male or female is somehow one or the other, I'd like to hear it.

Edit: You're also the one who said there's no room for interpretation. That says to me that if there is any ambiguity, it can't be classified as male or female, since that would require interpretation.

This stall game is becoming pathetic. How many pages has it been now? Its very clear to me you know that any extra gender, sex, "sexflembaggin," or whatever you want to call it does not exist anywhere but mentally but are still clinging to any vague explanation you can instead of just showing me what I asked for.
See my post above about why we can't have a conversation about physiology vs. identity when you're saying their respective labels are the same thing. You can also see above for why it's necessary to deal with a semantic boundary, and insisting on doing so should not be taken as any sort of inability or lack of desire to continue that specific part of our conversation.

You seem to have trouble understanding the difference between "show" and "tell."
I'm not going to post pictures of intersex genitalia, if that's what you're asking for. You're free to address my point above about how you're apparently going to tell me how genitalia that's neither male or female is somehow one or the other (after we deal with our semantics), since that's where we seem to be at.
 
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Kioku

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Also funny how the three most vocal people against the trans community in this thread are @cots @MadMageKefka and @Hanafuda are yes you guessed it American.

Nice potshot at a Nationality to avoid rational discussion. So much hypocrisy in this thread...

Literally has nothing to do with anything. Especially considering that ignorance isn't exclusive to the NA regions.

Personally, I'm learning a fair bit as of recent. Not just in the topic of gender-isms.. But it's still astounding. Some of the points of discussion in this thread on all sides is informative.. But also indicative of how arrogant we are.
 
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I'm not going to post pictures of intersex genitalia, if that's what you're asking for. You're free to address my point above about how you're apparently going to tell me how genitalia that's neither male or female is somehow one or the other (after we deal with our semantics), since that's where we seem to be at.
I've still yet to see this unidentifiable genitalia you keep talking about, thus why I want to be shown. How can I explain something you cant even prove exists? You're the one claiming it does, not me.

You can claim bigfoot exists, you can show me documents of people studying bigfoot, but until I see a picture of bigfoot, or see/meet one, Im going to assume he's made up.
 
Last edited by MadMageKefka,
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