Covid-19 vaccine

Xzi · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
Having a non-mRNA option available would've helped with distribution among the vaccine hesitant.

I'm not so sure, I think a lot of people who say they're hesitant because of the "newness" of the mRNA vaccines are really just looking for any excuse, and a good portion of them are already aware of the J&J vaccine being more traditional. Call them out on that and they just move on to the "not fully FDA approved" excuse. Once all the vaccines are fully approved it'll be something else. It never ends with people who are committed to ignorance for life.

Lacius · Jul 29, 2021

Xzi said:
I'm not so sure, I think a lot of people who say they're hesitant because of the "newness" of the mRNA vaccines are really just looking for any excuse, and a good portion of them are already aware of the J&J vaccine being more traditional. Call them out on that and they just move on to the "not fully FDA approved" excuse. Once all the vaccines are fully approved it'll be something else. It never ends with people who are committed to ignorance for life.

Anecdotally, I personally know people who have hesitancy about the mRNA vaccines who got the J&J vaccine. I think you're right that most people are just looking for any excuse to be against the vaccines, but the existence of the J&J vaccine and others like it are beneficial for this reason and others. I also know people who hate shots and wanted something "one and done."

Foxi4 · Jul 29, 2021

Xzi said:
I'm not so sure, I think a lot of people who say they're hesitant because of the "newness" of the mRNA vaccines are really just looking for any excuse, and a good portion of them are already aware of the J&J vaccine being more traditional. Call them out on that and they just move on to the "not fully FDA approved" excuse. Once all the vaccines are fully approved it'll be something else. It never ends with people who are committed to ignorance for life.

It's an alternative nonetheless. If anyone is hesitant based on that factor, they have an alternative, and having alternatives is good. You have to pick your battles - do you want to get people vaccinated or do you want to call them stupid? Those two things are not one and the same. The worries are not baseless - we don't know the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines and vaccine injury does exist. Thing is, those two worries pale in comparison to the risk posed by the disease itself - they're theoretical and distant, the risk from COVID is both very real and present. Imagine you're on the 2nd floor of a burning building and you have the option of A) trusting the firefighters, who are trained and know what they're doing, to catch you with their trampoline, with a small risk of hurting yourself in the process, or B) staying in the burning house and hoping for the best that the fire is put out before it gets to you. I'll take a broken leg, thank you - my leg will heal, it's hard to recover from getting chargrilled.

Xzi · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
do you want to get people vaccinated or do you want to call them stupid?

I was never the one advising against vaccination in the first place, that was always their own political leaders and media figures. Thankfully many of those people have reversed course now, but it may be too late to save as many constituents as they would've liked. Especially given how conspiracy-minded, and several layers of confirmation bias deep, a lot of those constituents are.

Foxi4 · Jul 29, 2021

Xzi said:
I was never the one advising against vaccination in the first place, that was always their own political leaders and media figures. Thankfully many of those people have reversed course now, but it may be too late to save as many constituents as they would've liked. Especially given how conspiracy-minded and several layers of confirmation bias deep a lot of those constituents are.

The problem I have with the pro-vax movement right now is that they're branding vaccine hesitant people immoral idiots. That's not how you change hearts and minds - vinegar will never be as effective as honey. They're, by and large, not stupid - the loud, conspiratorial ones might be, but most are just uninformed. We should try to meet half-way and dispel their doubts, otherwise you're just reinforcing their beliefs. You have to look at it from their perspective - they're looking at a brand-new disease that appears to primarily attack the elderly, and the rolled out vaccines are using new technology that they don't fully understand. Even the researchers themselves acknowledge that they're in uncharted territory - that doesn't build confidence in a layman. I personally know a lot of young people who look at the mortality graph and shrug - they, objectively, don't need the jab as much as grandpa does. By all statistical measures they're at risk of catching the sniffles, so it's a pretty hard sell. The point of them taking the vaccine is explicitly stopping the spread, so you have to incentivise that as an objectively correct and good course of action, for a variety of reasons.

djpannda · Jul 29, 2021

Lacius said:
Anecdotally, I personally know people who have hesitancy about the mRNA vaccines who got the J&J vaccine. I think you're right that most people are just looking for any excuse to be against the vaccines, but the existence of the J&J vaccine and others like it are beneficial for this reason and others. I also know people who hate shots and wanted something "one and done."

The funny part is I know many Catholics that refused J&J as it was created “with info derived from stem cell research” and wanted mRNA as it was Developed farther from stem cell research. Either way they got vaccinated..

Foxi4 · Jul 29, 2021

djpannda said:
The funny part is I know many Catholics that refused J&J as it was created “with info derived from stem cell research” and wanted mRNA as it was Developed farther from stem cell research. Either way they got vaccinated..

More evidence that more options is better. People like choice, they don't like coercion. If you make the vaccine elective, accessible and acceptable based on their beliefs, most will take it.

djpannda · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
More evidence that more options is better. People like choice, they don't like coercion. If you make the vaccine elective, accessible and acceptable based on their beliefs, most will take it.

People with valid Religious beliefs are not the issue.(as almost all Major Religons have stated that the use of the vaccine is acceptable as “ the number of human lives that will save outweighs the “stem cell “ issue.

.it’s people who believe Tucker Carlson and Q are all knowing Gods when they says all vaccines are murderous experiments ..that’s the problem

Foxi4 · Jul 29, 2021

djpannda said:
People with valid Religious beliefs are not the issue..it’s people who believe Tucker Carlson and Q are all knowing Gods when they says all vaccines are murderous experiments ..that’s the problem

To my knowledge, Tucker Carson has never spoken against vaccination as a method of building immunity. He criticised vaccine mandates which are an imposition on liberty if mandated by the state, he criticised news agencies for having a position on whether their viewers should or should not vaccinate because journalists are not medical professionals and should not issue medical advice, and I believe he may have tackled the fact that vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued for the negative outcomes caused by their product, which is a privilege that does not apply to any other industry. All three are valid concerns which are rarely talked about in the mainstream. If you can cite him saying that it's a conspiracy to kill people, I would like to see that quote - he himself vehemently denies any accusations of being an anti-vaxxer. In all fairness, I may not be aware of all of his past statements as I don't really know much about him, nor do I care since I don't watch FOX, but that seems like an extraordinary accusation - one that he personally denies.

djpannda · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
To my knowledge, Tucker Carson has never spoken against vaccination as a method of building immunity. He criticised vaccine mandates which are an imposition on liberty if mandated by the state, he criticised news agencies for having a position on whether their viewers should or should not vaccinate because journalists are not medical professionals and should not issue medical advice, and I believe he may have tackled the fact that vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued for the negative outcomes caused by their product, which is a privilege that does not apply to any other industry. All three are valid concerns which are rarely talked about in the mainstream. If you can cite him saying that it's a conspiracy to kill people, I would like to see that quote - he himself vehemently denies any accusations of being an anti-vaxxer. In all fairness, I may not be aware of all of his past statements as I don't really know much about him, nor do I care since I don't watch FOX, but that seems like an extraordinary accusation - one that he personally denies.

. "So maybe it doesn't work, and they're simply not telling you that. Well, you'd hate to think that, especially if you've gotten two shots. But what's the other potential explanation? We can't think of one."

“force people to take medicine they don’t want or NEED.” (Implying COVID is not a problem)

“ 3,362 people apparently died after getting the COVID vaccines in the United States....The actual number is almost certainly much higher than that — perhaps vastly higher”

The fact his comparing the vaccine to a Lobotomy andSterilization, his base are just parriot whatever he says, they are are under the impression that his show is Real News not a “Entertainment show” as they claim in court .This is dangerous.

SG854 · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
The problem I have with the pro-vax movement right now is that they're branding vaccine hesitant people immoral idiots. That's not how you change hearts and minds - vinegar will never be as effective as honey. They're, by and large, not stupid - the loud, conspiratorial ones might be, but most are just uninformed. We should try to meet half-way and dispel their doubts, otherwise you're just reinforcing their beliefs. You have to look at it from their perspective - they're looking at a brand-new disease that appears to primarily attack the elderly, and the rolled out vaccines are using new technology that they don't fully understand. Even the researchers themselves acknowledge that they're in uncharted territory - that doesn't build confidence in a layman. I personally know a lot of young people who look at the mortality graph and shrug - they, objectively, don't need the jab as much as grandpa does. By all statistical measures they're at risk of catching the sniffles, so it's a pretty hard sell. The point of them taking the vaccine is explicitly stopping the spread, so you have to incentivise that as an objectively correct and good course of action, for a variety of reasons.

It's like a teacher calling their students idiots for not knowing what they know. The best method for the teacher is to educate without resorting to name calling.

But that's not the issue people have with anti-vax. The issue is not uneducated people. The issue is educated people being stubborn. People knowing the benefits for vaccine, from arguments they heard or whatever, and still being stubbornly against it. That's what I reserve the word idiot for.

I know people don't like being called idiots. And they get defensive so they double down. But I just don't care anymore. Knowing they will get defensive, and even less likely to get vaccinated, I will still call them idiots.

This may seem counter intuitive because it's against what we want from them. We want them to get vaccinated. But they are going to be stubborn no matter what you say. If you go pages and pages, talking about it in many different angles, approaching it in many different ways, and they still don't budge then they won't change.

So the goal of calling them idiots is not for them, hoping it will get them to change. The reason for calling them idiots is for other people reading or listening in these conversations. To make the stubborn person look as ridiculous as possible. Then the more you make them look ridiculous, the more motivating it is for other people that are tuning in to not want to look like them so the more likely they are to get vaccinated.

Sometimes humiliating people, making jokes about them, and making them look ridiculous using good sound arguments and good logic is the best motivator for others after all other methods have been exhausted.

Xzi · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
The problem I have with the pro-vax movement right now is that they're branding vaccine hesitant people immoral idiots. That's not how you change hearts and minds - vinegar will never be as effective as honey. They're, by and large, not stupid - the loud, conspiratorial ones might be, but most are just uninformed. We should try to meet half-way and dispel their doubts, otherwise you're just reinforcing their beliefs. You have to look at it from their perspective - they're looking at a brand-new disease that appears to primarily attack the elderly, and the rolled out vaccines are using new technology that they don't fully understand.

Thankfully it's not my job to ensure anti-vaxxers are well-informed and argue the facts from every psychological angle on the books, I couldn't possibly get paid enough for that. Ultimately they're most likely to be harming themselves more than anyone else, which is again why conservatives are scrambling to reverse their messaging now. If even half of the old farts in the party die off, they're never winning another election on the federal level again. Not to mention all the COVID long-haulers who might start demanding better healthcare.

Foxi4 · Jul 29, 2021

djpannda said:
. "So maybe it doesn't work, and they're simply not telling you that. Well, you'd hate to think that, especially if you've gotten two shots. But what's the other potential explanation? We can't think of one."

“force people to take medicine they don’t want or NEED.” (Implying COVID is not a problem)

“ 3,362 people apparently died after getting the COVID vaccines in the United States....The actual number is almost certainly much higher than that — perhaps vastly higher”

The fact his comparing the vaccine to a Lobotomy andSterilization, his base are just parriot whatever he says, they are are under the impression that his show is Real News not a “Entertainment show” as they claim in court .This is dangerous.

Let's examine this statement by statement without sensational headlines.

"If the vaccine is effective, there is no reason for people who've received a vaccine to wear masks or avoid physical contact, so maybe it doesn't work, and they're simply not telling you that. Well, you'd hate to think that, especially if you've gotten two shots. But what's the other potential explanation? We can't think of one."

That's a criticism of mask mandates, not vaccines. If you are vaccinated, the risk of you catching the disease is greatly diminished, let alone passing the disease on to another person, so there's no logical reason to require it. It does imply that vaccines don't actually work - that's a logical conclusion from the policy. It's not true, which further underlines why the policy is boneheaded without an additional explanation - the government cannot verify whether you've taken the vaccine or not due to potential HIPAA violations. That's the actual reason why a mask mandate would have to be universal, not lack of efficacy.

Mr. Carlson, the highest-rated Fox News host, with an average of 2.9 million viewers, said the Biden plan was an attempt to “force people to take medicine they don’t want or need.” He called the initiative “the greatest scandal in my lifetime, by far.”

He's right when he says that not everybody *needs* the vaccine (again, mortality in young people is 0.2%, that's not a pressing concern for them - young people should take it to protect others, lessening their risk is an added benefit, not the goal), he's right when he says that going door to door is a bizarre (I'd have serious concerns in regards to privacy) and he's right that it shouldn't be forced on people - it's good, but should be elective. He says as much later.

"Between late December of 2020, and last month, a total of 3,362 people apparently died after getting the COVID vaccines in the United States. Three thousand, three hundred, and sixty-two — that's an average of 30 people every day."

No idea where he got that figure from, so I'm not going to defend that. It's entirely possible that one of his assistants provided him a number of deaths of people who were also vaccinated, but died in general in that time frame - that's far more believable, but would require a correction on his part. In any case, if the number were true, which it isn't, it would still be insignificant given the sheer amount of people who were vaccinated so far.

"American citizens should never be forced to take medicine they don’t want, period. Governments should never require people to submit to any medical procedure, whether that procedure is sterilization, or frontal lobotomies or COVID vaccine"

This is a criticism of vaccination mandates, not vaccines. It's also apt considering the fact that the U.S. government *was* involved in compulsory sterilisation as well as lobotomising patients. It's not a pleasant part of history, but it's history nonetheless. His point, in case you didn't understand, is that the state should not be empowered to force you to undergo any medical procedure you don't want - you have bodily autonomy which supercedes the whims of the government. If the government is *forcing* you to take a specific medicine, that's an indication of impropriety, regardless of whether there's actually something wrong with it or not.

So far you have failed to provide a statement where Tucker calls the vaccines a "plot to murder people", he's raising concerns, some valid and some invalid, regarding the program as a whole. In fact, one of your own articles states precisely what he thinks.

I’ve had a million vaccines in my life, as we all have,” the host said on an April show. “I think vaccines are great.”

You're more than welcome to criticise him for potentially causing vaccine hesitancy and one of the listed figures is clearly incorrect, which he should provide an errata for, but you don't have to twist his words to make a point. He hasn't said that this is some bizarre plot to murder people, and if he has, I haven't heard that yet. You can prove me wrong if you find such a quote, I'm open to changing my mind, but you'll have to try a bit harder than that.

SG854 said:
It's like a teacher calling their students idiots for not knowing what they know. The best method for the teacher is to educate without resorting to name calling.

But that's not the issue people have with anti-vax. The issue is not uneducated people. The issue is educated people being stubborn. People knowing the benefits for vaccine, from arguments they heard or whatever, and still being stubbornly against it. That's what I reserve the word idiot for.

I know people don't like being called idiots. And they get defensive so they double down. But I just don't care anymore. Knowing they will get defensive, and even less likely to get vaccinated, I will still call them idiots.

This may seem counter intuitive because it's against what we want from them. We want them to get vaccinated. But they are going to be stubborn no matter what you say. If you go pages and pages, talking about it in many different angles, approaching it in many different ways, and they still don't budge then they won't change.

So the goal of calling them idiots is not for them, hoping it will get them to change. The reason for calling them idiots is for other people reading or listening in these conversations. To make the stubborn person look as ridiculous as possible. Then the more you make them look ridiculous, the more motivating it is for other people that are tuning in to not want to look like them so the more likely they are to get vaccinated.

Sometimes humiliating people, making jokes about them, and making them look ridiculous using good sound arguments and good logic is the best motivator for others after all other methods have been exhausted.

Shame is a great motivator when it comes to people who know and respect you. If your mom or dad are refusing to take the jab, you should call them idiots, and they might listen. If you call a stranger an idiot, not only will they not listen to you, they will actively despise you and your suggestion. Doing this is counterproductive, you are creating vaccine hesitancy just as much as anti-vaxxers are by making your side of the argument insufferable. Few things can match the power of spite.

Xzi said:
Thankfully it's not my job to ensure anti-vaxxers are well-informed and argue the facts from every psychological angle on the books, I couldn't possibly get paid enough for that. Ultimately they're most likely to be harming themselves more than anyone else, which is again why conservatives are scrambling to reverse their messaging now. If even half of the old farts in the party die off, they're never winning another election on the federal level again. Not to mention all the COVID long-haulers who might start demanding better healthcare.

Again, you are going against your stated goals. You want them to do you a solid, not the other way around, because you want to avoid generating more variants that people are not immune to. They already don't care about the consequences - they've made a risk-reward calculation and it didn't go the way you'd find broadly beneficial. It is encumbent on you to change their minds, and being an asshole about it isn't going to do the trick. All this time the pro-vaccine crowd was explicitly stating that they care about saving lives - now you claim that you don't care about their lives, so which one is it? If you state one thing, but actually believe another, then you're being duplicitous.

djpannda · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
Let's examine this statement by statement without sensational headlines.
That's a criticism of mask mandates, not vaccines. If you are vaccinated, the risk of you catching the disease is greatly diminished, let alone passing the disease on to another person, so there's no logical reason to require it. It does imply that vaccines don't actually work - that's a logical conclusion from the policy. It's not true, which further underlines why the policy is boneheaded with out an additional explanation - the government cannot verify whether you've taken the vaccine or not due to potential HIPAA violations. That's the actual reason why a mask mandate would have to be universal, not lack of efficacy.
He's right when he says that not everybody *needs* the vaccine (again, mortality in young people is 0.2%, that's not a pressing concern fir them - young people should take it to protect others, lessening their risk is an added benefit, not the goal) he's right when he says that going door to door is a bizarre (I'd have serious concerns in regards to privacy) and he's right that it shouldn't be forced on people - it's good, but should be elective. He says as much later.
No idea where he got that figure from, so I'm not going to defend that. It's entirely possible that one of his assistants provided him a number of deaths of people who were also vaccinated, but died in general in that time frame - that's far more believable, but would require a correction on his part. In any case, if the number were true, which it isn't, it would still be insignificant given the sheer amount of people who were vaccinated so far.
This is a criticism of vaccination mandates, not vaccines. It's also apt considering the fact that the U.S. Government *was* involved in compulsory sterilisation as well as lobotomising patients. It's not a pleasant part of history, but history nonetheless. His point, in case you didn't understand, is that the state should not be empowered to force you to undergo any medical procedure you don't want - you have bodily autonomy which supercedes the whims of the government. If the government is *forcing* you to take a specific medicine, that's an indication of impropriety, regardless of whether there's actually something wrong with it or not.

So far you have failed to provide a statement where Tucker calls the vaccines a "plot to murder people", he's raising concerns, some valid and some invalid, regarding the program as a whole. In fact, one of your own articles states precisely what he thinks.

You're more than welcome to criticise him for potentially causing vaccine hesitancy and one of the listed figures is clearly incorrect, which he should provide an errata for, but you don't have to twist his words to make a point. He hasn't said that this is some bizzare plot to murder people, and if he has, I haven't heard that yet. You can prove me wrong if you find such a quote, I'm open to changing my mind, but you'll have to try a bit harder than that.

Shame is a great motivator when it comes to people who know and respect you. If your mom or dad are refusing to take the jab, you should call them idiots, and they might listen. If you call a stranger an idiot, not only will they not listen to you, they will actively despise you and your suggestion. Doing this is counterproductive, you are creating vaccine hesitancy just as much as abti-vaxxers are by making your side of the argument insufferable.

Like I said any responsible sensible person would interpret claims like you just did.. but Tuckers base are ... “not responsible or sensible”.Tucker purposely uses this to “Infer” that it’s not safe

Foxi4 · Jul 29, 2021

djpannda said:
Like I said any responsible sensible person would interpret claims like you just did.. but Tuckers base are ... “not responsible or sensible”.Tucker purposely uses this to “Infer” that it’s not safe

Tucker is not responsible for how third-parties misinterpret his statements - he's not their dad.

djpannda · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
Tucker is not responsible for how third-parties misinterpret his statements - he's not their dad.

Yup, a mod accepting and allowing Malicious interpretations of data that is purposely used to allow and promote needless death, sickness and suffering .. nothing wrong with that

Foxi4 · Jul 29, 2021

djpannda said:
Yup, a mod accepting and allowing Malicious interpretations of data that is purposely used to allow and promote needless death, sickness and suffering .. nothing wrong with that

You've tried this shtick before and it didn't work, I don't know why you think it will this time. You (and anybody with basic literacy skills) know that's not what I said. I'm sorry that you couldn't find a quote that supports your hyperbolic accusation, maybe next time you can accuse someone of something that's actually believable and provable. Of course you don't have to take the advice, I'm not your dad.

tabzer · Jul 29, 2021

djpannda said:
almost all Major Religons have stated that the use of the vaccine is acceptable

Crap. This is as dumb as "science says".

tabzer · Jul 29, 2021

Here's some AJ to digest. (And some Canadian Doctors)

https://www.infowars.com/posts/deadly-blood-clots-develop-in-62-of-people-receiving-covid-vaccine/

SG854 said:
The reason for calling them idiots is for other people reading or listening in these conversations.

Oh nice. Bullying people vicariously.

Xzi · Jul 29, 2021

Foxi4 said:
It is encumbent on you to change their minds, and being an asshole about it isn't going to do the trick. All this time the pro-vaccine crowd was explicitly stating that they care about saving lives - now you claim that you don't care about their lives, so which one is it? If you state one thing, but actually believe another, then you're being duplicitous.

Duplicity doesn't enter into the equation, the simple fact of the matter is that my patience has a time limit, especially when it comes to dealing with fully grown, supposedly-mature adults. I put in more than six good months of telling everybody and their dog to get vaccinated, online and off. Those that were gonna take my advice (for what little it's worth) have already done so. Those stubborn idiots that won't even listen to the new pro-vaccine position of right-wing pundits and political leaders were never going to be swayed by anything I have to say.

Foxi4 said:
Again, you are going against your stated goals. You want them to do you a solid, not the other way around, because you want to avoid generating more variants that people are not immune to.

More variants are not ideal, but then we'll just have more vaccine boosters that the anti-vaxxers won't take. Eventually Darwinism wins out.

Covid-19 vaccine

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