Al-Qaeda confirms bin Laden's death

[thaddius]

I will beat myself with wet willow branches in penance.

It's alright. I accept your apology.

I'm a little flabbergasted that a francophone has a better grasp of the English language than one of it's (presumed) natives, but I'll just blame the British education system for that one.

 

[Sheimi]

I might as well pack my stuff and get out of the US. Sheesh, when will this end?

 

[_Chaz_]

I might as well pack my stuff and get out of the US. Sheesh, when will this end?

lol, never.

 

[coolness]

I might as well pack my stuff and get out of the US. Sheesh, when will this end?

lol, never.

Never say Never

 

[_Chaz_]

I might as well pack my stuff and get out of the US. Sheesh, when will this end?

lol, never.

Never say Never

Alright.

It will not end in the foreseeable future.

 

[coolness]

I might as well pack my stuff and get out of the US. Sheesh, when will this end?

lol, never.

Never say Never

Alright.

It will not end in the foreseeable future.

better

 

[Miss Panda]

I will beat myself with wet willow branches in penance.

It's alright. I accept your apology.

I'm a little flabbergasted that a francophone has a better grasp of the English language than one of it's (presumed) natives, but I'll just blame the British education system for that one.

You couldn't counter my argument. When I pointed this out you called me a conspiracy theorist and a dick. And claimed that the transposing of an 's' for a 'b' in the name Obama meant the post was unintelligible to you. You also claimed that you were not going to answer my 'dumbass questions'.

I did not ask you a question I merely pointed out that your response to my post did not in any way address what was written. Nor did I apologise. You also apparently don't understand the word dyslexia either. Yes petal the British education system made me dyslexic.

So it would seem to me that your English is pretty poor indeed.

Anyway, I'd rather be a dyslexic who makes a spelling error here and there than a sanctimonious cunt who uses it as a get out clause when he can't counter an argument.

 

[Maz7006]

I do hope you aren't blaming Jews for the state of the world because that is what it looks like!

No , i dn't take sides in such matters

i suppose it was more accurate to say 'religion' than god.

 

[SamAsh07]

World War III in 2012 December. Mayans did predict the end of the world, but not properly, 2012 December marks the day when World War III begins. Buckle up guys this is gonna be one helluva show!

 

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Our troops were sent to Iraq simply because we couldn't refuse sending them - our current buisness relations with the States as far as trade of military equipment is concerned clearly states that we're sort of forced to support whatever stupid idea your government pulls off or the magic faucet of dollars and half-price F-16's plus the technology to produce them will have its valve turned to the shitty side. I'll admit - we stepped in because we had to, much like most of the U.N did. Thing is, we started leaving when we were no longer necessary. Our troops were sent as a peace corp., yours to wage a regular war. There's a tiny difference.
It's true that business relations may have determined a part of the political dynamics between the US and the Polish state; perhaps even a large part. The character of US imperialism is heavy-handed, brutal, and toxic. But the behavior of the Polish military in Iraq isn't the only thing to consider here. The Polish state has done all it can to aid and abet US imperialism on its own soil. This can be seen in the "anti-missile base" deal struck between Foreign Minister Sikorski and Condoleeza Rice in 2008 intended to antagonize Russia during the crisis in Georgia. Furthermore, Sikorski has done all he can to guarantee US presence in Eastern Europe. That the Polish military presence in Iraq was largely of a "peace corps" character does not overshadow the fact that the Polish state, on the record, is largely in support of US interests. That Sikorski can speak of "justice" being done after the slaying of bin Laden is, quite frankly, revealing more than he intends. The Polish state also does not merely bend to US pressure at every juncture; it has its own interests as well. Lech Kaczynski, before his death, never ceased in boasting of Poland's imperialist credentials: "We’ve been in Afghanistan and Iraq. We are and will be present in even greater numbers in Lebanon. Polish soldiers are in Congo, the Golan Heights, and the Balkans. Such is Poland’s policy. It did not start with my term in office. This is a continuation of earlier policies.” There is no indication that Komorowski has been any different in this regard.

I'm not saying that simply being American automatically means that you're the hellspawn and you haven't learned anything since Christian cursades to the east ended and that you still don't grasp the idea that the east is different and cannot be understood through the pink glasses of a western attitude - that'd be a stereotype.
Yet you insist on identifying US imperialism as the will of the people. This is also a noxious stereotype that you seem rather comfortable with. If you wish to escape the implications of holding such a position, the best solution would be to abandon the nationalist rhetoric completely. The US government is not "mine," any more than the Polish state is "yours". They are organs that operate on the whims of the rich and powerful. The modern state serves no other purpose than to moderate the financial affairs of the bourgeoisie.
QUOTE

What I'm saying is that you can't point your finger at the government ALL THE TIME saying "It ain't us, they did it" and feel absolutely 0% responsible - that's also a stereotype, and it's been circulating the states since the Vietnam war. You ARE, to an extent, responsible for your imperialistic government because you CHOOSE the government in open, public elections. YOU give those people the power necessary to make their cock-againts-terrorists-rubbing dreams come true, and you believe in every slightest promise of change they give you instead of reading actual political programmes the parties represent. It's the whole "medialization" of politics, forgive me the term, that's at fault here - the brightest TV spot wins, not the best campaign.

The notion that the masses must share responsibility with the crimes of imperialism is only plausible if it is established that the masses had an informed choice. If this choice was not offered (and it wasn't), it would be difficult to prove their complicity. This argument, unfortunately, has been tried time and time again, most notably by the so-called anti-fascists that insisted on collective German responsibility after the Second World War. It was no less false than it is now to try the same tactic with contemporary politics. The monopoly of German politics, along with Poland and the US is and has been largely in the hands of the capitalist bourgeoisie. The wars and intrigue that are waged at home and abroad are solely in their interests, while at home in the US, jobs and pensions are being cut to the benefit of the Wall Street parasites.

As for "open, public elections" I can only say that the electoral college in the US is incredibly anti-democratic in its form (since it denies a popular vote and its bias toward states with high electoral power), along with the fact that a growing number of people simply refuse to vote at all. I submit the debacle surrounding Florida in 2000 as my primary evidence of this. The Democrats and Republicans win outright by the virtue that they usually have superior funding and business deals with the corporate media. Any opposing parties do not stand a chance. In other words, there is no "we" in this decayed process and its spurious for you to claim otherwise. On the other hand, it is probably true that a large number of Americans simply do not read between the lines--but I would argue that this is part and parcel of a system in which, contrary to your claims, is not under the control of the masses. This is not to speak of the backroom "legal" subterfuge that was used in enacting the PATRIOT Act and the horrors of Guantanamo. I cannot really speak of Poland in this regard, but perhaps you can.

 

[coolness]

sow war is almost over against Al-Qaeda, Now lets wait for the Aliens

 

[SamAsh07]

sow war is almost over against Al-Qaeda, Now lets wait for the Aliens

Aliens eh?

Bwahaha, we'll just show them our Alienware stuff

 

[Foxi4]

It's true that business relations may have determined a part of the political dynamics between the US and the Polish state; perhaps even a large part. The character of US imperialism is heavy-handed, brutal, and toxic. But the behavior of the Polish military in Iraq isn't the only thing to consider here. The Polish state has done all it can to aid and abet US imperialism on its own soil. This can be seen in the "anti-missile base" deal struck between Foreign Minister Sikorski and Condoleeza Rice in 2008 intended to antagonize Russia during the crisis in Georgia. Furthermore, he has done all he can to guarantee US presence in Eastern Europe. That the Polish military presence in Iraq was largely of a "peace corps" character does not overshadow the fact that the Polish state, on the record, is largely in support of US interests. That Sikorski can speak of "justice" being done after the slaying of bin Laden is, quite frankly, revealing more than he intends. The Polish state also does not merely bend to US pressure at every juncture; it has its own interests as well. Lech Kaczynski, before his death, never ceased in boasting of Poland's imperialist credentials: "We’ve been in Afghanistan and Iraq. We are and will be present in even greater numbers in Lebanon. Polish soldiers are in Congo, the Golan Heights, and the Balkans. Such is Poland’s policy. It did not start with my term in office. This is a continuation of earlier policies.” There is no indication that Komorowski has been any different in this regard.

Yet you insist on identifying US imperialism as the will of the people. This is also a noxious stereotype that you seem rather comfortable with. If you wish to escape the implications of holding such a position, the best solution would be to abandon the nationalist rhetoric completely. The US government is not "mine," any more than the Polish state is "yours". They are organs that operate on the whims of the rich and powerful. The modern state serves no other purpose than to moderate the financial affairs of the bourgeoisie.

The notion that the masses must share responsibility with the crimes of imperialism is only plausible if it is established the masses had an informed choice. If this choice was not offered (and it wasn't), it would be difficult to prove their complicity. This argument, unfortunately, has been tried time and time again, most notably by the so-called anti-fascists that insisted on collective German responsibility after the Second World War. It was no less false than it is now to try the same tactic with contemporary politics. The monopoly of German politics, along with Poland and the US is and has been largely in the hands of the capitalist bourgeoisie. The wars and intrigue that are waged at home and abroad are solely in their interests, while at home in the US, jobs and pensions are being cut to the benefit of the Wall Street parasites.

As for "open, public elections" I can only say that the electoral college in the US is incredibly anti-democratic in its form (since it denies a popular vote and its bias toward states with high electoral power), along with the fact that a growing number of people simply refuse to vote at all. I submit the debacle surrounding Florida in 2000 as my primary evidence of this. The Democrats and Republicans win outright by the virtue that they usually have superior funding and business deals with the corporate media. Any opposing parties do not stand a chance. In other words, there is no "we" in this decayed process and its spurious for you to claim otherwise. On the other hand, it is probably true that a large number of Americans simply do not read between the lines--but I would argue that this is part and parcel of a system in which, contrary to your claims, is not under the control of the masses. This is not to speak of the backroom "legal" subterfuge that was used in enacting the PATRIOT Act and the horrors of Guantanamo. I cannot really speak of Poland in this regard, but perhaps you can.

I am pleasantly suprised by this post. I have to agree that Poland is doing anything it can at the moment to brown-nose the U.S, and it's not a recent policy as you previously stated. Your government has our government's support due to the "monetary faucet" I mentioned earlier, but not only that. Being the great Imperium U.S undoubtly is, it's best to be friends with it rather than oppose it. It's a simple calculation, really - potential profits from this kind of relations outweights the losses.

Thing is, Poland participates in wars on a different scale then the U.S. Actually, every single Europen coutry does it differently. France is known to show their Air Superiority fighters - they use opportunities like this to show off their national products. Poland sends our top-notch commando units - never a whole lot of equipment or soldiers, but at the same time, the elite, jack-of-all-trades ones. U.S on the other hand sends pretty much everything at their disposal, ranging from bombers and predator drones to sea support and ranged missles.

The U.S wages war in the most primitive and most expensive way - via Blitzkreig methods. Of course, it shows their immense power, no doubt, but carpet bombing is a rather long-term process that shows its result after a good few years when you're hunting 1 man in an entire country, don't you think?

It is true that Polish Commando's, for example the G.R.O.M unit were seen, or rather "not seen at all, but know to be there" in many major conflicts throughtout the last years, but their role was always specialized and limited - they did their jobs and left.

What the U.S military is doing is trying to enforce democracy on people who reject it like a bad transplant, and this brings me to another point.

You can't inject ideals. You can't force people to become independent or to embrace democracy. They never had contact with it, they don't know how "this" works. Whatever government they'll pick will turn into a regime because that is the system they know and are accustomed with. Until they themselves come to the conclusion that this doesn't work as intended, they will carry on refusing the ideals you're bombing into their skulls.

I know that the imperialism is not the will of the people entirely, but on the other hand, are there any movements that are againts said imperialism and are they taking sufficient actions to educate the masses about the problem? And by that I don't mean protesting.

It's a trend I noticed in a good few countries to have only two major parties - the conservatives and the liberals. Nothing in-between, nothing to support people in "the middle ground" who are liberal in some cases but stay conservatives in the others. This is a division straight from a comic book - in the real world, pure black and pure white doesn't exist, so why even try mimicking such a contrast in politics when it's 100% sure to backfire?

Lech Kaczy?ski knew and understood this problem clearly. He knew that it's best to sit in the soft spot of the "center", even though he was conscidered to lean towards the conservatism too much. I'll give you an example - german communities demanded handing over a number of tenement houses situated in Poland which were the property of german citizens who lived in the area at the time. He replied by sending a thorough and detailed bill for rebuilding Warsaw and added a note that he'll be delighted to hand over German public property as soon as German returns what they "stole".

Perhaps this is a little twisted understanding of justice, but I like what he did there. He was neither liberal, succumbing to the claim because it's just the right thing to do, nor he was a typical conservative who'd say it's mine as long as it stands on my ground. He simply stated a condition to make the claim. An impossible condition at that, but it only shows the sense of humour of our late president. Afterall, we are a nation of "trolls".

But back to the subject, you made an interesting point about Guantanamo Bay. Are you perhaps reffering to the alleged transfers of prisoners performed by the C.I.A to secret prisons on Polish soil where terrorists were detained, screened and interviewed, perhaps even tortured?

 

[SamAsh07]

You wrote all that Foxi4? Wow...I don't even bother typing this much, especially in a topic like this, I hate discussions lol, but I love to read peoples different views and compare by how much margin do they differ from mine.

 

[coolness]

sow war is almost over against Al-Qaeda, Now lets wait for the Aliens

Aliens eh?

Bwahaha, we'll just show them our Alienware stuff

lol the movie 'Battle: Los Angeles' the same is gonne happen here 100% sure

 

[SamAsh07]

sow war is almost over against Al-Qaeda, Now lets wait for the Aliens

Aliens eh?

Bwahaha, we'll just show them our Alienware stuff

lol the movie 'Battle: Los Angeles' the same is gonne happen here 100% sure

LOL! I sure hope so

 

[coolness]

sow war is almost over against Al-Qaeda, Now lets wait for the Aliens

Aliens eh?

Bwahaha, we'll just show them our Alienware stuff

lol the movie 'Battle: Los Angeles' the same is gonne happen here 100% sure

LOL! I sure hope so

it while be cool to see this inreal

 

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Foxi4, this is a long post, so spoiler tags are necessary.

Spoiler

<!--quoteo(post=3629924:date=May 6 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ May 6 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3629924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am pleasantly suprised by this post. I have to agree that Poland is doing anything it can at the moment to brown-nose the U.S, and it's not a recent policy as you previously stated. Your government has our government's support due to the "monetary faucet" I mentioned earlier, but not only that. Being the great Imperium U.S undoubtly is, it's best to be friends with it rather than oppose it. It's a simple calculation, really - potential profits from this kind of relations outweights the losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The immediate interests of the Polish state would probably be self-preservation, so I would agree it would be a mistake on their part to antagonize the US state. On the other hand, these "potential profits" come at a heavy price for the Polish masses. They do not, in fact, see these profits at all. The exponential growth of the financial crisis has "forced" them to seek redress the only means that they know how: To give greater incentives to privatization of formerly state-owned (or partially state-owned) industries. The character of these state sell-offs could be called "frenzied". Off the top of my head, I can name Poland's selling of most of its shares of the KGHM mining industry, along with its 4% stake in GE's bank BPH. As of now, the American-based company (GE money, which acquired the merger between bank BPH and GE, is based in London) owns at least two-thirds of "voting rights" of a so-called "Polish" institution. This also was warmly approved by the Polish Financial Supervision Authority (KNF). In my opinion, this is a confirmation of what I have said before; the Polish state, as is customary in capitalist nation-states, serves only as the committee to manage the financial affairs of the bourgeoisie. My point in noting this is that the Polish state has sought to ameliorate big business interests by selling all but their very souls. By selling off state assets, they are not merely bending to American interests. They are bending to the private interests of the capitalist class. This is the price of "brown-nosing", and only the Polish masses will be made to pay.
<!--quoteo(post=3629924:date=May 6 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ May 6 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3629924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thing is, Poland participates in wars on a different scale then the U.S. Actually, every single Europen coutry does it differently. France is known to show their Air Superiority fighters - they use opportunities like this to show off their national products. Poland sends our top-notch commando units - never a whole lot of equipment or soldiers, but at the same time, the elite, jack-of-all-trades ones. U.S on the other hand sends pretty much everything at their disposal, ranging from bombers and predator drones to sea support and ranged missles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that European countries may indeed conduct their military affairs differently than that of the US. Showing off national weaponry is only the most obvious way for various nation-states to measure their military "egos". I would argue that despite their apparent differences, they are still beholden to imperialism. France is probably the best example of exposing such European "pretensions" in how they conduct their affairs. On the one hand, France tries to portray themselves as a boon to atheism by banning burqas and other Islamic clothing. They pride themselves on the fact that they have refused to send their soldiers to Iraq. On the other they stigmatize the Muslims in the eyes of the state, even as they continue to plunder Afghanistan and support the plunder of Iraq, even if they will not directly send their troops there. Wikileaks cables have directly confirmed the complicity of the French state in US policy, along with numerous other tidbits-- how they wish that their support of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda would be forgotten, among others. In other words: Imperialism is imperialism. The US state is a major agitator in its foreign policy, but the greed of the capitalist bourgeoisie of the numerous nation-states is the true cause, at its root.
<!--quoteo(post=3629924:date=May 6 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ May 6 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3629924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The U.S wages war in the most primitive and most expensive way - via Blitzkreig methods. Of course, it shows their immense power, no doubt, but carpet bombing is a rather long-term process that shows its result after a good few years when you're hunting 1 man in an entire country, don't you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true that the record of US aggression in the Middle East has a similar ring to that of the campaigns waged by Nazi Germany. The carpet-bombings certainly evoke analogies to the "Blitzkrieg" tactics. But this is assuming that the US government had only ever wanted bin Laden's head on a pike. The looting of their oil reserves and their other natural resources were the main instigators in US aggression in Iraq. There is a certain logic to be found when it came to light that their marketing of Hussein's complicity with Al Qaeda and its "weapons capabilities" turned out to be salient lies. The "primitive" nature of their operations was not in a vacuum.
<!--quoteo(post=3629924:date=May 6 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ May 6 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3629924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is true that Polish Commando's, for example the G.R.O.M unit were seen, or rather "not seen at all, but know to be there" in many major conflicts throughtout the last years, but their role was always specialized and limited - they did their jobs and left.

What the U.S military is doing is trying to enforce democracy on people who reject it like a bad transplant, and this brings me to another point.

You can't inject ideals. You can't force people to become independent or to embrace democracy. They never had contact with it, they don't know how "this" works. Whatever government they'll pick will turn into a regime because that is the system they know and are accustomed with. Until they themselves come to the conclusion that this doesn't work as intended, they will carry on refusing the ideals you're bombing into their skulls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that the US military is doing its utmost to impose its "democracy" on these foreign masses. But as I have already proved, US imperialism is not a recent or singular phenomenon. They have been helping, and have been helped, by the European capitalist countries in its drive to privatize every resource on the planet. The Polish state and its cohorts are equally applicable to this fact. Their "level" of participation, in my opinion, is not very significant.
<!--quoteo(post=3629924:date=May 6 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ May 6 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3629924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know that the imperialism is not the will of the people entirely, but on the other hand, are there any movements that are againts said imperialism and are they taking sufficient actions to educate the masses about the problem? And by that I don't mean protesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bourgeois parties? Not any that I know of. There are socialist parties that pop up here and there, but I would be hard-pressed to name any genuine Marxist party that consistently agitates against the bourgeoisie or educates the proletariat or the masses; this means that currently one does not exist. This is not to say that there aren't parties that are genuinely motivated to stop imperialism, but most that I know of are blinkered and fettered by the restraints of liberalism and pragmatism. The SEP (Socialist Equality Party), for instance, represented a genuine Trotskyist movement against capitalism at one time. But now they restrict themselves to publishing articles online and do not even try to intervene in the unions. The zeitgeist of the bourgeoisie discourages political parties based on the masses, and there hasn't been any significant opposition except for the Egyptian revolts that are now being quelled by the state military.
<!--quoteo(post=3629924:date=May 6 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ May 6 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3629924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a trend I noticed in a good few countries to have only two major parties - the conservatives and the liberals. Nothing in-between, nothing to support people in "the middle ground" who are liberal in some cases but stay conservatives in the others. This is a division straight from a comic book - in the real world, pure black and pure white doesn't exist, so why even try mimicking such a contrast in politics when it's 100% sure to backfire?

Lech Kaczyński knew and understood this problem clearly. He knew that it's best to sit in the soft spot of the "center", even though he was conscidered to lean towards the conservatism too much. I'll give you an example - german communities demanded handing over a number of tenement houses situated in Poland which were the property of german citizens who lived in the area at the time. He replied by sending a thorough and detailed bill for rebuilding Warsaw and added a note that he'll be delighted to hand over German public property as soon as German returns what they "stole".

Perhaps this is a little twisted understanding of justice, but I like what he did there. He was neither liberal, succumbing to the claim because it's just the right thing to do, nor he was a typical conservative who'd say it's mine as long as it stands on my ground. He simply stated a condition to make the claim. An impossible condition at that, but it only shows the sense of humour of our late president. Afterall, we are a nation of "trolls".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know much about this incident, so there is little that I can say.
<!--quoteo(post=3629924:date=May 6 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ May 6 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3629924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But back to the subject, you made an interesting point about Guantanamo Bay. Are you perhaps reffering to the alleged transfers of prisoners performed by the C.I.A to secret prisons on Polish soil where terrorists were detained, screened and interviewed, perhaps even tortured?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At this point, I think it's safe to say that these "alleged" transfers and tortures are actually fact. The CIA confirmed last March that the Polish "black site" in question actually exists, though they deny their use of "enhanced interrogation techniques". Wikileaks has revealed that Australia, among other countries contributed to these horrific processes. These documents also reveal that it is highly possible that most of the Guantanamo prisoners are not actually guilty of anything other than being incredibly unlucky. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Polish state participated in the extra-legal depravity.

 

[Foxi4]

You're painting a rather grim picture, Mega. It's obvious that the UN doesn't get their jollies simply from "fixing what ain't broken" in developing countries - it's always been about resource control and that much is clear.


WARNING! Off-topic follows in... 3... 2... 1...

Spoiler

What makes me look optimistically into the future, perhaps 20-30 years into it, is the fact that recent geological discoveries show that we're sitting on gas reserves that'll supply us with enough gas to turn into a lightbulb for 400 years, which will inevitably cut a good few ties that we still have with Russia, of which I'm not really fond of.

As far as the Polish state assets policy is concerned, we're generally welcoming outside investors and urging them to come to our country and we gladly sell our state companies to them, even if it's for piss-poor money.

The idea behind it is that "we won't have to worry about them". The Polish Treasury is in deep debt, which has its roots back in the days of early democracy by Walesa's rule. We took many credits, alot of them in the U.S, to re-build and re-furbish our industry after the USSR fiasco. Now the outdated facilities like coal mines, smelting works etc. which are no longer capable of proper quality production are simply standing there and looking majestically while they're not put in good use.

The stock of those companies are in the hands of bankers, which desperately try to make profit out of non-working industrial bodies. Here comes the Investor role. The government offers said spots for stupidly small prices under one condition - production will be re-established and proper technology will be introduced to be on-par with the west. Call this tickling the rich the right way, but bare with me for now.

These tactics, although not always welcome by the society, proved to be working pretty well, seeing that Poland is one of the most quickly developing countries in the area, and for that we can only thank our interior policies division.

That said, we are still in the shadows of a post-communism country, and much time shall pass before we will be able to kick-start our own industry properly. For now, we have to rely on outside investors, which isn't all that bad, conscidering that re-furbed facilities need operators, and said operators are already there and already trained, since they mostly worked in said facilities before they were locked down or downsized.

 

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

You're painting a rather grim picture, Mega. It's obvious that the UN doesn't get their jollies simply from "fixing what ain't broken" in developing countries - it's always been about resource control and that much is clear.

What makes me look optimistically into the future, perhaps 20-30 years into it, is the fact that recent geological discoveries show that we're sitting on gas reserves that'll supply us with enough gas to turn into a lightbulb for 400 years, which will inevitably cut a good few ties that we still have with Russia, of which I'm not really fond of.

As far as the Polish state assets policy is concerned, we're generally welcoming outside investors and urging them to come to our country and we gladly sell our state companies to them, even if it's for piss-poor money.

The idea behind it is that "we won't have to worry about them". The Polish Treasury is in deep debt, which has its roots back in the days of early democracy by Walesa's rule. We took many credits, alot of them in the U.S, to re-build and re-furbish our industry after the USSR fiasco. Now the outdated facilities like coal mines, smelting works etc. which are no longer capable of proper quality production are simply standing there and looking majestically while they're not put in good use.

The stock of those companies are in the hands of bankers, which desperadly try to make profit out of non-working industrial bodies. Here comes the Investor role. The government offers said spots for stupidly small prices under one condition - production will be re-established and proper technology will be introduced to be on-par with the west. Call this tickling the rich the right way, but bare with me for now.

These tactics, although not always welcome by the society, proved to be working pretty well, seeing that Poland is one of the most quickly developing countries in the area, and for that we can only thank our interior policies division.

That said, we are still in the shadows of a post-communism country, and much time shall pass before we will be able to kick-start our own industry properly. For now, we have to rely on outside investors, which isn't all that bad, conscidering that re-furbed facilities need operators, and said operators are already there and already trained, since they mostly worked in said facilities before they were locked down or downsized.

If you truly believe that bringing in outside investors is really best for Poland, in spite of the historical record of such developments, than there's really not much more for me to say. The more the Polish state hands its assets over to foreign private investors, the more that the Polish masses will feel their nooses tighten. It is not that I oppose the development of Poland or its industries. However, it will only impoverish the Polish proletariat in the long run and set the stage for more acts of aggression. When Poland finishes its stage of "development", the national economy will be put at the mercy of these same private investors. Simply put, the salvation of Poland and its people is impossible under capitalism. I also did not mean to paint such a "grim" picture. Unfortunately, what I described is objectively happening and mere optimism will not pay off if these sell-outs to imperialism and private investment continue. I could say more about the collapse of the USSR in this regard, but it would only serve to derail the thread, and I don't have the energy to do it right now.