?
  1. Yes, their bodies, their choices!

    17 vote(s)
    15.9%
  2. No, I am pro-choice [abortion], but for enforced mask-wearing in public.

    69 vote(s)
    64.5%
  3. Yes, let us not be careless about human life!

    13 vote(s)
    12.1%
  4. No, I am pro-life [abortion] but against mandatory mask-wearing in public.

    8 vote(s)
    7.5%
  5. 107 voter(s)
  1. wiindsurf

    wiindsurf Member
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    Ah, OK, I'm sorry, I had taken your post as witty sarcasm.

    Abortion is a tough subject... I have some indirect experiences, and these things are too personal and hurtful. One lady I know had her mind changed but went on to raise the kid in total neglect. The kid suffers from multiple health and psychological issues, and got rejected by his dad as a weirdo after meeting him for the first time as a teenager, when they were meant to spend a summer break together.
    Life is though and complex, and perhaps it is very naive for us to attempt to judge and simplify people's choices like we have all the pieces of the puzzle...
     
    Last edited by wiindsurf, Aug 10, 2020
  2. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA No Hope, No Escape, No Mask
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    Here's my thoughts.

    Masks are unnecessary, as we have Hydroxychloroquine.
    There is, however, no cure for being aborted.
     
  3. Tomobobo

    Tomobobo Champion.
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    It's definitely interesting to see the different views on the pandemic. Even in my own social circle views are so radically different. It's as if these issues were created to divide people, to give them something to fight about, to be right and wrong about.
     
  4. anhminh

    anhminh Pirate since 2010
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    I never understand how abortion is anyone damn business except the one who carry the child and their family. Having a child is a very personal business and it should be treat like one. It mean outsider shouldn't stick their nose into it, let alone government dictate it. Just check out "One child policy" from China to see how well did it go.

    And I don't even know why wearing mask should be anything to debate about. It just down right stupid no matter how you look at it.
     
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  5. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    I know I mostly already went but

    Questions to be asking.

    Masks
    What are the costs?
    Cost of purchase, annoyance of use (they are hardly "just there", usually hot, usually moist, might fog up your glasses), loss of visual signals (can't see you mouth and I can't hear, can't use non verbal communications, hard to see intent in some people -- covering your face is a fun one in a lot of countries/high trust societies), supply issues for those that do benefit from them (does that mean those a few months back claiming they were not necessary were either morons or merely misdirecting people such that the medics could have some), potential infection vector of their own (most are reused and not disposed of, or possibly worn only when "necessary" and be floating in the breeze the rest of the time, so in essence it might harbour some close to your airways)

    What are the benefits?
    There are two primary things it might do
    1) Stop your disgusting fluids from going further into the world, or maybe in as great a volume.
    2) Stop disgusting fluids from the world going into you.

    There are two main professions that deal with masks. They are medics and those that work with airborne particles (grinding, painting, sanding, inspection work with mould spores, asbestos and what have you). I have trained the latter and spoken to many that trained the former -- despite knowledge of why something needs to be done it is still often something that has to be beaten into them aka it is a hard learned skill.

    2) tends to warrant a more specialist type, and probably wants to be combined with eye protection too as that is almost as nice a infection location as inhaling it or shooting it up and also plenty visible. Seriously expensive and in some cases harder to wear.

    1) To what degree does this have any effect? To what degree might it matter? Does 1000 particles matter more than 1 million if it is novel and my immune system has never seen it before? Said 1000 vs 1 million also becomes a debate when sneezing through a bit of cloth vs some actually well fabricated and properly worn device -- germs, viruses and airborne particles tending to be rather smaller than the weave of a standard count (or even high count) cotton cloth.
    Likewise how far am I to stay away from someone? Varies about the place, and most of them seem far less than I can get if I gob a mouthful of coloured water, stand next to a wall, cough and see the results).

    What if most people the people out and about are less likely to have serious negative outcomes where those that are in turn are sitting in their houses? What are said negative outcomes and should people care? Death and serious complication rates among certain groups (that being young and otherwise healthy, which is a sizeable chunk of the population) are rather low it seems (and we have enough numbers to be doing nice sampling on). Calculations are made about such things all the time regardless of what your healthcare payment method of choice is. What is the mutation risk that it becomes something truly fun (more exposure, more mutation)?

    Is there a placebo effect? 100 years ago an infection was a serious serious thing. Today we have antibiotics so people can afford to be a lot more cavalier in their approaches, this may change if and when resistance picks up but different discussion there. If wearing a mask then sees many more people go out in the world and frequent shops under the potentially false delusion that they are protected (be it from 2) above or 1) being so widespread) does it mean more in the economy and not collapsing or collapsing as quick -- money may or may not the world go round via a root of all evil but a lack of it directly links to misery, suicide, abuse and neglect (sort yourself before you sort others, basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs there)

    Are some of these then like counteracting a hurricane with a choicely aimed fart? Outside my house I don't have, certainly have not had a medic or government that presumably cares tell me to make, a little plastic tarp that I strip my clothes off and chuck into a bucket of bleach upon returning to then proceed for a scrub down, nor do I have an isolation setup in my house. If this was a nice big boy disease you do have such things.

    Abortion.
    What are the reasons people are against it?
    The hand holding logic of some in the thread would be that if they value life (a debatable concept in the case of abortion) that presumably they should also value the lives of others and that a mask might do some good in helping others live.

    This is a massive oversimplification from where I sit as there are both many other reasons someone might be against abortion, somewhat popular ones even if we are to go with real world stuff and not just logical debate or oddities, and because the efficacy of masks and the annoyances they could stand to be questioned or their practical efficacy* assessed. Not to mention if one was true then the reverse would presumably be in this case too and it does not seem logically dissonant to operate under the assumption that masks will save us all and still not care if someone scrapes a few cells (cells with no ability to suffer even) out of their womb (or has chemicals do it for them) because their efforts to prevent sperm from meeting egg (not sure why we might choose fertilisation or implantation as the point of no return with things before being just fine but it is a thing that is out there) failed for whatever reason, and in doing so saves themselves $400000 USD or more over the next 20 years (that is a small business, house, retirement fund, investment portfolio, fun hobby, or otherwise pretty decent life) plus a litany of other health, career and social effects that probably make that $400000 seem like small change (certainly the damages in the court case if a medic left a cancer ball or parasite in there because they could not be arsed and caused similar effects would be rather higher).
    Equally "no effect on the world at large"... an unwanted child becomes an unwanted adult (not to mention reduces pool of existing adults) and that effects us all -- who do you think does most of the crimes and nastiness, means you can't learn all the fun stuff in schools, and generally means people get to act less openly to mitigate the effects of such things?

    *if we are sticking with abortion related stats. Methods of prevention are available. Take a pill every day and you are good, use a condom correctly and also pretty good. Fail to take a pill (and over a population that is a reasonable number, and we know this from any number of drugs -- full course of antibiotics and all that) or fail to know how to use one (all those nice places that do abstinence only probably giving a nice sample) and the population wide efficacy drops quite notably.
     
  6. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    1. The preponderance of evidence suggests masks are an effective method of preventing transmission.
    2. The preponderance of evidence suggests hydroxychloroquine is not an effective method of reducing transmission, symptoms, or mortality.
    3. A woman has a right to her bodily autonomy with regard to pregnancy.
     
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  7. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA No Hope, No Escape, No Mask
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    Yes, masks are effective, but they shouldn't be mandatory. Hydroxychloroquine has been supported by many doctors, and the studies that claim it won't work likely don't use zinc, or they use too much, or they give it too late.

    As for abortion, a woman has no right to kill a baby.
     
  8. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    Masks should be mandatory is public spaces as a matter of public health. A person's rights stop where another person's rights begin. In other words, your rights don't include the right to get other people sick in public places.

    For example, a person has a right to be nude, but those rights stop where another person's right to not have to see you nude in public begins.

    The preponderance of evidence suggests hydroxychloroquine is not an effective treatment, and it's not supported by a lot of doctors. One of the doctors you've cited, Harvey Risch, cites problematic studies, including but not limited to the fact that none of the studies he cites are randomized controlled trials.

    I brought up in the other thread that you have yet to satisfactorily explain the basis for focusing on a small set of cherry-picked studies that support your position but ignoring the preponderance of studies that contradict your position.

    Fetuses aren't babies. Embryos aren't babies. A woman has a right to her bodily autonomy regardless of whether or not it's a baby.
     
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  9. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    A medication that is still being trialled, has a limited window of effectiveness and the like (not sure it even is but have not kept up, would be amazing though as existing things functioning as anti virals is almost unheard of). See also prevention is better than a cure, not that I am seeing much benefit to the mask lark in a practical reality (if everybody was beardless and time tested medics/grinding mechanics wearing proper gear vs the public being anything but that, to say nothing of the question of herd immunity).

    Equally good thing a foetus is not a baby, and even if that little bit of wordplay is not enough it does seem to be a right possessed in most of the 1st world in both law and medical ethics.
     
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  10. JaapDaniels

    JaapDaniels GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    actiually i'm against enforced mask wearing
     
  11. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    On what basis?
     
  12. kineticUk

    kineticUk GBAtemp Fan
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    I’ve been asked to wear a mask and I’m wearing one more for the safety/sake of others than my own but also because wearing one isn’t a big deal.

    And it’s their choice and none of my business or yours.
     
    Last edited by kineticUk, Aug 12, 2020
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  13. Olmectron

    Olmectron GBAtemp Addict
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    I'm a NPC.
     
  14. 1stmoon

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    Infecting others should not be a choice. If you can't even do the bare minimum of putting on a mask then it's quite clear you're incredibly selfish and have a lack of understanding of science.
     
  15. th3joker

    th3joker GBAtemp Fan
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    I am anti mask pro abotion and belive in death by firing squad before trial
     
  16. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA No Hope, No Escape, No Mask
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    What about asthmatics?

    They have heartbeats, therefore they are living.
     
  17. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    Asthmatics can and should wear masks.

    I didn't say a fetus/embryo wasn't alive. I said it wasn't a baby. Whether or not something that is violating a woman's right to bodily autonomy is alive is irrelevant to whether or not it's violating the aforementioned right to bodily autonomy.

    I don't typically watch videos people post at me. You're free to summarize points from the video, but I doubt they contradict anything I've said on the topic.
     
    Last edited by Lacius, Aug 11, 2020
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  18. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    First heartbeat is a while into things. Not to mention why would I adopt that as a definition of life, much less a useful benchmark in this scenario (life is one thing, suffering quite another and most medicine is concerned with the latter. Indeed even if it is life then if it can't suffer and pregnancy is a horrible experience and raising a kid not much better causes a person we have already invested years into to suffer for most of the rest of their life...)?
     
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  19. Boesy

    Boesy GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    I don't like to wear a mask, but if an establishment requires then I will. Am I in favor of life or abortion? I don't care, the woman who's impregnated needs to figure her life out and what to do with the life growing inside her.

    Also, saying "science" doesn't actually prove masks are a reliable tool, but whatever. I'm not interested in getting into an argument, anyway.

    A woman whom I speak to was recently sexually harassed and she can't identify the man (doesn't even deserve to be called a man, tbh) because he hid his face behind a mask. Now you don't even know who's about to commit a crime. Great.
     
  20. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA No Hope, No Escape, No Mask
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    >people with breathing problems wear masks
    "Keep it on or you'll kill me!"
    >black man gets arrested for drug abuse and counterfeiting
    "What the hell are you doing?! He can't even breathe!"
    How is it not a baby, though?
    1. Dennis Prager has been taking Hydroxychloroquine himself to avoid getting the Holocough.
    2. The Lancet in England and the NE Journal of Medicine here in the US have been forced to take down articles against Hydroxychloroquine because they were based purely on politics.
    3. Big Pharma is against Hydroxychloroquine because it's too cheap compared to Remdesivir.
    4. Doctors are keeping people in the first stages of the Holocough.
    5. Many of the doctors advocating for Hydroxychloroquine are real doctors.
    6. People are dying because they're not getting Hydroxychloroquine.
    7. Dennis Prager takes Hydroxychloroquine because it works.
    8. The studies you believe in don't use zinc, or they use it too late, or they use too much.
     
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