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  1. Legendaykai

    Legendaykai Advanced Member
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    personally i'd give up and not use custom firmware now sincenintendo is being more heavy handed on piracy.
     
  2. mspy

    mspy GBAtemp Regular
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    ... and it's backed up by law! imagine that!
     
  3. hippy dave

    hippy dave BBMB
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    It's the same group, and they reused code from Gateway for SX OS like the virtual machine that runs to obfuscate their copy protection. Open sourcing it would prevent them from being able to use it again on whatever console comes next.
     
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  4. Elliander

    Elliander GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    That's correct. For example, I recently purchased a modified Xbox 360 - not to play pirated games, but because I want to do what I could never do before: Get my own games onto a console. Back when I was a registered XNA developer (years before I was into the modding scene) I wanted to test my own game, but learned that the only way to do this was to publish the game first. It was a bit of a chicken and the egg situation and I ultimately decided never to publish a game. It was nothing amazing, just an Indie arcade style game, but it's something I made and I didn't want to publish it for others to play until I felt it was the best it could be. With a modded console I can run unsigned code. Since I long since lost the source files I have to recreate the game (they were on an old hard drive I can't find and backed up in hotmail which apparently got wiped due to inactivity), but it's amazing that I actually can. If the people behind it made it impossible to run game backups because they were overly concerned with piracy I would never have this chance.

    Yes, the ability to run unsigned code means one can pirate a game, but it ALSO means that one can run their own software to do what they want with it and that is completely legal.

    This is more than just my opinion. Once upon a time Electronic Arts wanted to negotate a deal to put their games on the Sega Genesis, but Sega's offered was unworkable for them. They decided to reverse engineer the console to run their own code. They then went to Sega and basically said, "If you don't work with us, we'll release our own license program and compete with you on your own console" and that is a completely legal to do. So, Sega backed off and gave EA the deal they wanted.

    The same type of logic was used by the courts in ruling in favor of Connectix against Sony, but in that case it was running software licensed by Sony on hardware not authorized by Sony.

    If it was illegal to run your own code on a console, Microsoft would never have been able to take control of the modern PC market from IBM, who created the PC platform to begin with.

    Of course, a copyright infringement argument can be made with regards to using code within the switch operating system, but Nintendo isn't even innocent of such things. Take for example the fact that Nintendo used scene dumps on it's virtual console. Yes, it owned games, but they didn't have a commercial license to the emulation software whose code they used to run these games - which, for commercial games, was required - and we know this is the case because Nintendo didn't even bother to remove the headers from the games.

    There are also ways of running unsigned code without use of that OS. For example, the Nintendo Switch is a glorified smartphone capable of running Android and Android is open source. If one were to hypothetically create an Android based OS designed specifically to run Switch games from carts and operate it's own Android store - to literally compete with Nintendo on it's own platform - that would be totally legal. Even if that software ALSO allowed games to be dumped and run from file, as was established in court in the case of Sony vs Connectix. (remember, Bleem! could also run Playstation games from ISO file, but the courts did not agree with Sony that this was a bad thing)

    Ahh, that's interesting and a good point. In that case though I wouldn't it have been in their own best business interest - long term - to release a final update? Or, alternatively, to have basically said, "Look, we can't afford to release updates for this console anymore, but if we can raise X dollars we'll release a final version" and then people can just crowd fund the development? I mean, how much do you think it would cost to PAY THEM for a final update for those of us who still have a Gateway device? Even if there are alternatives now, to each their own, right?
     
    Last edited by Elliander, Jan 30, 2021
  5. Daydex

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    You can say that again. After 2 years with using a basic firmware. I can honestly say, SX OS is rubbish. Atmo is superior in many ways. I've instantly come to like the fact I can pretty much be sure that Atmo will be fully supporting up and coming FW. Even if Nintendo decides to makes things even more complex.
     
  6. bostonBC

    bostonBC GBAtemp Maniac
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    About to switch to Atm as SXOS support for 11.x is abysmal.

    If only Tinfoil allowed launching of XCI's it would be perfect.
     
  7. Daydex

    Daydex Member
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    You can convert your XCI backups to NSP within less than an few minutes. You just need to extract your keys.
     
  8. wurstpistole

    wurstpistole GBAtemp MVP
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    Completely unnecessary. You can just install the XCIs with Tinfoil and be done with it.
     
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  9. Daydex

    Daydex Member
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    My bad, I forgot about that.
     
  10. Elliander

    Elliander GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Well, it's not looking good at the moment.

    Nintendo was able to successfully block their domains in some countries recently and, I don't know about others in America, but at the moment none of their domains works for me as of today. (I check daily, because if an update is ever pushed I'd likely have a very small window with which to get everything updated and synchronized before Nintendo pushes another update). It's not the first time over the past few weeks that they've gone down though so I guess we'll see over the next few weeks. Even if they don't intend to abandon the project they may be forced to.

    Regardless of how it turns out, I take issue with people in the media calling it an illegal device. Just because Nintendo repeats the term "illegal" doesn't mean something is.

    My guess though is that Nintendo is doing this in large part because it's "unhackable" models were hardware patched - which, again, is not illegal since such a thing would even be neccessary for those replacing the Switch firmware with Android to simply run Android apps like PS4 Remote Play and the like. If Nintendo really does have a Switch Pro around the corner, it probably sees this move as a neccessary move either to prevent them from hacking what comes next or because they believe these hard mods would work on the Switch Pro and it's too late in production to do anything about it on their end and/or far more expensive to deal with than simply going after them. And if that is the case this really has nothing to do with Nintendo trying to stop piracy and everything to do with Piracy trying to stop modding in it's entirety - and that includes Atmosphere and any other project that may want to use the Switch hardware for anything at all. So we should really hope that they find a way around this.
     
  11. Rahkeesh

    Rahkeesh GBAtemp Advanced Maniac
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    Its the FBI and maybe Tencent/CCP that have dealt this death blow. Nintendo's always been pushing to shut down all homebrew with every tool they have, they did address Fusee after all. It's just that it has to rise to piracy to start to make governments care, and claims of counterfeit hardware that get them to actually move. Nintendo surely hate Atmosphere too for making any of this possible, they just have a harder time doing anything about it because of the plausible deniability WRT piracy and lack of money trail.
     
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  12. Elliander

    Elliander GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    That's true. If they said the truth, "We are taking action today because they are selling hardware that will allow end users to install whatever software they like on the hardware they physically own" it wouldn't have the same effect especially since the courts recently released a "right to repair" order. As it stands, they cannot legally void your warranty just because you open the console to make repairs UNLESS they offered repair service that's either free or cheaper than $10

    Of course, the fact that Nintendo was incapable of releasing a virtual console without using scene dumps means that even piracy has helped them. I think that if there was some central organization that was responsible for the collection of creative works - be it games, movies, music, etc - to be stored to release if and when the copyrights expire or to be drawn on by copyright holders if ever needed the movement for game preservation would be much weaker.
     
  13. CompSciOrBust

    CompSciOrBust GBAtemp Fan
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    Nintendo can detect Atmosphere but chooses not to ban people who use it unless they pirate games or install NSPs, you can even use SXOS online as long as you don't pirate anything. I've heard of people playing XCIs online, as long as it is unmodified and has a valid cert (not banned) they don't seem to care. That said I still wouldn't advise using CFW online, and I don't personally. Afaik no one even got banned for the old old 3.0.0 hbl which had no mitigation against sending error reports to Nintendo. As for the governments, yeah they will crack down on piracy if pressured to. What's funny is that Nintendo tried and failed to sue Max Louarn (owner of Team-Xecuter) in France over the original DS flash carts because the courts said they were used by consumers who just wanted to run their own apps.
     
  14. Elliander

    Elliander GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Something I'd like to know is: What happens if Team Xecutor does go under?

    I have 4 original Switch consoles, all of which can be modded. I know that my two unused and sealed SX Pro Dongles will never work on the 2 that were never modded because it's license could never be activated, but I'd be able to install other CFW onto them and I could still use the dongles.

    The bigger issue is about what happens to the people that could never get their hands on an original Switch or the hardware to mod newer Switches. What happens if we do get a Switch Pro, and only those lucky few who got that hardware could ever run CFW on it? (I've really been hoping to see a Switch 3DS with hard mods to let me port all my 3DS and Switch games over to it)

    I think it has less to do with the fact that they don't care and more to do with the fact that there are limits to their detection ability. For example, I was ALWAYS able to play 3DS backups on my Gateway 3DS online without ever being banned because I had a valid header (at least until they stopped supporting it) and I was even able to purchase DLC for games on the eShop from within a Gateway emuNAND and never got banned for that either, but even if I just injected a header from a different game I never would have been banned UNLESS that header was used by someone else at the exact same time and only if they are both online (which I took issue with because it means that if someone sold that cart to an unsuspecting buyer their game would be banned). Blank headers always got people banned because it was easy to detect.

    With the Nintendo Switch, each game has it's own unique header so injecting from another game wasn't an option, but as long as you used the original header and as long as the header wasn't used by someone else online Nintendo couldn't tell the difference between an XCI and a real game cart. (Not that I would take that risk) They'd instead look to see if any homebrew was installed, or if there was a difference in the logs somewhere.

    If, for example, you made a NAND backup, took your Switch online, then restored the NAND backup after and went online you'd be banned even though you didn't pirate anything because there was a detectable difference.

    Nintendo never implemented a check in LAN mode to determine if the same header was used by the other game, but then, if they did that it might actually be possible to clone other people's headers online for piracy.

    Now, that is interesting. Especially since people - at present - use the hard mods made by Team Xecutor to be able to install Android and Android apps. I bet if they had it bundled with Android by default, which had to be manually set to use SXOS, they'd have an easier time defending themselves in court. Even now that could give them a viable defense under the argument that just because someone CAN use their hardware for piracy doesn't mean that it's the primary use or that they are responsible for how others use their hardware. If they further make the argument that their hardware is the only way people can currently install apps that Nintendo doesn't own they could invoke court precedents in the US to call themselves a legitimate competitor.

    _______________

    EDIT: Looks like their domains are back up (In America). Sadly, no update yet. I wonder if this means they actually work on their website when it goes down? It would be a good sign if so.
     
    Last edited by Elliander, Feb 1, 2021
  15. CompSciOrBust

    CompSciOrBust GBAtemp Fan
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    Nintendo can detect CFW, SciresM went in to detail about it during one of his reverse engineering streams. I don't think French precedents would help in the US because they did successfully sue Max elsewhere but just failed in France. As for arguing that the intended use of SX hardware is to enable user software, I think that point is moot because TX straight up embeded keys in SXOS. Sure the intention might be to enable user software but that doesn't change the fact that they included illegal numbers. I mostly brought up the law suit in France as a fun bit of trivia that I think a lot of people won't know since surprisingly few people knew that Max was behind TX despite is being public at least as far back as 2016. One possible argument that they might be able to use is that they didn't know their devs were embeding keys since based on what little I know about TX their development teams are quite isolated, but I don't know if that would hold up in court. Here's a source on the France suit if you want it: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/nintendo-to-appeal-not-guilty-judgement-of-flash-cart-sellers

    As for the sites, they keep failing and then coming back to life shortly after. There's probably people behind the scenes managing it, SXOS and the SX Gear software was updated by someone after all. To quote @nickmoses05 they're not called One Xecuter, they're not called Two Xecuter, they're called Team Xecuter.
     
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  16. LucioDragon

    LucioDragon GBAtemp Regular
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    So now the only way i can play my backups is using atmosphere? no sign of sx os to give an update?
     
  17. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    TX's future is uncertain due to their legal issues, and they haven't issued an update for 11.0.1 (a very minor update) in quite a long time. It is recommended that you at least explore migrating to Atmosphere at this point.
     
  18. godreborn

    godreborn GBAtemp Legend
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    on the latest firmware, I believe so. I don't think atmosphere was deterred by the arrests, but once Nintendo started interfering with their money by suing resellers, that's when things got serious.
     
  19. LucioDragon

    LucioDragon GBAtemp Regular
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    lucky me i have a sx pro dongle, so i have a way to move to atmosphere with more ease
     
  20. JoeBloggs777

    JoeBloggs777 GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    TX will rise from the ashes or someone else will take their place, they have a working product and looking at todays figures from Nitendos with Switch sales of 80 million, that's what near 60 million patched units out there, that's a big market and a lot of money to be made.
     
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