Austria first country to make Covid vaccine mandatory

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I did not claim to want people to want to force people to be vaccinated nor even show support for mandatory vaccination. I am on the mindset that the government shouldn’t force people to do anything.
That's strange because you only seem to like the posts that are pro mandate and never the ones that are pro choice? Are you making an exemption to your core values because you strongly believe the science? That was rhetorical I'll assume yes. So therefore, would you be willing to change this view if at some point down the line there is scientific evidence that the (as yet unknown) long term effects of the MRNA vaccines are problematic? Because, you are making your risk/reward judgement based on only short term data right now, which obviously favours vaccination over disease for a lot of people (myself included).
 
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That's strange because you only seem to like the posts that are pro mandate and never the ones that are pro choice? Are you making an exemption to your core values because you strongly believe the science? That was rhetorical I'll assume yes. So therefore, would you be willing to change this view if at some point down the line there is scientific evidence that the (as yet unknown) long term effects of the MRNA vaccines are problematic? Because, you are making your risk/reward judgement based on only short term data right now, which obviously favours vaccination over disease for a lot of people (myself included).
Where did I state anything that's pro-mandate? That being said, I am always willing to change my position on a matter when proven wrong. At the same time, I find it highly unlikely that I would be wrong as evidence of long-term harm would have shown itself long before this point. I've also yet to be shown evidence that backs up the paranoia of possible long-term side effects. This isn't to say I won't change if the evidence is presented, but it is to say that evidence has not been presented and it seems far more unlikely for that hypothetical evidence to be presented.
 
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RAHelllord

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I'm okay with vaccine mandates as long as they're sensible. For example disallowing nation wide access to public services that put a lot of strangers into tight spaces (public transit, publicly accessible institutions, libraries, schools, etc) unless the person is vaccinated. Then add fines if they try to access those things in person without being vaccinated. Exceptions would need to exist for people that can't get vaccinated, of course. But otherwise just fuck those people, if they can't be arsed to do what they can to protect other people around them no reason to allow them to participate in what society provides to them via taxes from everyone. If they don't want the shot they can just stay at home or in the woods and have their food delivered to them, that's their personal freedom right there.
 
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Where did I state anything that's pro-mandate? That being said, I am always willing to change my position on a matter when proven wrong. At the same time, I find it highly unlikely that I would be wrong as evidence of long-term harm would have shown itself long before this point. I've also yet to be shown evidence that backs up the paranoia of possible long-term side effects. This isn't to say I won't change if the evidence is presented, but it is to say that evidence has not been presented and it seems far more unlikely for that hypothetical evidence to be presented.
It's all theoretical science at the moment since you can't get long term data without a long amount of time passing. There is particular concern about the spike protein entering the nuclei of cells, which could hamper DNA repair.

Edit: I should add that this could also happen with the disease, but that brings us back to the risk/reward argument.
 

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That's strange because you only seem to like the posts that are pro mandate and never the ones that are pro choice? Are you making an exemption to your core values because you strongly believe the science? That was rhetorical I'll assume yes. So therefore, would you be willing to change this view if at some point down the line there is scientific evidence that the (as yet unknown) long term effects of the MRNA vaccines are problematic? Because, you are making your risk/reward judgement based on only short term data right now, which obviously favours vaccination over disease for a lot of people (myself included).
If you like books I would suggest reading up on how mRNA vaccines work and how the way they work makes it practically impossible to have long-term effects manifest after a couple weeks have passed. The book Immune from kurzgesagt is a great read on the matter and makes it pretty clear that, if your immune system doesn't kill you within a couple days of the injection, they're safe "forever".

The incredibly abridged tl;dr is that the mRNA makes a bunch of your cells produce the spike protein, your white blood cells see that protein on some of your cells near the injection site, activates the full immune system response because those shouldn't be there, tells these cells to commit Sudoku, vacuums up the corpses, turns them into jigsaw puzzles, takes all parts to the helper cells, develops antibodies for the spike proteins and boom, your immune system now has a weapon ready to go against the real deal. All the mRNA vaccine parts left in your body will be eaten by the white blood cells, turned into harmless nutrients, and used up like normal. Anything they can't eat leaves through your bladder in a couple weeks. The antibodies are just the normal things your body produces against any other infections, too, just tailor made against those proteins.

Again, I highly recommend the book, personally I found it fascinating.
 

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Easy to say, hard to define. If you're aiming for human rights where you get to do whatever you want whenever you want, I'd invite you come out from under your rock. On the other hand, if we pursue human rights as an optimization to allow the most amount of freedom for everyone in society as a *whole*, the vaccine mandate falls completely under that.
My rights exist to protect me from you, the government and society as a whole, they’re referred to as individual rights for a reason. I have rights, “society” is just a collectivised goo that exists to obfuscate that fact. They specifically exist to protect the individual from the many, not the many from the individual.
 
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It's all theoretical science at the moment since you can't get long term data without a long amount of time passing. There is particular concern about the spike protein entering the nuclei of cells, which could hamper DNA repair.

Edit: I should add that this could also happen with the disease, but that brings us back to the risk/reward argument.
The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective. The idea that the vaccines are going to "hamper DNA repair" is conspiracy theory nonsense pulled out of your ass. You know what has been demonstrated to potentially result in the hampering of DNA repair? Actually contracting COVID-19.
 

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The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective. The idea that the vaccines are going to "hamper DNA repair" is conspiracy theory nonsense pulled out of your ass. You know what has been demonstrated to potentially result in the hampering of DNA repair? Actually contracting COVID-19.
Can you demonstrate something to be safe and effective in a year for most medical purposes? Trials I generally read about go over for a lot longer timeframes. Either something was rushed here, or things normally are delayed needlessly.
You can certainly make a reasonable case for it, especially with as wide a deployment, but there will ever be long term questions, as there might be about anything -- see the fun cross reactions with people having once been on certain antidepressants and taking quit smoking things years after the fact, or with viruses then polio and the particular cancer a lot of survivors got in later life.
 

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It's all theoretical science at the moment since you can't get long term data without a long amount of time passing. There is particular concern about the spike protein entering the nuclei of cells, which could hamper DNA repair.

Edit: I should add that this could also happen with the disease, but that brings us back to the risk/reward argument.
Just wondering, but what are you quoting here? There’s been plenty of research conducted since the discovery of mRNA to determine the side-effects, both short-term and possible long-term. mRNA isn’t something that was created recently and has been proven to be safe. Considering clinical trials on humans have been going on since 2013, we would have had seen signs potential “long-term side effects” by this point. Vaccines don’t remain in the body for that long, long-term damage would have shown itself within a few hours to days, not weeks or even years down the line.
 

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It's all theoretical science at the moment since you can't get long term data without a long amount of time passing. There is particular concern about the spike protein entering the nuclei of cells, which could hamper DNA repair.

Edit: I should add that this could also happen with the disease, but that brings us back to the risk/reward argument.
I didn't actually see this before I posted my reply: The spike protein is part of the outer shell of the virus and is only used to dock the virus to a host cell and help entry through the outer membrane. The actual parts of the virus that can then affect DNA and cause the virus to replicate inside your cells are not part of the spike protein. The vaccine makes your body create what is effectively a docking nozzle of the entire thing, nothing else. The antibodies your body produces afterwards clumps the viruses together at those docking nozzles so they can be eaten more easily by the white blood cells in your body. And as said previously every single cell that produced that spike protein in your body after the vaccine will be killed by the immune system within a few days at most, without a single exception.
 

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Can you demonstrate something to be safe and effective in a year for most medical purposes? Trials I generally read about go over for a lot longer timeframes. Either something was rushed here, or things normally are delayed needlessly.
You can certainly make a reasonable case for it, especially with as wide a deployment, but there will ever be long term questions, as there might be about anything -- see the fun cross reactions with people having once been on certain antidepressants and taking quit smoking things years after the fact, or with viruses then polio and the particular cancer a lot of survivors got in later life.
First, the vaccines have undergone extensive safety testing for closer to two years, not one year. Second, the Pfizer vaccine has gotten full FDA approval in the United States and has met the same rigorous safety standards as any other vaccine. Third, and perhaps most notably, the vaccine is completely out of your system within days/weeks of getting your last dose. The science is very clear that the risk of long-term effects from the vaccines is nearly zero, and that's far from the risk of long-term effects associated with actually contracting COVID-19. If your goal isn't to get sick, isn't to be hospitalized, isn't to spread the disease to others, isn't to suffer long-term effects, and isn't to die, vaccination is by far your best bet.

To get a little more on topic, vaccine mandates are a good thing, they work, and we already have a precedent for them in most countries I can think of.
 
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First, the vaccines have undergone extensive safety testing for closer to two years, not one year. Second, the Pfizer vaccine has gotten full FDA approval in the United States and has met the same rigorous safety standards as any other vaccine. Third, and perhaps most notably, the vaccine is completely out of your system within days/weeks of getting your last dose. The science is very clear that the risk of long-term effects from the vaccines is nearly zero, and that's far from the risk of long-term effects associated with actually contracting COVID-19. If your goal isn't to get sick, isn't to be hospitalized, isn't to spread the disease to others, isn't to suffer long-term effects, and isn't to die, vaccination is by far your best bet.

To get a little more on topic, vaccine mandates are a good thing, they work, and we already have a precedent for them in most countries I can think of.
Is it full FDA nowadays or still the somewhat emergency setup? Details matter. Do I want to trust the FDA that much (can't imagine there is no pressure involved in this one, and they almost buckled to addyi/flibanserin the other year, their hands get tied in numerous ways as well if we want to consider supplements) as well?

Also I recall reading the first trials (general safety rather than efficacy, which has some question marks even if way over placebo) rather later into the game such that closer to year than now, or just maybe ticked over if you round up.

Out of your system and effects of it are different matters, else we would need boosters once per month.

Precedent for them is there, would be surprised if not. Whether this meets the precedent is a different matter; death and serious complication rates are notable compared to common cold but far from ebola, rabies or sleeping sickness, transmissibility is high but not measles (one case makes about eight more I think it was, when stay in your home citizen was combined with shoving a sock over a nostril the debates were between R numbers rather lower than that) and incubation/infectious periods are not necessarily the worst either.
It also begs the question why this and not the resurgent measles (which has possibly higher hospitalisation rates, and not for simple IV and go home) in years past, or flu in general (annual tolls for that are still in the "very few wars in history beat this"). Is kung flu that much more dangerous that it justifies this move? In terms of pure danger then the prevalance of fat cunts, alcoholics, smokers (of those that do then how many ultimately die from it, and not always in nice cheap ways with all of those also whilst making life less pleasant for all concerned) and more besides is also rather crippling to society and health systems, and precedents exist to do things there too.
 
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If you like books I would suggest reading up on how mRNA vaccines work and how the way they work makes it practically impossible to have long-term effects manifest after a couple weeks have passed. The book Immune from kurzgesagt is a great read on the matter and makes it pretty clear that, if your immune system doesn't kill you within a couple days of the injection, they're safe "forever".

The incredibly abridged tl;dr is that the mRNA makes a bunch of your cells produce the spike protein, your white blood cells see that protein on some of your cells near the injection site, activates the full immune system response because those shouldn't be there, tells these cells to commit Sudoku, vacuums up the corpses, turns them into jigsaw puzzles, takes all parts to the helper cells, develops antibodies for the spike proteins and boom, your immune system now has a weapon ready to go against the real deal. All the mRNA vaccine parts left in your body will be eaten by the white blood cells, turned into harmless nutrients, and used up like normal. Anything they can't eat leaves through your bladder in a couple weeks. The antibodies are just the normal things your body produces against any other infections, too, just tailor made against those proteins.

Again, I highly recommend the book, personally I found it fascinating.
I believe the concern is with the vaccine leaving the injection site in the bloodstream due to improper administration. I don't know about you but every time I got mine the person didn't aspirate first and it scared the crap out of me that they could be hitting vein. I don't think the evidence is yet clear enough on what could happen for every possible variation that could occur. In fact, my personal feeling is that this could be the cause of such inconsistent side effects across the board.

Edit: @RAHelllord I posted this in the other thread but it explains what I'm trying to say. It's a bit technical but not overly so

 
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My rights exist to protect me from you, the government and society as a whole, they’re referred to as individual rights for a reason. I have rights, “society” is just a collectivised goo that exists to obfuscate that fact. They specifically exist to protect the individual from the many, not the many from the individual.

Society is a collective goo.....made of, wait what, individuals?! Your rights exist until they harm other people. If you're a walking petri dish your right to continue walking around should not and, as Austria decided, does not take precedent over someone else's right to live. Sure you're not walking down the street swinging a knife but the compounded effect of an unvaccinated group to the immunocompromised is the same.
 

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Society is a collective goo.....made of, wait what, individuals?! Your rights exist until they harm other people. If you're a walking petri dish your right to continue walking around should not and, as Austria decided, does not take precedent over someone else's right to live. Sure you're not walking down the street swinging a knife but the compounded effect of an unvaccinated group to the immunocompromised is the same.
Of course it does, the Austrian government doesn’t have the right to detain people without due process, especially if they haven’t committed a crime. You have zero evidence that someone who’s not vaccinated has the disease, or that they can transmit it to you, or that you’re even under any risk of catching it. Your analogy doesn’t apply - you’re penalising people for having pockets where they may or may not carry a knife. You don’t know if they have one, let alone whether they can swing one at you or not. You’re operating under the assumption that everyone is guilty unless proven innocent, which is psychotic and counter to all the rules of civilised society. You’re not under threat, you’re just a hypochondriac, and nobody is under any obligation to humour your neuroticism. If you are vulnerable, or feel vulnerable, the onus is on you to take necessary precautions in order to ensure your own personal safety. Please demonstrate the harm you are personally experiencing. Might be difficult considering not being vaccinated does not translate into spreading the disease.
 

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I believe the concern is with the vaccine leaving the injection site in the bloodstream due to improper administration. I don't know about you but every time I got mine the person didn't aspirate first and it scared the crap out of me that they could be hitting vein. I don't think the evidence is yet clear enough on what could happen for every possible variation that could occur. In fact, my personal feeling is that this could be the cause of such inconsistent side effects across the board.

Edit: @RAHelllord I posted this in the other thread but it explains what I'm trying to say. It's a bit technical but not overly so

Aspirating a vaccine needle is only done in a few parts of the US and some other nations. Not a single vaccine shot is given like that in Germany, for example. It's an archaic practice that simply hasn't been found to have benefits or detriments so it's basically random how any given nation uses it, and it likely has so little impact either way that nobody bothered running studies on whether it's useful or not.

The video is also saying that it's not been confirmed at all and that everything is just a big old "maybe". But even then, the spike protein can only be created by the mRNA that is part of the vaccine, and that mRNA is used up quickly. The spike protein itself is neither contained in the vaccine, nor can it self replicate, and never enters the bloodstream directly, as it's created inside your body cells, which then get told to kill themselves as soon as they start making those spike proteins. If it does affect the nuclei the cells that were affected will be dead after a few days and the damage can't propagate at all. While there are exosomes that feature that spike in the bloodstream, those seemingly only persist for a few months and then stop being a thing, too. But those spike exosomes also can't enter the nuclei directly and the spike protein stays on the outside of the cells, they don't break off and enter further cells.

And of course, no protein spikes enter the bloodstream by themselves: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-safe-idUSL2N2NX1J6

Also, any time a study shows something in-vitro (meaning inside a petri dish only) take it with an extreme amount of salt, not just a grain. Cells behave radically different in a petri dish because there are billions of other compounds and other cells missing to interact with them. Particularly the entire defense system of the human immune system is not present in a petri dish, which would usually find misbehaving cells very, very quickly unless a few other things go wrong perfectly, too.

The video you linked was actually quite interesting, though he did gloss over a few mechanisms like the forced apoptose after the cells have created the spike protein, something that the real virus would try to prevent for as long as possible but the healthy cell can't prevent, which directly affects how much of a threat either of those two scenarios are.

Edit: Apoptose in particular is important because that causes the cell to split itself into fully contained small "trashbags" containing all contents of the cell. This effectively prevents anything to spill out of the cell, these parts get then eaten and digested by white blood cells, turning all complex proteins into harmless base nutrients they then poop out into your body.
 
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Society is a collective goo.....made of, wait what, individuals?! Your rights exist until they harm other people. If you're a walking petri dish your right to continue walking around should not and, as Austria decided, does not take precedent over someone else's right to live. Sure you're not walking down the street swinging a knife but the compounded effect of an unvaccinated group to the immunocompromised is the same.
So is smoking, so is alcohol, so is being fat, so is driving more than just over walking pace, so is pumping out a bunch of pretty much destined to be criminals because you can't/won't figure out birth control... all of those solved probably with less effort than even if this virus could be solved with a single injection of saline into a compliant populous (plenty of substances effectively banned, exercise is not hard, speed limits are a thing, birth licenses/forced sterilisation is easy). So was it in the years leading up to now with actually far worse diseases (more transmissible, more serious adverse effects) or diseases measured on the same scales (see flu most years).
Was it a failure in the past, double standards or is this actually justified by some standard (maybe for reasons I am not considering)? Or is it an overreach by a fearful government running at the behest of the tyranny of the majority?
 
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