Boeing 777 from Amsterdam shot down near the Russian border, 295 dead

Kane49

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Get out our weapons and attack the air like Caligula did the ocean, if the sky wants war it shall have it !
 

GBA rocks

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The [WW3?] was an attention catcher and a sad joke, not to be taken literally.

Still, let's wait to see how many NATO-countries citizens (I guess at least a couple of Dutchmen flying to Malaysia for summer vacations) are on the passenger list. In the end it will probably be shrugged off as a "terrible tragedy, an accident" from both sides to avoid escalation (and Malaysia Airlines will be blamed for choosing that route), but surely this doesn't help the Western attitude towards the Russian government that allegedly handed the separatists a couple of these babies:

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Reuters is reporting 23 US citizens were onboard..

edit
this is "fake" (as in, it's real but it's another plane):

http://videoyr.s3.amazonaws.com/sd/145762.mp4
 

ieatpixels

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was just watching this on the news, they showed clips of telephone conversations with the people involved in the attack. I find it shocking that 2 people's personal conversation can make global news without their permission. (I know they did something very bad, but it still shocks me)

I hope there's some payback to be had, 28 Australians were killed.
Dutch people are great, too.
(Though I haven't heard both sides of the story, did the attackers know it was a civilian aircraft? I think they may have thought it was someone attacking them.)
 

GBA rocks

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This is the intercepted conversation ("Major" and "Greek" are codenames used by the 2 pro-Russian separatists)

Major: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those Cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
Greek: Yes, Major.
Major: The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first 200. We have found the first 200 - a civilian.
Greek: Well, what do you have there?
Major: In short, it was 100 per cent a passenger aircraft.
Greek: Are many people there?
Major: Holy sh**t! The debris fell right into the yards [of homes].
Greek: What kind of aircraft?
Major: I haven't ascertained this. I haven't been to the main site. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
Greek: Is there anything left of the weapon?
Major: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.
Greek: Are there documents?
Major: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

I'd say their "privacy" is the least of the concerns in this kind of situation.
Phone conversations make the news for a lot less than this.
 

ibis_87

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The plane allegedly was shot down buy a "Buk" missile system (SS-11 Gadfly by the NATO classification). Even if we suppose Russia did handle one of those to Novorossia (the new country formed from the former Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine), they need serious external targeting system to work, at least the "Kupol" (by the NATO classification, "Long Arm") targeting radar and ideally a command center as well. Novorossia doesn't have those. But by a lucky chance, the Ukrainian army has.
 

GBA rocks

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This guy has good points:

http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.c...ssile-and-why-this-mean-the-rebels-have-lost/

From point 4 I gather that the Buk doesn't actually "need" an external radar support, being already equipped with a rudimental radar targeting system. Operators from a command center with serious radar systems would have probably told it was a civilian airliner. Trigger happy rebels didn't. It's not like it's the first plane they shot down in the last few weeks. I see little need to imagine an hoax orchestrated by the Kiev government.
 

ibis_87

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Well, the guy doesn't give any reasoning why the Ukrainean couldn't have shot the plane. It's a full-fledged civil war, the army of Ukraine is nothing like the US or even the Russian army, it's been underfinanced for years and lacks any serious skill, but has the fully operational Buk systems, not just SAMs. The probability of a tragic accident is quite high.
 

GBA rocks

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Were the rebels even using airplanes at all? Was Ukraine expecting them from the air?

I gather there's a party with air superiority (Kiev) and a party who had been actively defending its airspace in the preceding weeks (rebels).

And a plane essentially flying "away" from Ukraine, not towards it.

And superior radar systems that could have probably told the radar footprint of a civilian airliner.

I find the chance of tragic accident on the Kiev side to be much slimmer.

is it surely shot down at this point, or still just supposedly shot down?
US intelligence (who reached out to a couple of American media outlets), Kiev govt, Putin, UN emergency meeting, all have spoken like they're 100% sure it's been shot down, and specifically by a missile.
That's out of question.
There will be an international investigation to determine how and who.
 

ken28

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wouldnt be that suprises it this conversation is between two vmans to fire up the hate toward ukraine/russia.
 

ibis_87

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Surely, Ukraine doesn't expect Novorossia to have any usable military aviation, but they surely are on the fence about us (Russia) using our aviation. It's not bragging, but everyone surely understands the Ukrainian airforce is not even comparable to Russian. So some hothead might have gone ahead and shoot down what he thought was a Russian military plane while he could. As for the phone call record the Western media keep producing as a proof of Novorossia's army doing the thing - a fake of that level is made really easily, the international investigation is the thing needed.
 

AsPika2219

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Stupid Terrorism Pro Russia! Why they destroy Malaysia owned plane? :angry:
For who destroyed airplane, must to be brought to justice right now!!!

Information about MH17, please visit Wikipedia website here!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

Meanwhile, please change the title which total of passengers and crews are 298, not 295? Thank you!
 
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Satangel

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The way we are handling this is unacceptable in my opinion. We're acting like pussies, plain and simple.
Should've sent NATO forces to the crash site immediately IMHO, to block the area off and make sure nothing was stolen, these guys are made for situations like this.
They are also a neutral force, not pro Russia or pro Ukraine.

Now the ones who shot the plane down, removed so much evidence and probably stole so much luggage, it sickens my mind. We're acting like complete pussies towards Russia.
Say what you want about America, but if it were nearly 200 Americans dead, they would already have boots on the ground, simple as that.
 

AsPika2219

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To pro Russian, thanks for bring back the 2 black box to Malaysia! :bow: Because is more important about what happen on MH17 when flight into war zone before crash down. Plus, this is second time Malaysia plane got trouble after missing MH370 somewhere at Southern Indian Ocean.... :sad: Still searching right now.
 
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