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Bernie Sanders endorsing a higher minimum wage

FAST6191

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You might not care, but yes he's got quite a bit of actual power now as chairman of the Senate Budget Committee. Basically ensures Biden has to pass at least some progressive-friendly legislation if he wants to keep getting funding for his moderate and neolib shit.


As usual, if you want employees with more than the minimum work ethic, you have to pay more than minimum wage, and that applies regardless of how many times it's raised.


That's precisely why corporations support minimum wage hikes: they know they can afford it, they know they're getting off cheap compared to other nations' minimums, and they believe it'll quiet discussions about unionizing for a time.
I didn't know he was chucked a bone as far as a position. Thought he was just an also ran and in that case could have been dismissed or at least relegated to (figure)head of a particular wing of the US democratic party.

So minimum wage is basically ineffective or some virtual equivalent of inflation happens to match? How amusing.

They know they are getting off cheap or they know it fucks with their competition (large and small) that does have staffing as a major cost?
 

laudern

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With all of the unskilled, low wage seeking illegal immigrants that the democrats love letting into the country, you're more likely to see the minimum wage be decreased, not increased.
 

Lacius

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but are you OK with current administration printing so much money? we are talking about trillions of dollars out from nowhere, and if any other nations printed so much money will become as same as Venezuela.
I don't think the United States should print so much money, since long-term inflation is effectively a regressive tax that affects the poor as much, if not more than, the rich. Instead of printing so much money, we should just be taxing the rich more. That all being said, money-printing isn't even close to the top of my list of worries.

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With all of the unskilled, low wage seeking illegal immigrants that the democrats love letting into the country, you're more likely to see the minimum wage be decreased, not increased.
Even illegal immigrants should be able to make a livable wage.

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It would be a step in the right direction, yes. Iirc, it's not even about redistribution of wealth (though that's certainly a major asset) but just a fair catching up to the current state of living.

Otherwise said : minimum wage isn't enough to cover minimal expenses. And that's what makes this situation hugely important and probably critical. Because if you're working two (full time) jobs to make ends meet, it means you're stealing someone else's work. Whereas both those jobs should at least be enough for basic living.

But to be fair... Didn't this proposal already strand in the senate or house? I remember reading something about a handful democrats voting together with the Republicans.

Whether ceo's loans are too high is a different discussion. Since they own the company, I can't blame them for coding their own loan. So artificially capping it isn't a good idea. Rather, there should be systems in place that naturally reduce this. A higher minimum wage most likely helps (since the amount of money a company makes, you can't change one without the other), but a more progressive tax plan would be better. Unfortunately the US isn't just lacking in that department but goes in the opposite direction.
Some Democrats in the Senate voted against a $15 minimum wage because the Senate parliamentarian said it couldn't be in a budget reconciliation bill, not because they were inherently against the $15 minimum wage. If they really wanted it though, they could have voted for it and let Vice President Harris overrule the parliamentarian (we have no evidence she would have for sure done this), but it was probably convenient for a lot of these Senators to have the cover of voting against it for purely procedural reasons when they're from competitive states.

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Bernie aka the biggest loser that they stole his primary 2 times
There's an argument to be made that in the 2016 Democratic primary, Sanders was treated somewhat unfairly (superdelegates, few debates and at stupid times, Clinton receiving questions early, etc.), but I'm not sure how anything was stolen from him in 2020.
 
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Xzi

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So minimum wage is basically ineffective or some virtual equivalent of inflation happens to match? How amusing.
Inflation's never been nearly that out of control in this country, otherwise we would've had a Greek-style economic collapse on our hands. Still, it does eat a bit of the average worker's paycheck every year it goes unaccounted for. Only very specific white-collar positions give out annual raises to counter it.

They know they are getting off cheap or they know it fucks with their competition (large and small) that does have staffing as a major cost?
This is why you have separate assistance programs for small businesses, but large corporations squashed anything that could've been considered real competition long ago. No mom and pop store is suddenly gonna run Wal-Mart or McDonald's out of town, so we might as well ensure they aren't also cheating taxpayers by forcing their employees to go on food stamps or welfare to survive.
 

sarkwalvein

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Nobody should work a full-time job and live in poverty. The minimum wage should be raised to at least $15. If you agree with this, you might want to start voting Democratic.
But to be honest, democrats are a disappointment.
Flip-flopping mercenaries that speak nice words but don't keep any promises.
Evil pretenders in disguise.

TBH my feelings as late... Not that I can propose a good alternative, but the fact one can't suggest a good alternative doesn't make them any good.
 

Hanafuda

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This 'issue' is a non-issue.

The number of employed persons in the United States making the federal minimum wage or less is under 3% of all workers. In 1979, it was over 13%.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm#:~:text=The percentage of hourly paid,collected on a regular basis.


Minimum wage exists for the purpose of entering the workforce when you're 16-20 years old and have no skillset or experience. Very, very few jobs pay minimum wage. If you're 40 years old and making minimum, you dun fucked up your life somewhere and you're just taking that position away from an ambitious young person who is trying to get started.
 

Lacius

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This 'issue' is a non-issue.

The number of employed persons in the United States making the federal minimum wage or less is under 3% of all workers. In 1979, it was over 13%.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2017/home.htm#:~:text=The percentage of hourly paid,collected on a regular basis.


Minimum wage exists for the purpose of entering the workforce when you're 16-20 years old and have no skillset or experience. Very, very few jobs pay minimum wage. If you're 40 years old and making minimum, you dun fucked up your life somewhere and you're just taking that position away from an ambitious young person who is trying to get started.
The federal minimum wage is $7.25, so that's a low bar to clear. The percentage of Americans making less than $15 an hour is 28% (in 2019).

The average age of a worker who would benefit from raising the minimum wage is 35. 88% of people who would benefit from raising the minimum wage are 20 years old or older. 36% are 40 or older. 28% have children.

You should probably spend more time reading up on the issue and less time judging people.
 
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Hanafuda

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The federal minimum wage is $7.25, so that's a low bar to clear. The percentage of Americans making less than $15 an hour is 28% (in 2019).

The average age of a worker who would benefit from raising the minimum wage is 35. 88% of people who would benefit from raising the minimum wage are 20 years old or older. 36% are 40 or older. 28% have children.

You should probably spend more time reading up on the issue and less time judging people.


I don't care how old the people making minimum wage are. I care that they make up less than 2.5% of the workforce. I care that they are in jobs that are not intended, never have been intended, for breadwinners. Those jobs are intended for dependents who are just getting into the workforce with no experience, no skills. If a 35 year old person is in that predicament because they spent the last 17 years in some illicit or unmarketable occupation, that's their problem not everyone else's. Bad choices have consequences.
 

Xzi

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I care that they are in jobs that are not intended, never have been intended, for breadwinners. Those jobs are intended for dependents who are just getting into the workforce with no experience, no skills. If a 35 year old person is in that predicament because they spent the last 17 years in some illicit or unmarketable occupation, that's their problem not everyone else's. Bad choices have consequences.
Upward mobility becomes more and more scarce in this country with every passing decade. Basically you're telling people they should've climbed a nonexistent ladder when they had the chance. If you're born poor in Bumfuck, Kentucky, odds are high that you can make all the right decisions in life and still end up working fast food in your 50s or 60s.

Additionally, as long as it remains $7.25, people can be making quite a bit more than minimum wage and still fall below the poverty line. If you don't want their wages to continue being subsidized by your tax dollars, I suggest you start demanding corporations pay their workers fairly. Fast food jobs are some of the hardest there are, they demand much more productivity than the vast majority of six-figure desk jobs.
 

Hanafuda

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Upward mobility becomes more and more scarce in this country with every passing decade.

If by upward mobility you mean a gradual increase in income level from entry pay at a young age to comfortable income levels at retirement (which would be the only way it could be relevant to this discussion), then I disagree. If that were really true, the percentage of workers making minimum wage would be higher now than in 1979. Instead, it's dramatically lower.

Alternatively if by upward mobility you mean moving from lower middle class $50-$80k a year to upper middle class $500-$750k a year in one generation, then yeah it might be more difficult now. Might be. That's what I've always understood upward mobility to mean. But if so, that's a different discussion that has nothing to do with minimum wage.
 
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Xzi

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If that were really true, the percentage of workers making minimum wage would be higher now than in 1979. Instead, it's dramatically lower.
Minimum wage in 1979 was somewhat tolerable still. In 2021 you can be making three dollars more than minimum and still be living out of a tent or homeless shelter.

If by upward mobility you mean moving from lower middle class $50-$80k a year to upper middle class $500-$750k a year in one generation, then yeah it might be more difficult now. Might be. That's what I've always understood upward mobility to mean. But if so, that's a different discussion that has nothing to do with minimum wage.
It has everything to do with minimum wage. Our parents and grandparents were able to build up savings while working minimum wage jobs. Now they don't even cover all of the necessities, let alone allow you to save up for a house or a car.
 
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Hanafuda

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It has everything to do with minimum wage. Our parents and grandparents were able to build up savings while working minimum wage jobs. Now they don't even cover all of the necessities, let alone allow you to save up for a house or a car.

Saving up for a house or car while making minimum wage? Sure, a p.o.s. used car maybe, if you were still living with mom and dad and didn't have any other expenses.

Don't forget you're talking to someone in his mid 50's. I was there in that past you're talking about.
 
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Xzi

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Saving up for a house or car while making minimum wage? Sure, a p.o.s. used car maybe, if you were still living with mom and dad and didn't have any other expenses.
If we extrapolate the minimum wage of the 1950s to today, it would be about $22/hour when accounting for inflation and increases in productivity (not-so-coincidentally that's also about the minimum in France). That's definitely enough to save for a car, and not just an old beater.
 

notimp

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Wikipedia (citing the US Dept of Labor as the source) says the minimum wage buying power peaked in 1968, when the minimum of $1.60 was equivalent to $11.76 in 2019.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States
Lets add, that this was done, because globalization also reduced the cost of goods and services, so people could be convinced, that they were still participating in growth and experiencing prosperity. Issue, that doesnt hold true for all sectors (housing, ..), and it only works, when global trade is uninterrupted and active.

And the issue still remains, that the average american wasnt getting their share of productivity growth.

So when the first bigger crisis hit, interest rates were slashed, and most of the Service economy now worked to keep consumption up. Which doesnt bode well for the later parts of their lives - if 'nothing changes'.

So as people come to realize what happened, you need avenues of structural growth, that are open to them, or they will revolt.

Trump (rest his simple minded soul) tried to convince everyone - that tax cuts would fix the issue and bring in more entrepreneurial spirit -- aaaand they did nothing. Partly because he mostly cut taxes of the rich, and when he reduced corporate taxes, they took the money and started share buyback programs and stock investing - which did nothing for people.

Reason? There was no clear path in what to invest within the US that seemed viable and logical - long term. Other countries were growing faster, producing most of your goods cheaper, and you had ready made plans, on how to bring them closer to your level - using the tech that already existed.

By "closing your borders" that problem doesnt go away. By 'ruining/slowing down' internatinonal trade flows - it gets somewhat mitigated (supply chains become smaller), but the issue here is, that the international trading system is so interconnected by now - that its hard to hurt the other side you might want to draw up tarrifs against, but not yourself in the process - in the reaction that follows, and unforseen consequences.

In addition, if companies are forced to restructure their supply chains, they will do so looking at other ways to cut cost - so automation, digitization, ...

So the answer in some way or form has to be to 'create the next new thing' and make it something only the US / developed world can do - and make it something that most of your people can benefit from.

The obvious answer to that one is 'infrastructure investments', as it can be low skilled, but enables better synergies for the high skilled work (everyone has internet, roads that work, ...). And invest in education at the same time.

Issue - that costs all the moneys. So the state has to do it, and do it through stuctural investments. (Kicking the puck on who pays for it further down the road.)

But you need it to foster the climate, where the Investor class starts to invest in the US again - otherwise, their growth potential elsewhere in the world is always bigger. But if you create the next big thing... That can then be scaled all over the world and...

But for that to actually work (become operational), you ideally need a growth market. And the US has them in Mexico and now in a more active trading relationship with india.

Now this means, that in the long term - they will take the easier to produce parts of the supplychain again - and you will be forced to innovate to stay ahead. But the growth potential is there, the investment climate is there, US population isnt declining as fast as others, which is a positive...

Last point - so while the state is paying for the infrastructure projects (lower skill level), the question remains, how fast production of your new industries will be moved to lets say Mexico and India, and the answer here is - fast, because - there it has bigger growth potential (can produced cheaper, so more people can buy it - which increases your profit) - so at some point, we have to talk about redistribution.

You need to talk about redistribution from another angle as well - and that is, that more complex jobs, actually profit from people that have to worry less about their environments and future - so thinking about universal health care actually might be more economic for the US, because "grafting" gets you less far, than thinking.

And if you dont reign in the companies, that literally havent payed for productivity increases inside the US for 30 years - they will simply repeat it, and eff you over again.. ;) To be fair to them, productivity increases in the US also - somewhat became less of a part of human work dividend, and more and more were produced by machines, or in foreign contreys - where investing simply promised higher returns.

So that you need to tackle as well.

The Biden administration does all that btw. - and pretty much all economists right now tell them, that its the right thing to do.
--

How you do it in countries that arent as well off as the US (Demographics, country to develop at your borders, low energy costs, ...) is the more difficult question to answer.
 
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Xzi

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Wikipedia (citing the US Dept of Labor as the source) says the minimum wage buying power peaked in 1968, when the minimum of $1.60 was equivalent to $11.76 in 2019.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States
That's not accounting for inflation or increases in productivity, but at least you're acknowledging that the current federal minimum should be at least five dollars higher. There were also far more/better government assistance programs in the 50s and 60s.

Even if everything had always been as shitty as it is now, that's no reason to say, "nah let's not improve anything for anybody even though we can."
 
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Lacius

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I don't care how old the people making minimum wage are. I care that they make up less than 2.5% of the workforce. I care that they are in jobs that are not intended, never have been intended, for breadwinners. Those jobs are intended for dependents who are just getting into the workforce with no experience, no skills. If a 35 year old person is in that predicament because they spent the last 17 years in some illicit or unmarketable occupation, that's their problem not everyone else's. Bad choices have consequences.
The percentage of Americans making less than $15 an hour is 28%
 
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Hanafuda

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That's not accounting for inflation or increases in productivity, but at least you're acknowledging that the current federal minimum should be at least five dollars higher. There were also far more/better government assistance programs in the 50s and 60s.

Even if everything had always been as shitty as it is now, that's no reason to say, "nah let's not improve anything for anybody even though we can."

What I'm quite willing to acknowledge is that the buying power of the minimum wage should be at least five dollars higher. Yes, sure, hear hear! It should be. I just don't think increasing the number will accomplish anything but price inflation, and a gradual adjustment in the value of the dollar and wages across the board, until we return to status quo or worse. The buying power of the minimum wage in 1968 wasn't higher because of some arbitrary dollar figure - it was higher because it was 1968. US manufacturing and productivity was top of the world, and single income blue collar household was the norm, and we were still on the gold standard.

You can increase the minimum wage to 15 dollars, and it wont take long until the McDonalds meal that currently costs $7.25 will cost ... you guessed it, 15 dollars. The person who is making 15 dollars now will expect their income to double, or else why did they bother climbing up from minimum to 15?? The person making 30 will not be happy, because someone who was making 15 yesterday now makes the same 30 bucks he does. So all wages adjust upward, but with diminishing effect. The end result, after several years for it to settle, for manufacturers and retailers to adjust their prices to the new labor costs, is the poor will still be just as poor, the middle/working-class will be a little poorer than they are now, and the rich will still have it all. It's a rigged game and they're not going to give up anything ... just blow smoke up your ass with number games.

I know, you're gonna say that won't happen. You'll say there've been studies and there are economists who swear the economy won't simply adjust and compensate. So if that's true, what do you think would happen if we change the minimum wage to, let's say $100/hr? Or since it's $7.25 now, how about $725/hr?? What happens when the lowest paid person makes $725/hr? Is everyone happy making $725 an hour, same as the lowest paid guy, even the doctors, lawyers, engineers? What does a company like Wendy's do when they have to pay their employees $725/hr? Still think there'll be a dollar menu? Maybe there'll be a hundred dollar menu.
 

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