Am I the only person with consistent views? (COVID19/abortion)

[FAST6191]

This thread was started to cause arguments and somehow validate the OP's weird association between masks and Abortions. The old life of the unborn zygote vs the life of a woman. The OP thinks these things are optional apparently. Also HE thinks it's HIS business what SHE does with HER body. Something tells me that this is a bit more poignant to the OP. I can't think of a woman who would want someone like that to have a baby go full term in HER uterus. Maybe she didn't. Maybe that's where HIS hangup began. Masks are not a choice. STOP POLITICIZING MASKS AND GOOD HYGIENE! What the fuck is wrong with you? Your mask could potentially save thousands of lives. And even if it just saves 1 life,wear it you selfish prick. What if another moron reads this and stops wearing their mask??!? Stupidity is contagious. Stop it.

So the true consistency in the OPS views is that HE thinks HE deserves control of HER body. Because it's HIS choice. Somehow wearing a mask to protect his Grandma and society at large is also his prerogative. These two issues are not choices and he thinks he has a right to choose. Masks are mandatory for a reason. Because we can't rely on the dullards to do what's right! It only take one to spoil the bunch. Not a choice, it's your duty. Abortion is a WOMAN'S RIGHTS issue. Also not a choice for the OP. There's your consistency.

Some of that is not as sound from where I sit.

I can't get to the OP's logic by any means but to pick up a few things there

I probably would go with why do I care what happens to an unthinking, unfeeling bundle of cells that if left unchecked would grow and consume the life/wellbeing of a person, one that likely has had thousands of hours invested in them and untold societal connections.

If however you do go with the line of logic that says it is or as near as does not matter is a life (few have ever really managed to qualify that in anything close to something I would want to roll with, never mind answered any counters like why that point/delineation) then destroying it is functionally that and would in turn be a moral question.
If it is a moral question, and even with the cells things above it eventually becomes one as time goes on and edge cases happen, then most such things do become a societal moral question.


Mask wise. There are costs associated with every action. One then gets to do a cost-benefit analysis. There are some far from insubstantial costs in enforcing some kind of mask use (monetary/resources, societal, waste), and perks are not universal and massive (even more so if we consider practical efficacy vs ideal and wind in people thinking a mask actually does something for them and in turn risk themselves and others).
What would save more people in the world, even more so if this little virus lark gets put to bed before long and we look long term, is if everybody (or near enough) had paramedic training and mandatory first aid kids not unlike people basically get to carry ID around the place. We don't however do that. Said hypothetical grandma can also be a morbidly obese alcoholic opiate addled chainsmoker too and society generally can't or won't do much, and there is also a limit to how much gets paid to help the medical issues that sort as a result. Are we failing as a society for not handing over a blank cheque to fix them?
If we constrain ourselves to this present virus lark there are plenty of measures beyond masks that would have even more effect than trying to get untrained people to wear a mediocre mask in a useful manner, for instance the whole stay in your house there citizen lark (no contact, maybe even actual no contact rather than "daily act of exercise", is a remarkably effective way of reducing transmission, even more so than masks and maybe distance and maybe gloves and maybe hoping people can use proper sanitiser effectively and have all the best will in the world).
Even if the question becomes when do masks no longer find themselves needed, what measures should be in place to encourage their use (laws, social stigma, what do businesses get to say) and what exemptions might there be then it can stand to be debated. If they say jump then best to ask why rather than how high...

 

[vincentx77]

"Virus lark"? Really? That's just plain reductive, idiotic, and frankly terrifying when you're talking about a deadly, highly transmissible virus. Apparently it just doesn't click for you because you can't see it. I distinctly remember when pretty much everyone started allowing themselves to be anally fucked (pretty much literally) every time they got on a plane because of the 9/11 attacks. Now you're bitching because basically cops would have to arrest people who didn't comply with mask ordeniences in public (that's the money that would be spent, btw). Get real.

I also love how you've made this hypothetical grandmother a fat heroin addict. Oh, that chain smokes. Even if that were the case (which most of the time, isn't bloody likely), she's still alive, she's still someone's loved one, and has at least as much worth as that clump of cells you go on and on about defending. You'll spend endless money on a fetus until it gets here, and once it's born, fuck it. Everyone deserves health care, even if they've made poor choices along the way. If the procedures drug-addict granny would need are too expensive, maybe we should start by actually getting the price of these services down to a reasonable price in the first place.

The whole point of getting proper protocols in place is so we'll have them in case another pandemic occurs. Hell, even if a city were to have a localized outbreak of something nasty, measures like these enacted swiftly could stop it from becoming something bigger, like perhaps another covid-19.

 

[mikefor20]

Some of that is not as sound from where I sit.

I can't get to the OP's logic by any means but to pick up a few things there

I probably would go with why do I care what happens to an unthinking, unfeeling bundle of cells that if left unchecked would grow and consume the life/wellbeing of a person, one that likely has had thousands of hours invested in them and untold societal connections.

If however you do go with the line of logic that says it is or as near as does not matter is a life (few have ever really managed to qualify that in anything close to something I would want to roll with, never mind answered any counters like why that point/delineation) then destroying it is functionally that and would in turn be a moral question.
If it is a moral question, and even with the cells things above it eventually becomes one as time goes on and edge cases happen, then most such things do become a societal moral question.


Mask wise. There are costs associated with every action. One then gets to do a cost-benefit analysis. There are some far from insubstantial costs in enforcing some kind of mask use (monetary/resources, societal, waste), and perks are not universal and massive (even more so if we consider practical efficacy vs ideal and wind in people thinking a mask actually does something for them and in turn risk themselves and others).
What would save more people in the world, even more so if this little virus lark gets put to bed before long and we look long term, is if everybody (or near enough) had paramedic training and mandatory first aid kids not unlike people basically get to carry ID around the place. We don't however do that. Said hypothetical grandma can also be a morbidly obese alcoholic opiate addled chainsmoker too and society generally can't or won't do much, and there is also a limit to how much gets paid to help the medical issues that sort as a result. Are we failing as a society for not handing over a blank cheque to fix them?
If we constrain ourselves to this present virus lark there are plenty of measures beyond masks that would have even more effect than trying to get untrained people to wear a mediocre mask in a useful manner, for instance the whole stay in your house there citizen lark (no contact, maybe even actual no contact rather than "daily act of exercise", is a remarkably effective way of reducing transmission, even more so than masks and maybe distance and maybe gloves and maybe hoping people can use proper sanitiser effectively and have all the best will in the world).
Even if the question becomes when do masks no longer find themselves needed, what measures should be in place to encourage their use (laws, social stigma, what do businesses get to say) and what exemptions might there be then it can stand to be debated. If they say jump then best to ask why rather than how high...

This is hilarious. Even entertaining the idea that you shouldn't be wearing a mask is dangerous. Stop telling other morons this stuff. It's getting out of hand. Masks are the only realistic way I can be sure YOU are doing your share. I can't tell if you washed your hands necessarily. I don't care anyway, you are filthy. If it's not something I am already exposed to I don't want it. That it the safest way. Everyone won't stay inside forever. I don't mind staying inside personally.. If I never had to go outside I would be okay with that. But realistically? Masks are the best solution. Sanitize too. Sanitizer is for YOU. Masks are for EVERYONE ELSE. WEAR IT! If I can get verbal assault for screaming "put on a FUCKING MASK YOU PIECE OF SHIT AND STOP SPREADING YOUR DISEASES! BOTH POLITICAL AND LITERAL" then you should get an assault charge for actually risking my life and not wearing a mask.

Picking and choosing who we protect as a society? Let the chain smokers etc etc.. total BS. Who are you to decide? Same person who thinks it's their right to dictate someone else does with their body. What a joke. I bet a few loved ones fall in those categories too. What a selfish thing to say. Let's just get rid of anyone stupid. Anyone who can't wear a mask or wear it correctly will be a good place to start. And back to YOUR reproductive rights, how about we revoke those as well. No more mask deniers,flat earthers,Nazis or Trump supporters. What a wonderful world it would be.

"Virus lark"? Really? That's just plain reductive, idiotic, and frankly terrifying when you're talking about a deadly, highly transmissible virus. Apparently it just doesn't click for you because you can't see it. I distinctly remember when pretty much everyone started allowing themselves to be anally fucked (pretty much literally) every time they got on a plane because of the 9/11 attacks. Now you're bitching because basically cops would have to arrest people who didn't comply with mask ordeniences in public (that's the money that would be spent, btw). Get real.

I also love how you've made this hypothetical grandmother a fat heroin addict. Oh, that chain smokes. Even if that were the case (which most of the time, isn't bloody likely), she's still alive, she's still someone's loved one, and has at least as much worth as that clump of cells you go on and on about defending. You'll spend endless money on a fetus until it gets here, and once it's born, fuck it. Everyone deserves health care, even if they've made poor choices along the way. If the procedures drug-addict granny would need are too expensive, maybe we should start by actually getting the price of these services down to a reasonable price in the first place.

The whole point of getting proper protocols in place is so we'll have them in case another pandemic occurs. Hell, even if a city were to have a localized outbreak of something nasty, measures like these enacted swiftly could stop it from becoming something bigger, like perhaps another covid-19.

WOAH, a brain! Thank you for restoring my faith, ever so slightly, in the human species. Bravo.

 

[FAST6191]

This is hilarious. Even entertaining the idea that you shouldn't be wearing a mask is dangerous. Stop telling other morons this stuff. It's getting out of hand.Masks are the only realistic way I can be sure YOU are doing your share. I can't tell if you washed your hands necessarily. I don't care anyway, you are filthy. If it's not something I am already exposed to I don't want it. That it the safest way. Everyone won't stay inside forever. I don't mind staying inside personally.. If I never had to go outside I would be okay with that. But realistically? Masks are the best solution. Sanitize too. Sanitizer is for YOU. Masks are for EVERYONE ELSE. WEAR IT! If I can get verbal assault for screaming "put on a FUCKING MASK YOU PIECE OF SHIT AND STOP SPREADING YOUR DISEASES! BOTH POLITICAL AND LITERAL" then you should get an assault charge for actually risking my life and not wearing a mask.

Picking and choosing who we protect as a society? Let the chainsmokers etc etc.. total BS. Who are you to decide? Same person who thinks it's their right to dictate someone else does with their body. What a joke. I bet a few loved ones fall in those categories too. What a selfish thing to say. Let's just get rid of anyone stupid. Anyone who can't wear a mask or wear it correctly will be a good place to start. And back to YOUR reproductive rights, how about we revoke those as well. No more mask deniers,flat earthers,nazis or trump supporters. What a wonderful world it would be.

My my we appear to have hit a nerve, indeed with the vehemence of such a reaction I can only assume it is a religious directive as that is the only thing that comes close in my past experience.

"realistic"
"realistically"
"are the best solution"
So this would seem there is scope for a debate as to the measures that can be taken.
Masks are not 100% effective, even less so when bad ones are attempted to be used by untrained people (training itself is something considerable -- I have trained grinding room types and spoken to those that do medics, despite both being reasonably aware of the consequences of improper protocol they still have to have it beaten into them).

Are the costs (one has to buy them, endure their use, be unable to lip read, be unable to see faces, false sense of bravado/immunity) worth the benefit (less spread of kung flu and other airborne diseases, which current infection/infectious counts are likely in the pretty low range), and to what degree should mask use be enforced? I live in the middle of the countryside and can walk around for hours without seeing anybody. Should... a police helicopter or something fly over and see me walking the dog around in a field send me a ticket despite nobody other than them being anywhere around? Should I need one from the moment I leave the house (if not before the door is open)? Just when going into enclosed spaces? Rather hard to eat food with one (though not impossible) so what do we do about restaurants? If no restaurants then what other businesses get shuttered? At what point does the cost to the economy? Do we allow gatherings of "non household" groups (and are masks mandatory in those scenarios?)?
Is there a timeframe for all this? Until infection counts drop below certain amounts? Until a vaccine gets made/viable? Said vaccine actually gets widely deployed? Until case count is such that herd immunity is plausibly a thing? Better treatment protocols such that it might be serious but not that much more than breaking a leg?
Even if for now mask wearing is deemed a cost worth bearing then I want to know the future plans and likely wind down to it.

Who am I to decide?
Just a person on the internet, same as the others here. Nothing much will probably come of it but it is an amusing distraction as I wait for death.
I equally never said anything about picking and choosing. I asked if one life is so valuable then why do we allow those to waste it (it appears personal choice is a greater ideal if you do allow it), and why don't we do more even for those that do such things. Even in places with nice healthcare systems they don't turn over the treasury when someone stubs their toe.

My reproductive rights? If that is a free vasectomy then yes please. I can continue enjoying a nice life of peace and quiet with no risk of kids. It was always the plan anyway.

Edit. Appears another reply possibly to me happened.

"Virus lark"? Really? That's just plain reductive, idiotic, and frankly terrifying when you're talking about a deadly, highly transmissible virus. Apparently it just doesn't click for you because you can't see it. I distinctly remember when pretty much everyone started allowing themselves to be anally fucked (pretty much literally) every time they got on a plane because of the 9/11 attacks. Now you're bitching because basically cops would have to arrest people who didn't comply with mask ordeniences in public (that's the money that would be spent, btw). Get real.

I also love how you've made this hypothetical grandmother a fat heroin addict. Oh, that chain smokes. Even if that were the case (which most of the time, isn't bloody likely), she's still alive, she's still someone's loved one, and has at least as much worth as that clump of cells you go on and on about defending. You'll spend endless money on a fetus until it gets here, and once it's born, fuck it. Everyone deserves health care, even if they've made poor choices along the way. If the procedures drug-addict granny would need are too expensive, maybe we should start by actually getting the price of these services down to a reasonable price in the first place.

The whole point of getting proper protocols in place is so we'll have them in case another pandemic occurs. Hell, even if a city were to have a localized outbreak of something nasty, measures like these enacted swiftly could stop it from becoming something bigger, like perhaps another covid-19.

Did you read my reply or attempt to understand my examples?
I literally said in the first proper paragraph (and you can find any number of posts in various abortion discussions around here with me espousing similar reasoning) that I would go with the bundle of cells approach. Lines get fuzzy when the potential for suffering happens (various numbers of weeks but it is up there at the several months line) and you want to have something like a good reason.

The fat chain smoking old opiates gobbler was not there to denigrate any potential candidate as much as pose a hypothetical about personal choice (they are allowed to be that). The second part of that was even so there are limits to what measures are taken, even for the 21 year old phd holding marathon runner if somehow we care about such things in these examples (though with the harping on about people being people then that would be odd) rather than every effort made to save everybody -- costs get weighed up, options picked or dismissed based upon them and somehow society is not in tatters and decried as awful. This is to say cost-benefit analysis was done and found that some costs are too steep for the results they produce.

High transmissible? I have not seen the current estimates for number of people on average transmitted to. Was about 1.6 last I looked. Enough for a nice exponential if you wanted but way short of some of the big boys there.
Deadly. Depends upon your age range and other morbidities it seems. Many things are deadly but we don't take extreme measures and adopt proportional ones to their relative threat. I would also hope data gets derived from this and used to influence future policies.

I am also failing to see the connection between security theatre at airports (give me £500 in the average duty free area of an airport and I will give you some horrible stuff that will bring airports to their knees, I have a few more skills than some in areas useful to that hobby but nothing they don't train tens of thousands of people a year in) and your bit there.

 

[notimp]

You only spread it if you have it.

But in 50% of people it is asymptomatic (you dont know that you have it), while you are most contagious. So those dont self isolate.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

But in 50% of people it is asymptomatic (you dont know that you have it), while you are most contagious. So those dont self isolate.

I'll be honest, that just sounds like a reason to face it head-on, if half of everybody who gets it feel nothing from it.

 

[notimp]

I'll be honest, that just sounds like a reason to face it head-on, if half of everybody who gets it feel nothing from it.

But then your hospitals get overrun and more people die. Because of characteristics of how fast it spreads (if you dont try to mitigate it somehow (do nothing)).

If you are thinking from the end (this gets stopped, when 60-70% of your population had it, or have been vaccinated, 'forcing' a higher spread rate would not be wrong.) As long as hospitals arent over capacity "you dont have to think so much about mask wearing". Statistically.

On the personal level is a little bit different, because even if you don't die from it, it actually doesnt make you stronger to have had it, it makes you weaker. (Lower lung capacity, inflamatory heart diseases as a secondary illness, ...) So there is a difference between getting immunity through infection, or through vaccination. Even as a young person. Statistically thats not as relevant ("not many more people die"), but for the individual it might be.

Also if you look at risk groups (f.e. homes for the elderly) you really, really have to do something there (mask wearing). And then it becomes an issue of 'do you isolate them from the rest of society?'. Thats also part of the "you do it for society" argument.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I regret having opened this thread. So much negative tension.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

 

[notimp]

Flu is coming leads to one direct issue - more people with covid like symptoms, meaning, more testing required for which of them should self quarantine.

And one indirect issue in the same time window - as weather gets colder, and more people spend their days inside - Covid-19 will spread faster again.
-

Apart from that - no flu related anything, as far as I'm aware of.
-

Also, stop reading aggitation bullsh*t, whose only claim to fame is 'glass ball reading'. If all you are doing on twitter is to make predictions without any reasoning - wait for a guy as dumb as UltraSUPRA to fall for it I guess.

Twitter predictions, without reasoning are useless. And it doesnt help if you put in two hateful nonsensical vitriol nonsequitors after it, because you still had a few characters left.

Again, how dumb do you have to be to repost this? You could literally have two accounts posting slightly the opposite, but because you dont have to provide reasoning - at least one hits, and then you refer to 'I've always said it, ...'.


And on a sidenote - its really, really much too late to be the Trump bootlicker for Covid-19 not problematic at all.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

The flu and COVID19 compete for hosts. A person who is currently the host for a flu virus cannot be a host for another virus, right?

 

[Lacius]

The flu and COVID19 compete for hosts. A person who is currently the host for a flu virus cannot be a host for another virus, right?

No, coinfection isn't only possible: It's apparently common.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

 

[Lacius]

View attachment 224084

That's not what happened at all.

 

[TajMacartney]

No, I am pro-choice [abortion], but for enforced mask-wearing in public.

 

[jimbo13]

I am against mandatory declarations over my body for any reason, at anytime. You can't/wont force me to wear a mask, goldstar or a big floppy purple phallus on my head because you think it is necessary. I reject any coerced collective responsibility, I am a sovereign living creature separate from you. You aren't going to tell me I can't ingest psilocybin or DMT on a daily basis as I choose to do, if I want to drink raw milk I am going to drink it.

I can't really equate it that position to abortion being a moderate. I don't believe in life at conception, I have no objections to early term & medically reasonable abortions but you also can't stab a living baby in the head because it happens to be in your uterus. There is a black, white and grey area during 9 months of gestation.

I think your better off with a mask vs drug use argument because you negate the possibility of a third party in this equation.

 

[mikefor20]

So many stupid and selfish people. Stop spreading your diseases and your stupidity. WEAR A MASK. if you don't I hope your loved ones all get COVID and suffer. While you watch.. I hope you were the cause. Think of all the people your non mask wearing COVID spewing upper anus possibly infected. You could be responsible for thousands of deaths. Who the hell are you to decide not to wear a mask. Selfish and stupid. Hope it's your Grandma who dies.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

So many stupid and selfish people. Stop spreading your diseases and your stupidity. WEAR A MASK. if you don't I hope your loved ones all get COVID and suffer. While you watch.. I hope you were the cause. Think of all the people your non mask wearing COVID spewing upper anus possibly infected. You could be responsible for thousands of deaths. Who the hell are you to decide not to wear a mask. Selfish and stupid. Hope it's your Grandma who dies.

"The Left advocates for peace and life."

 

[mikefor20]

"The Left advocates for peace and life."

I don't. I advocate for logic. And you bastards who put everyone at risk for your tribal stupidity bullshit need to go. I don't care if you live or die. Go to some island. Go to hell. Whatever. We voted out President Cammacho. Let's stop idiocracy from happening and get rid of all the non vaxxers, non maskers, people who eat raw bats, people who won't cover their mouths or don't wash their hands after they shit. Let them all go to hell. They deserve it for infecting everyone with ever disease ever.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

I don't. I advocate for logic. And you bastards who put everyone at risk for your tribal stupidity bullshit need to go. I don't care if you live or die. Go to some island. Go to hell. Whatever. We voted out President Cammacho. Let's stop idiocracy from happening and get rid of all the non vaxxers, non maskers, people who eat raw bats, people who won't cover their mouths or don't wash their hands after they shit. Let them all go to hell. They deserve it for infecting everyone with ever disease ever.

A world without faces isn't a world worth living in.