Austria first country to make Covid vaccine mandatory

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x65943

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I see little to no difference between someone who is against vaccines and someone who doesn't get the vaccine because of opposition to the vaccine.


I don't think a person can be willfully unvaccinated at this point without being actively against the vaccine.


Except the conversation was literally about colloquial language and nothing else.


I don't think anybody claims science to be a source of absolute truth. It is, however, the best (and only) tool we have. When our scientific understanding changes, it's because the evidence changes, not because the methodology changed.

The fact that our scientific understanding about things has changed is a feature of science, not a bug.
"I don't think a person can be willfully unvaccinated at this point without being actively against the vaccine."

But we were talking about 3rd and 4th doses - which honestly I haven't gotten and a few other doctors I work with haven't gotten yet either

and it's dumb to say we are against the vaccine when we are giving it to people (including 3rd doses)
 
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Lacius

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"I don't think a person can be willfully unvaccinated at this point without being actively against the vaccine."

But we were talking about 3rd and 4th doses - which honestly I haven't gotten and a few other doctors I work with haven't gotten yet either

and it's dumb to say we are against the vaccine when we are giving it to people (including 3rd doses)
The thing about third and fourth doses was hypothetical, and I said if the science (and situation at the time) supported them. For example, if Omicron ended up needing a new booster tailored to that variant.

Edit: I'm getting turned around when talking about 4th/5th and 3rd/4th. You get what I mean.
 

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imo there is a difference between antivaxxers and those who don't want a vaccine themselves

I think to be called anti-vax you should be actively against the vaccine or vaccines in general

Personally I have still only gotten two doses of pfizer but I am still overwhelmingly pro-vaccine - I just don't want to get the 3rd shot myself at this time
Only the Sith deal in absolutes. There’s large swathes of people that are perfectly okay with the idea of vaccines and have vaccinated against other diseases in the past, but have very specific concerns in regards to the COVID vaccine given the fact that they’ve never received an mRNA vaccine before. It’s definitely a hard sell for young people who simply don’t suffer from the disease in large swathes - they’d have to do it out of sense of obligation, because their odds of death or hospitalisation (25/6000 in year one in England, since that figure is handy to me atm) are infinitesimally small. I think it’s unfair to call people who are hesitant or uncertain “anti-vaxxers” unless they actively dissuade other people from taking it, being anti-anything implies some form of action. It’s no different than calling an independent a “liberal” or a “conservative” based on who they voted for in a recent election, it eliminates any nuance from the debate.
 
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The thing about third and fourth doses was hypothetical, and I said if the science (and situation at the time) supported them. For example, if Omicron ended up needing a new booster tailored to that variant.
RIght, personally the reason I haven't gotten dose 3 yet is because the protection from 2 doses is still good

and I honestly think it's selfish for 1st world nations to be double dipping before helping third world nations with initial doses - but I do support older and immunocompromised patients getting dose 3

Only the Sith deal in absolutes. There’s large swathes of people that are perfectly okay with the idea of vaccines and have vaccinated against other diseases in the past, but have very specific concerns in regards to the COVID vaccine given the fact that they’ve never received an mRNA vaccine before. It’s definitely a hard sell for young people who simply don’t suffer from the disease in large swathes - they’d have to do it out of sense of obligation, because their odds of death or hospitalisation (25/6000 in year one in England, since that figure is handy to me atm) are infinitesimally small. I think it’s unfair to call people who are hesitant or uncertain “anti-vaxxers” unless they actively dissuade other people from taking it, being anti-anything implies some form of action. It’s no different than calling an independent a “liberal” or a “conservative” based on who they voted for in a recent election, it eliminates any nuance from the debate.
I can agree, opposition to one vaccine doesn't make you an antivaxxer in general - although in my personal experience there is some real overlap there
 

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I don't think anybody claims science to be a source of absolute truth. It is, however, the best (and only) tool we have. When our scientific understanding changes, it's because the evidence changes, not because the methodology changed.

The fact that our scientific understanding about things has changed is a feature of science, not a bug.

Don't treat it as the only tool you have, even if it is the best. It's not the only one.
Or do you really think humanity never progressed until the scientific method was established?
Be aware of the limitations of it - namely those regarding time and predictions.

And knowing that it changes, when analyzing things with inherent uncertainty (Statistical models), don't get attached to the (subjective, laced to p-value, based on a gaussian model) scientific conclusion. I've seen a lot of studies/papers dismissing certain drugs used for covid treatment because they had no "significant" difference from no drugs, despite every graph showing minor improvements on those who took them.

The """scientists""" got so attached to the math that they lacked the vision to see the truth in front of their eyes!
 

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The sciences are the only tools I have that actually work. That isn't to say they aren't without limitations.
there is something to say for logic and reasoning which don't necessarily utilize the scientific method. Masks were a good example. Although we didn't have good data, empiric logic and reasoning led us to believe they were likely still effective and helpful.

Just because you can't prove something scientifically (at the time) doesn't mean it isn't true - and I think there is something to be said about philosophy laying the groundwork for a lot of the modern world
 

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The sciences are the only tools I have that actually work. That isn't to say they aren't without limitations.
Work? Yes. Are correct 100% of the time? No. Science is a process of repeatedly being wrong until you’re right - old theories are disproven and replaced with new ones all the time, that’s the explicit function of peer review. It’s the best method we have, but a healthy dose of criticism and skepticism is a pre-requisite as far as science goes.
 

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there is something to say for logic and reasoning which don't necessarily utilize the scientific method.
Yes, I agree, but these are colloquially known as the formal sciences, so I include them when talking about the sciences broadly.

Just because you can't prove something scientifically (at the time) doesn't mean it isn't true - and I think there is something to be said about philosophy laying the groundwork for a lot of the modern world
I don't disagree with this, but the time to believe it is when we have demonstrated it scientifically.
 
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Yes, I agree, but these are colloquially known as the formal sciences, so I include them when talking about the sciences broadly.


I don't disagree with this, but the time to believe it is when we have demonstrated it scientifically.
eh I think we should be more clear with our speech, if by science you include logic and reasoning - then you should just say logic and reasoning

most people think of science as meaning the scientific method

and anyhow if that's how you've been defining it then I think a great deal of the disagreement on the last few pages is just misunderstanding and a failure to clearly define terms

the older I get the more I realize how many disagreements are simply two people using terms they define differently
 

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there is something to say for logic and reasoning which don't necessarily utilize the scientific method. Masks were a good example. Although we didn't have good data, empiric logic and reasoning led us to believe they were likely still effective and helpful.

Just because you can't prove something scientifically (at the time) doesn't mean it isn't true - and I think there is something to be said about philosophy laying the groundwork for a lot of the modern world
To be fair, masks have been used against illnesses way before COVID-19. So we have plenty of data and such of them working (to an extent) and still are a recommended layer of protection to use for oneself and others. While it's obviously not some big protection to have, it's still better than having no protection.
 
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eh I think we should be more clear with our speech, if by science you include logic and reasoning - then you should just say logic and reasoning

most people think of science as meaning the scientific method

and anyhow if that's how you've been defining it then I think a great deal of the disagreement on the last few pages is just misunderstanding and a failure to clearly define terms

the older I get the more I realize how many disagreements are simply two people using terms they define differently
If we aren't including the formal sciences in the sciences, which is fair, then my statement should have been "logic and the sciences are the only tools we have."
 
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x65943

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If we aren't including the formal sciences in the sciences, which is fair, then my statement should have been "logic and the sciences are the only tools we have."
I just want to be clear because I think that other guy was specifically arguing against the scientific method and p values <0.05 being the only source of truth

Which I agree to some extent with that

and if we can all agree on that front then there is no room to argue anyway :P
 

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A racist only has to be opposed to one race, and an anti-vaxxer only has to be opposed to one reputable vaccine.
That's really stretching. While yes, you may be a racist if you don't like one particular race, you can't be an anti-vaxxer if you take every other flu and cold shot, and shots to prevent measles and such, but if you don't want to take this still very experimental shot, you're against all vaccines. It's not the same thing, not by any stretch of any miles.
 

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That's really stretching. While yes, you may be a racist if you don't like one particular race, you can't be an anti-vaxxer if you take every other flu and cold shot, and shots to prevent measles and such, but if you don't want to take this still very experimental shot, you're against all vaccines. It's not the same thing, not by any stretch of any miles.
If you take other vaccines, but still cry about the COVID-19 vaccine making people magnetic or whatever, for example, you're an anti-vaxxer.
 

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If he was drawing a comparison in terms of total cost as you claim then “not being able to handle them the same way” is like saying that the sun is warm because ice is cold - one has nothing to do with the other. If you really want to fight this windmill you’ve constructed, at least find counter arguments within the same category. A comparison in terms of cost is rooted in numbers, so unless you have some numbers to provide, you have no rebuttal. I’d argue that obesity is costing the public *more* when it comes to cost of treatment, for reasons I will delve into below.

You’re right - the two diseases are not the same. Obesity leads to 4 out of 10 lead causes of death in the U.S. - heart disease (659k annually), cancer (599k annually), stroke (150k annually) and diabetes (87k annually). It’s also a comorbidity in more diseases than I could possibly list, including COVID 19 - it lowers your survival rate of just about anything, even random accidents. Imagine fracturing a bone when you’re 400lbs, Jesus wept. It costs billions every single year, and it’s not going away because there’s no vaccine for being fat.

The contention was made that obesity is not contagious because it’s not caused by a pathogen, but rather by greedily chomping through enough calories to feed a platoon. Science disproves that notion by outlining behavioural mechanisms that make it contagious, much like many other self-destructive behaviours. A lot of young people start smoking because their peers are smoking - it’s the exact same “thought virus”, if you will. I came in to make that point, and that point stands, as you’ve provided no evidence to disprove it (not that you could, the phenomenon is pretty well-established). Obesity puts an enormous strain on public healthcare by directly leading to a myriad of diseases that require long-term care and are often not curable - insulin-dependent diabetes isn’t going away just because you saw the light and changed your diet, you’re stuck with it.

If you *wanted* to issue a mandate against obesity, all you really need is a set of scales in front of every McDonald’s and hand out weight passports. How is that any different than officers with thermometers and vaccine passports, as seen in China? There are people driving around right now with breathalysers in their cars, if you can’t imagine similar measures being waged in the fight against excessive consumption of grease, your imagination isn’t very vivid. Should we do that? No, because that’s an invasive limitation of people’s inherent freedom to do whatever they fancy with their bodies, even if it is self-destructive… kind of like refusing to get vaccinated in spite of overwhelming evidence that the vaccines are safe and effective, and will protect you against a given pathogen to a large extent.

Fat people stay fat because they have fat on their brain, and unless they have a sudden epiphany and realise that breathing has gotten much harder compared to what they remember from their youth, they will continue to overeat, and their mere existence in society will propagate obesity in their social circle. People who refuse to vaccinate because they think vaccines have heavy metals in them or some such nonsense, have lead on their brain. They will not vaccinate regardless of what measures you propose and they will continue to be at an elevated risk of infection, propagating the pathogen in their circle if they do become infected. Both of those groups have the freedom to do so, whether you like it or not.
Wasn't trying to disprove that obesity mindset is contagious. So not going to provide evidence.


I'm not for Vaccine mandates either

I know obesity affects more people and costs more to our health care system.


Don't know how obesity fits in the covid debate. People smoke because their peers smoke because it makes them look cool, peer pressure. People don't catch covid on purpose because it makes them look cool. People don't get fat because it makes them look cool.
 

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Wasn't trying to disprove that obesity mindset is contagious. So not going to provide evidence.

I'm not for Vaccine mandates either

I know obesity affects more people and costs more to our health care system.

Don't know how obesity fits in the covid debate. People smoke because their peers smoke because it makes them look cool, peer pressure. People don't catch covid on purpose because it makes them look cool. People don't get fat because it makes them look cool.
Nobody becomes a land whale on purpose, unless they have a very specific feeding/eating fetish, in which case they also offer from a mental disorder. Not that any of this matters, my point was that obesity is in fact contagious, and I’ve made that point already - there’s plenty of studies to support that, and I’ve really lost the interest in arguing about it any further.
 

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Nobody becomes a land whale on purpose, unless they have a very specific feeding/eating fetish, in which case they also offer from a mental disorder. Not that any of this matters, my point was that obesity is in fact contagious, and I’ve made that point already - there’s plenty of studies to support that, and I’ve really lost the interest in arguing about it any further.
And the study shows it contagious. But this is a covid debate. I lost interest also last 2 posts ago. I have no idea where this is going.
 

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And the study shows it contagious. But this is a covid debate. I lost interest also last 2 posts ago. I have no idea where this is going.
It’s not my fault that you misinterpreted my post. FAST was getting some pushback on the idea that obesity isn’t just a personal choice, but rather a contagious phenomenon. I came in to say that social contagions are very much real and that obesity is one such contagion. It has measurable effects, and they’re repeatable. That, and that only, was my 2 cents added to the exchange.
 

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It’s not my fault that you misinterpreted my post. FAST was getting some pushback on the idea that obesity isn’t just a personal choice, but rather a contagious phenomenon. I came in to say that social contagions are very much real and that obesity is one such contagion. It has measurable effects, and they’re repeatable. That, and that only, was my 2 cents added to the exchange.
If you wanna look at it as a social contagion if mama is fat and the kid is fat likely the crap she is eating herself she's feeding to her kids. Since food is social, that's where a lot of the bonding happens, the two or more people will be eating the same meals or same place.
 
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