Sony releases new PS5 revision with smaller heatsink

TonyMax · Sep 22, 2021

Holding out for a slim!

D34DL1N3R · Sep 22, 2021

Now what about the fan noise? Have they stopped the fan lottery yet, or no? I don't care about the heatsink, I want to know if they are done giving some people a complete shit fan or not. Went through several PS5s and sold them all due to every, single, one having the Nidec warbly fan noise. It was so loud I could hear it 8 feet away on my sofa during gaming and movies. One of them I even sent back to Sony who sent me a completely new PS5... with the exact same fan model. Told myself I'll not buy another until they're done with the lame ass fan lotto. I don't pay $500+ to get an inferior model, when others pay the same and get a perfectly working and quiet fan.

Foxi4 · Sep 22, 2021

r5xscn said:
I just noted that the fans are the exact same model. I agree with your comment to some degree. But the point here is that they are testing the whlle system and not just the heatsink. If the heatsink is smaller but the pcb is better then there should be no issue for users. Of course silicon lottery still applies. But I am not going to nitpick on small details like that because those are still within the manufacturing variances. As Aris said the sample size is too small to draw any useful conclusion.

In my opinion, both tests are flawed because of the sample size. Additionally, GN said their original model might not be representative because they reapplied the liquid metal.

I am not really sure regarding testing on different ambient temperatures, but if Aris can't nail the exact ambient temperatures for both systems, then I doubt GN can. Aris is a well known PSU reviewer and testing PSU in hot and cold condition is a basic thing for a PSU test.

If you want more data, you might also want to add Igor's review.

In summary, they are testing the systems and not just the heatsinks. Sample size needs to be bigger.

Well, if you want to compare thermal solution A to thermal solution B, you have to compare them on the same bench setup, otherwise you’re getting the difference between the two system revisions (as you say) and not the difference between the heat sinks themselves. Sample size of 1 is definitely not great, but you could draw some conclusions from it in terms of design - if you don’t control for all the rest of the hardware then you’re not really measuring the difference you’re looking for, which in this case was exclusively the heat sink (since there are no SOC changes or mobo changes). What may vary from board to board is the source fab for all the other components, the fan, the PSU and manufacturing tolerance. On the other points you’re correct. I personally wouldn’t accept a PC heat sink comparison that runs the heat sinks on two identical test benches because the tester can’t guarantee that both behave exactly the same - I don’t see a reason to apply different logic here. To me it has to be the same machine in order to be valid, but different strokes for different folks. If we’re just comparing whole system revisions then they will all behave differently out of the box, within a given margin.

D34DL1N3R said:
Now what about the fan noise? Have they stopped the fan lottery yet, or no? I don't care about the heatsink, I want to know if they are done giving some people a complete shit fan or not. Went through several PS5s and sold them all due to every, single, one having the Nidec warbly fan noise. It was so loud I could hear it 8 feet away on my sofa during gaming and movies. One of them I even sent back to Sony who sent me a completely new PS5... with the exact same fan model. Told myself I'll not buy another until they're done with the lame ass fan lotto. I don't pay $500+ to get an inferior model, when others pay the same and get a perfectly working and quiet fan.

Fan lottery still applies and will always apply, much like it was the case with the PS3 and PS4. Sony has sourced fans from both Nidec and Delta for quite some time and they install them depending on stock availability rather than by design. In all fairness, the PS5 fans I’ve seen so far were all whisper quiet - it’s the disc drives that are loud as all heck, but those barely get used after the game is fully installed on the SSD. There was a brief issue with Sony placing a sticker that was interfering with the fan blades causing some noise, but that’s been resolved to my knowledge and was fixable without disassembly anyway. As it stands, both the Delta and the Nidec fans are comparable in terms of noise, whichever of the three versions you get should be nice and quiet. You must’ve had terrible luck with yours, that’s really surprising.

AlexMCS · Sep 22, 2021

linuxares said:
oh god no.... you think that company would be able to do a water cooling?

Not really, no. Not by themselves.
But I do hope they create a design where ewe can replace their cooling for a WC one.

Kioku · Sep 22, 2021

AlexMCS said:
Not really, no. Not by themselves.
But I do hope they create a design where ewe can replace their cooling for a WC one.

You're asking too much.

linuxares · Sep 22, 2021

AlexMCS said:
Not really, no. Not by themselves.
But I do hope they create a design where ewe can replace their cooling for a WC one.

I rather they went to Noctua and said "Hey bois! Make it beige and brown. And put in your cooling solutions!"

Foxi4 · Sep 22, 2021

AlexMCS said:
Not really, no. Not by themselves.
But I do hope they create a design where ewe can replace their cooling for a WC one.

My only question here is “why”? Water cooling, even with an AIO, is perishable due to permeation and corrosion. An AIO’s performance *will* degrade over time, whether it is used or not used, and eventually it will not be fit for purpose. Most users think the level of liquid in a closed loop is permanent, but it’s most definitely not. The *only* reason to use water cooling at all is to divert the heat from a spot where you don’t have room for a fin array with a large surface area to a spot where you do - it doesn’t actually improve cooling, and can in fact reduce your cooling capacity. You’re introducing a lot of failure points for effectively zero gain - once the liquid in the loop reaches equilibrium (which will happen really fast) you’re once again dealing with normal convection - forced airflow over fins, just in a different location. Heat pipes are orders of magnitude faster at transferring heat than a liquid loop is, the function of both is heat displacement, not heat exchange. If you want better heat exchange, you need more surface area, which you can easily achieve by just adding more fins or more airflow.

The reason why water cooling is used in the enthusiast community is not because it cools better - it’s because it allows you to divert the heat away from the heat source. You physically can’t put a hunk of metal the size of a 360 rad with 3 fans on directly onto your CPU, but you sure can lead a hose to one of those and back. You don’t have that problem on console - you can design any heat pipe and fin arrangement you want, you don’t have space constraints - you’re the one designing the case, the mobo and the heat sink.

AlexMCS · Sep 22, 2021

Foxi4 said:
My only question here is “why”? Water cooling, even with an AIO, is a perishable due to permeation and corrosion. An AIO’s performance *will* degrade over time, whether it is used or not used, and eventually it will not be fit for purpose. Most users think the level of liquid in a closed loop is permanent, but it’s most definitely not. The *only* reason to use water cooling at all is to divert the heat from a spot where you don’t have room for a fin array with a large surface area to an area where you do - it doesn’t actually improve cooling, and can in fact reduce your cooling capacity. You’re introducing a lot of failure points for effectively zero gain - once the liquid in the loop reaches equilibrium (which will happen really fast) you’re once again dealing with normal convection - forced airflow over fins, just in a different location. Heat pipes are orders of magnitude faster at transferring heat than a liquid loop is.

From experience, over here, every liquid cooling solution is better than alternatives.
And yes, the corrosion is real too, but I see gains of up to 20ºC reduction just by swapping from an expensive air cooler to a cheap water cooler, whether it is for the CPU or GPU.
I don't really know "why" it works that well over here, only that it does.

Maybe it won't be as effective on a system designed with heat dissipation in mind, like the PS5, but it works true wonders on every PC I've made the switch. So yeah, I might be asking for something stupid after all.

Foxi4 · Sep 22, 2021

AlexMCS said:
From experience, over here, every liquid cooling solution is better than alternatives.
And yes, the corrosion is real too, but I see gains of up to 20ºC reduction just by swapping from an expensive air cooler to a cheap water cooler, whether it is for the CPU or GPU.
I don't really know "why" it works that well over here, only that it does.

Maybe it won't be as effective on a system designed with heat dissipation in mind, like the PS5, but it works true wonders on every PC I've made the switch. So yeah, I might be asking for something stupid after all.

It absolutely is not if you compare like to like. The average heat sink is the size of a 120mm rad - if you compare it to a 240-360 rad with a multiple fans then yes, you will have a better result, but only because you have more surface area and more airflow to work with. See video above - it’s not magic, it’s physics. The liquid doesn’t do anything besides taking the heat from the component and moving it elsewhere where it can be dissipated into the air. A high end cooler will match an AIO of a larger size or even beat one that’s similarly sized.

Not to look too far for examples, the Noctua NH-D15 will destroy any 120mm AIO and will match or exceed most 240mm AIO’s without breaking much of a sweat. Heat pipes displace heat faster than a pump, and there’s plenty of them on the D15.

You can get the *illusion* of lower temps because of the liquid’s thermal capacity. That’s momentary - once the system reaches equilibrium, it’s all about how much surface you have and how fast you can move heat to it. This is why in testing you must necessarily run the test for at least a good 15-30 minutes before taking any measurements - after the liquid saturates. Before that point you’re just heating up the liquid, it has no bearing on how much heat you’re exchanging.

AlexMCS · Sep 22, 2021

Let me give you a practical example:

I've swapped a Cooler Master MasterAir MA624 for a Corsair H45 on an i7-2600K CPU without overcloking, and gained ~25ºC reduction in max and current temps a few years ago.

P.S.: Currently, I'm suffering on a laptop with an i7-6700HQ CPU, underclocked @ 2.2GHz that runs @ 70ºC with the CPU pretty much idle after swapping the thermal paste for an Arctic Silver 5 - it was even worse before.

Any tips about it appreciated via PM.

D34DL1N3R · Sep 22, 2021

Foxi4 said:
As it stands, both the Delta and the Nidec fans are comparable in terms of noise, whichever of the three versions you get should be nice and quiet. You must’ve had terrible luck with yours, that’s really surprising.

That is absolutely not accurate whatsoever. There are posts and videos all over the place about the Nidec fan sound. People are even ordering different model fan replacementsfor their PS5 because the warbling/chirping/fluttery/ufo sound is so loud from their Nidec.

PS. Linus TT is kind of a moron. Mostly pretends to be a lot smarter than he is. He's also the annoying tech equivalent of the childrens show character Blippie. LOL!

Foxi4 · Sep 22, 2021

D34DL1N3R said:
That is absolutely not accurate whatsoever. There are posts and videos all over the place about the Nidec fan sound. People are even ordering different model fan replacementsfor their PS5 because the warbling/chirping/fluttery/ufo sound is so loud from their Nidec.

As I said, this comes from personal experience and multiple PS5’s, so your mileage may vary. From the more “scientific” comparisons I’ve seen I couldn’t discern any noticeable difference, the source of noise was usually another component. There was a run with pretty bad coil whine, I’ve seen the fan sticker problem a couple of times and the disc drive is definitely a big one, but I’m sceptical about the Nidec “UFO” as I haven’t observed it or seen it replicated. Either way, the fan lottery is definitely not going away, but if it is a widespread issue as you say then perhaps Nidec has some redesigning to do in one of their SKU’s (pretty sure they have two different models).

Not going to comment much on Linus’ personality, but what I’m saying in regards to heat sinks is common knowledge. All water cooling gives you is a buffer (heating up water takes a lot of energy) and a method of displacing heat. It doesn’t actually improve heat exchange in any way - only surface area and airflow can do that.

D34DL1N3R · Sep 22, 2021

Foxi4 said:
As I said, this comes from personal experience and multiple PS5’s, so your mileage may vary. From the more “scientific” comparisons I’ve seen I couldn’t discern any noticeable difference, the source of noise was usually another component. There was a run with pretty bad coil whine, I’ve seen the fan sticker problem a couple of times and the disc drive is definitely a big one, but I’m sceptical about the Nidec “UFO” as I haven’t observed it or seen it replicated. Either way, the fan lottery is definitely not going away, but if it is a widespread issue as you say then perhaps Nidec has some redesigning to do in one of their SKU’s (pretty sure they have two different models).

Not going to comment much on Linus’ personality, but what I’m saying in regards to heat sinks is common knowledge. All water cooling gives you is a buffer (heating up water takes a lot of energy) and a method of displacing heat. It doesn’t actually improve heat exchange in any way - only surface area and airflow can do that.

I wasn't ever in disagreement with you regarding heat sinks. I was just commenting on Linuses personality, He certainly knows more than the average person, but he's not quite as intelligent as he's made out to be in a lot of instances where I've watched him. I've been like... ummmm. WHAT?!?! On several occasions.

Foxi4 · Sep 22, 2021

D34DL1N3R said:
I wasn't ever in disagreement with you regarding heat sinks. I was just commenting on Linuses personality, He certainly knows more than the average person, but he's not quite as intelligent as he's made out to be in a lot of instances where I've watched him. I've been like... ummmm. WHAT?!?! On several occasions.

He’s admittedly a bit of a goof and I don’t take his word on tech as gospel, but he offers a unique perspective compared to most reviewers as a former NCIX product manager. He’s the guy to ask about failure rates since he has experience in looking at a product more broadly - not as a singular unit, but rather as a large deployment. People like that tend to know what “works” and what doesn’t since they’re the ones who look at DOA numbers.

K3Nv2 · Sep 22, 2021

linuxares said:
TLDR; Just get which ever.

Whichever is in stock*

smf · Sep 22, 2021

D34DL1N3R said:
PS. Linus TT is kind of a moron. Mostly pretends to be a lot smarter than he is. He's also the annoying tech equivalent of the childrens show character Blippie. LOL!

I never got the impression he pretended to be smart.

Other people write the script, he often makes mistakes putting things together.

My impression is they tell you to build your own water cooling because you have to know how it all works for when it goes wrong.

LeyendaV · Sep 22, 2021

I mean, this information has been out there for a few weeks already. Kinda old news.

Huneter · Sep 22, 2021

Can't wait to wait 2 years to get this!

chrisrlink · Sep 23, 2021

watch me get the v2 straight from Sony tomorrow

ChibiMofo · Sep 24, 2021

Retroboy said:
Sony aren't like nintendont

That's why we buy Nintendo products rather than overpriced and overhyped Sony products.

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