Persona 4 and the benefits of imperfect representation

In recent years, proper representation for LGBT characters has become an increasingly hot topic amongst gamers. There's a dearth of gay characters in gaming, which has naturally led to a lot of demand for more representation. While that's admirable, I feel the fervor for gay representation can sometimes be reductive to the nuances in sexuality. Case in point: Kanji Tatsumi, a gay character who's been denounced recently by certain parts of the Persona fandom for being noncommittal in his role as a gay representative for the series.

Persona 4 is about helping people deal with their repressed emotions. Each dungeon is a physical manifestation of somebody's psyche, and the boss will be their Shadow, a distorted version of how they view the parts of themselves they can’t accept. Kanji’s dungeon is a men’s bathhouse; his Shadow is a lispy, flirtatious man running around in a towel. The message seems fairly obvious: Kanji is a closeted homosexual. But things aren’t as cut and dry as that.

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I think this is where a lot of people’s issues with Kanji’s story come from. It feels a little like queerbaiting—teasing a queer character early on to get the attention of fans desperate for LGBT representation, only to backpedal later and say “Don’t worry guys, he’s not really gay!” I understand the frustration at that, but I think dismissing Kanji as a bad LGBT character simply because of it does a massive disservice to the story he tells about the complexity of sexuality.

Kanji’s family owns a textile shop, which leads to Kanji developing a knack for knitting and sewing at a young age. He gets mocked for being too girly and becomes isolated from the world, as both sexes mock a man with such feminine interests. Partially to reaffirm his masculinity and partially to solidify the wedge between him and the world that rejected him, Kanji adopts an overly tough and brutish persona, replacing people’s contempt for him with fear. But that insecurity over his lack of masculinity stays embedded, and possibly manifests as his confused sexuality.

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We first see Kanji’s attraction to men when he meets Naoto Shirogane, a woman who’s presenting as a man at the time. (Whether or not Naoto is another example of queerbaiting is a whole other can of worms I won’t get into.) After discovering she’s a woman, he continues being attracted to her. Of course, the root of his attraction to Naoto is that she’s one of the few people to accept him and make him feel valued or safe. But it leaves the question of his orientation murkier, leading to cries of noncommittal representation being lobbied against the game.

It’s important to note, however, that just because Kanji’s only love interest is female, that doesn’t stop him from being a queer character. Nothing definitive is ever stated about Kanji’s sexuality, and more crucially, Kanji seems just as fervent for answers as his fans. For example, when the prospect of Naoto entering a beauty pageant comes up, putting her in a position where she would dress more traditionally feminine than she does otherwise, Kanji begs her to do so as his ”doubts will finally be cleared."

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The idea of not understanding your own sexuality may seem alien to some people—whether you’re straight or gay or anywhere in between, you just like what you like, right?—but the complexity and range of feelings present can be hard to navigate as a teenager, especially for those who have had self-doubt instilled in them from isolating experiences as a youth. Your natural instinct is to cling to labels, these safe harbors of identity that define the people around you, who seem so much more secure than you. As helpful as labels are as shorthands for communicating, they're not always the most robust at nailing down one's feelings.

Personally speaking, I consider myself mostly straight, as I’m attracted to women but have always had a slight attraction to men since I hit puberty. As silly as it sounds now, the underwhelming nature of that attraction drove me crazy as a kid, as it left me without a comfortable label and identity. Girls caught my attention everywhere I went, yet I couldn’t help but notice—and appreciate—men with some degree of regularity. I didn’t think I was gay, but those pesky thoughts reminded me I wasn’t totally straight either. My conception of bisexuality at the time was that it was a purely equal, balanced attraction to either sex, so I couldn’t find any sense of identity there either. I would try to force thoughts into my head, to cut out the unwelcome ones and force myself to be either gay or straight. I didn’t care which one; I just wanted to know where I belonged.

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This led to panic and rumination over my sexuality. I’d heard stories of men who wouldn’t come out of the closet until middle age, sometimes having a wife and kids, so I worried that I was gay and would waste much of my life in the closet. Maybe I was gay and I was just trying to suppress my feelings after growing up in a household with four older brothers who were constantly hurling gay jokes, usually at me. Or maybe I was straight and the vague attraction to men was implanted in me from internalizing those jokes. Maybe I was straight and was simply so desperate for acceptance and love that I’d be willing to settle for a man. I realize these ideas are ridiculous, but without any grounding sense of identity back then, I was floundering to simply understand who I was. After all, I’d never seen anyone going through what I was going through, so I must have been the only one. It must just be a problem with my screwy head.

I wish there was a more narratively satisfying conclusion to this story, but after a few years of this, more pressing concerns came up and I simply decided that I was happy to call myself straight and live that way, but to keep my mind open if the opportunity to explore those feelings ever arose. I’d be lying if I said I still didn’t have some lingering frustration at the lack of consistency in my sexuality, but I’m still taking things one day at a time.

I can’t help but wonder, however, if seeing a story like Kanji’s would have helped me back then. Some simple reassurance that things aren’t as easy for everyone as they seem sometimes. Something to let me know it’s okay to not understand yourself, as long as you can accept the answers you find in your own time. I realize there's another side to this coin, that there are gay gamers out there who needed to see someone like Kanji fully embrace his homosexuality and be out and proud, and I empathize with how hard it would be to see him heel turn and, conveniently, unknowingly be attracted to a woman the entire time. Regardless, I think the backlash to his story is a bit overblown, and even reductive to the case for LGBT representation. Sure, I'd love to see a fully out Persona character someday, but to pretend that Kanji doesn't represent the LGBT community is to ignore the huge, complex spectrum of sexuality that’s out there.
 

Valwinz

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Now i understand someone of the fellow hard fans of the Megaten Universe said the persona series are the casual jrpg western.Thanks to the op i will delisted persona 4 of my wishlist steam.Dont me wrong i dont delist persona 4 for being antigay lobby. Simple i dont like rpg dungeons with emotions of the characters.
bru don't give up on the game is great ignore op nonsense
 

Lucaserf

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My god, this thing again ? Haven't this been discussed in the millions of tumblr blogposts and the infinite youtube videos ? The game was made in japan, with japanese culture in mind, which mind you, isn't one of the most LGBT accepting cultures around the world . That alone should tell you how they would possibly portray these sensitive issues. At least they've kinda tried tackling such issues, in a time that almost no one would (2008).
 

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My god, this thing again ? Haven't this been discussed in the millions of tumblr blogposts and the infinite youtube videos ? The game was made in japan, with japanese culture in mind, which mind you, isn't one of the most LGBT accepting cultures around the world . That alone should tell you how they would possibly portray these sensitive issues. At least they've kinda tried tackling such issues, in a time that almost no one would (2008).
yes i know the culture lbgt since 2008.But i dont delist in my wishlist for that reason.If the story is around the emotion of the characters and their emotions are the dungeon....it so lame and that why i delist it. I want my epic super adventure like chronotrigger or the dark obsure history of the Shin Megami Tensei Series.
 
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SG854

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My god, this thing again ? Haven't this been discussed in the millions of tumblr blogposts and the infinite youtube videos ? The game was made in japan, with japanese culture in mind, which mind you, isn't one of the most LGBT accepting cultures around the world . That alone should tell you how they would possibly portray these sensitive issues. At least they've kinda tried tackling such issues, in a time that almost no one would (2008).
I think its people looking too much into deeper meaning. It's like that South park episode that was making fun of people that look into deeper meaning into things that is way beyond what the author intended. The Tale of Scrotie McBoogerballs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Scrotie_McBoogerballs


I do think based on Japanese culture in the 2000's they were just making jokes, not actually doing representation.


I haven't played the game in years. So I don't remember alot if the dialog just a disclaimer.
 
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jomaper

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Good read, it's a shame gamers in general are some of the worst scum in general when it comes to LGBTQ issues, and it seems this community couldn't escape from that.
I honestly wouldn't waste much energy tbf, it only gets you free attacks and horrible comments.

and this is a lie show me the proof

You smoothbrain, you're the one saying there is good representation. What do you want them to do? To list every single piece that portrays LGBTQ people in a non-queerbaiting non-joke light? Why don't you give a single good example of them if you're so sure it's a lie?
 
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Hells Malice

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Ugh, aw shit here we go again. Stop bringing LGBullshiT topics to these games, specially persona and story of seasons series, thats why nobody takes those games seriously anymore. Community can spoil a game so much...

Are...are you retarded?
Persona 4 came out in 2008. Snowflake culture didn't really take off until 2012ish. But 2008 was the peak of homosexual reform actually allowing them to be real people with, y'know, rights.
Granted you were probably still in diapers when the game came out (though lets be honest here you're probably still in diapers regardless).

I'll be the first to get annoyed when snowflake bullshit and checklists get shoehorned into games but Persona 4's story did it in about the most organic way any videogame ever has.

There was really nothing wrong with it or how it was done and if it makes you uncomfortable it's probably because the closet you're in is too small to keep staying in
 

ZeroFX

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a load of crap
You are retarded it seems, since i'm not talking about the game having it, but about people like op that loves to bring these topics on games like persona 4 that hasn't these bs, kanji is just a guy with insecurities and ofc this was done to appease to the westerners but he's straight. I'll just ignore the ad hominem and your diaper fetish, since you're very adult and mature.
 
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Foxi4

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I don't know why you guys find it difficult to imagine that people can find strength or clarity in works of art that are otherwise completely unrelated to their actual issue. If @relauby found it soothing or inspiring, or if a certain character resonated with him because of a certain base character trait, they're entitled to write an opinion piece about it. You can use a singular trait to represent a multitude of different things, often things you didn't intend as an author because it never even crossed your mind - Kanji for instance is insecure, so people who are also insecure will feel a degree of kinship with him, regardless of whether they feel insecure for the same reasons or not. It's called an archetype - to translate from Jungian to human, a base mental image which reflects a specific primitive role or function, something so primal and basic that you could argue it's in our DNA. It's an integral part of human psychology - as a species we like to compartmentalise things into neat little boxes, and we all know the labels on those boxes without realising it. Let me demonstrate.
  • Joker, the Hero for obvious reasons, but also a messianic archetype, someone who suffers for the redemption of others, symbolic of sacrifice. Often seeks salvation for himself as much as others. Magician, former of personal connections, with others and with the broader universe. Mysterious and difficult to understand, and he's aware of it. Also a Trickster or Jester - uses deception in order to achieve his goals. Needs to be reminded to go to bed, life is short. Pursues experiences, likes being playful. In other words, a Joker.
  • Ryuji, also a Jester, someone who pursues amusement, a person that lives in the moment. Frivolous, prone to waste time, keen on clowning around and fearful of being a bore, or being bored. He's also the Rebel - a rule-breaker, misfit, someone who desires change and revolution, often via cracking Skulls. Scared of being powerless in the moment, fast to use force as a result. Chooses destruction over reason, thus liable to lose himself and cross over into darkness. Easy to anger, a great ally and a fearsome enemy in a fight.
  • Ann, the Lover, symbolic of sexuality and intimacy, but also kindness and compassion. Enthusiastic glue that binds people together into relationships, in this case the team. Fearful of being unloved or unwanted, or losing her own identity in her attempts to please others. Sensual, focused on emotion, capable of evoking them and wielding them as weapons. Graceful, but occasionally catty, like a Panther.
  • Futaba, the Caregiver - altruistic supporter, sits on the sidelines. Finds strength in propping up others, but liable to be exploited. Also a Sage - uses intelligence in pursuit of the truth. Keen on helping others navigate the world. Her weakness is the propensity to study forever and never act upon the knowledge gained herself - she fears missing out. Seeker of information that bestows wisdom on others, like an Oracle.
  • Yusuke, the Artist/Creator, he's an eccentric, symbolic of vision and imagination. A dreamer, often to his own detriment. Fearful of imperfection and mediocrity, particularly in his craft - a perfectionist, to a fault. Clever, out of the box thinker, like a Fox.
  • Makoto, the Ruler - a figure of authority, often in pursuit of political career. Strategist, keen to exercise power and control. Very orderly, desires the creation of stability, more broadly in society, personally in family. Fearful of failing to delegate, losing position, letting others down through indecision. Liable to become authoritarian, a bossy person when irked. Often a member of the royalty, like a Queen. Get it? Do you get it yet?
You should, since Persona 5 is really on-the-nose about it and straight-up tells you that this is the case at one point. Criticise less, read more. This is a recurring theme in the series, they're all oriented around psychology and the self. It's literally called "Persona", meaning a presented or perceived aspect of personality. These comparisons are apt not on accident, they are purposeful. A little tip to young, aspiring writers - the more features your characters share with an archetypical figure the more relatable they are. These are the things that make us human, and we apply them liberally to everything we experience ourselves, often in unpredictable ways.
 

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Of course, the root of his attraction to Naoto is that she’s one of the few people to accept him and make him feel valued or safe. But it leaves the question of his orientation murkier, leading to cries of noncommittal representation being lobbied against the game.

It's almost if the message is that people desire to be loved/accepted, not to be a sexual representation. The people demanding the sexual representation are perverts imo. The West differs so much on the East in this approach.

The idea of not understanding your own sexuality may seem alien to some people—whether you’re straight or gay or anywhere in between, you just like what you like, right?

If somebody understands sexuality, let me know. I doubt anybody understands sexuality, let alone their own role in it.
 

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3 Steps to get disliked:
1. Like Persona 4
2. Point out its strong points
3. Say it's superior to PS5


In all seriousness though, from the first few minutes I could play it, I actually liked PS4.
And thats why I leave this -very fitting picture- here.

PS: That girl&dad combo in PS4 is way too adorable *SQUUUE*
 

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mangaTom

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I thought this was a twitter post. No offense but I honestly got tired of this topic already. Can't we just enjoy the game as it is? Honestly, if people want representation, can't they just make their own game and sell it to their own niche? No need to shove it to all kinds of media cause people have different kinds of preferences too.
 

GamerzHell9137

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Ugh, aw shit here we go again. Stop bringing LGBullshiT theories to these games, specially persona and story of seasons series, thats why nobody takes those games seriously anymore. Community can spoil a game so much...
Why do people(you) even care if people have LGBT theories about.... well anything? Its like people have some kind of ulterior motive so they need to call out their negative opinion? And the line that nobody cares about games seriously anymore because.... LGBT theories? Story of Seasons and serious? Man, clear up a bit, drink some water, touch some grass and come back later, you're making no sense. I personally think you are the reason why people can't take games seriously, you're just being too serious about farming simulators and school RPGs.
 

Kitocco

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I mean, if you're looking for representation and solidarity from fictional characters, you've got your own issues you need to work out. A character is a character first, and almost everything else comes second.
I mean… yeah.
That’s the point. Some people would like to seen or hear “you’re not alone” in tough times. Especially times they can’t feasibly control how bad they are. Felt that was pretty clear after reading the article, personally. And most of those people would probably rather not risk more social losses with what (little) they have at that moment.

I've actually seen incredibly very few examples of a gay or trans character in fiction that I actually liked, because it wasn't their sole personality for one. And guess what all the examples I've seen have in common? None of them were made in America, or other English speaking countries. It's usually in foreign films they're able to pull off a decent job of it without going "woke" to the point of making hate the shitty LGBTQRSTUVZDGFHK+ movement than I already do.
…“Forced Diversity” euphemism, much? What kind of “representation” from The West is this even about, the Gay Best Friend stereotype? Because not even I or most LGBT people I know or seen really like that stuff. Is this like “why does this character have to be gay, why can’t they keep to themselves” line that’s conspicuously absent when straight relationships & PDA are discussed? Is “make them not gay” earnestly the first thing on your list when it comes to fixing those characters you don’t like, if at all?
If not… isn’t it worth looking into why “their gay-ness” was the first thing to blame for symptom of plain bad writing?

Anyhow, thought this was a great read, and the sympathy/responses for differing views was a great touch. I think Kanji may be bi ever since I learned that bisexuality can be a range of preference and saw how my own fit there after some time thinking I was “mostly straight”, but I can see how the outcome could be seen as more open ended Plus, Kanji’s a cool peep.
Such a good read I feel like just saying “more imperfect rep because life is complicated like that & doesn’t always give clear-cut answers” feels like a disservice.

Man, I just beat Persona 5 Royal & started Scramble/Strikers, but this article makes me wanna spend some time with my Vita copy again. Shame I never beat it the first time around cuz of PSN user save complications that I ended up watching the Animation where I left off.
 

osaka35

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I'll try and over-simplify as representation is a dense and nuanced conversation. but think of it like this.


You know how it's still illegal to be gay in a lot of the world? like, you can be sentenced to death by the state just for being gay? okay, that's just gay, and the western world has gotten...better? about "gay". and that's only after decades and decades for bloody fighting for every ounce of representation and fighting for every inch to get to cultural normality.

and we're still not there! imagine all the other sexualities, and everything not normalized that should be, imagine how careful you must be to not put a target on your back by people who will literally, physically harm you for it.

and now imagine how some people will treat you like a different, lesser, person when you're simply living this normal part of your life openly.


Even if you're "okay" with it, are you comfortable with it? why? why not?


representation helps unexposed/uncomfortable folks realize this perfectly normal thing is, in fact, normal and should be accepted.

But it's not just about normalizing and educating the uneducated. Those who feel alone can understand they are not alone. Those who have been told it's ethically wrong and hate themselves can know they're not monsters. those who hide it can know the difficulties in expressing it, to help navigate the hellish landscape.

It can allow a platform for expressing how a normal, mundane part of themselves is taken as an excuse to abuse and torment. this is why folks are loud and proud. It's telling all the aholes, "you wanna hurt me because of this terribly mundane and normal part of me? Bring it, *****."


oh, and "good representation" helps the above, "bad representation" makes it worse. and it's a whole conversation on its own.


tbh I've never played a persona game. but I can definitely see the appeal.
 
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Valwinz

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You smoothbrain, you're the one saying there is good representation. What do you want them to do? To list every single piece that portrays LGBTQ people in a non-queerbaiting non-joke light? Why don't you give a single good example of them if you're so sure it's a lie?
They made the claim about persona 4 and 5 they have to prove it
 
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DJPlace

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people debating over this again...

woo boy...

i not into this stuff i like the games. (hell i'm a fan of teddie expect for his lust for the girls) also can't forget morgana (once again he's got lust for ann) and i'm not a big fan of lust.

still people should enjoy the games for the story game play etc... still i need to replay P5R. i like how they switched the outcome of the ending in P5R for a new palace... but... it ends up the same.
 
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duwen

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Strikes me that the LGBTQ+ crowd are happiest with a safe stereotypical representation of 'non-straight' genders and sexualities within games... which unfortunately often equates to rather boring and cringe worthy characters within media.
As the OP alludes to; Kanji IS representative of a portion of the population, and is more deeply structured than the majority of characters heralded by the LGBTQ+ community.
The issue is more nuanced than a simple argument about representation. Emotions and emotional maturity are also key to representation, which is why there's also little to no accurate representation of straight characters within games.
... but I'm okay with that, because I'd rather enjoy well written works of fiction for what they are than boycott them because I don't see myself represented within its cast.
 

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