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Joe Biden is now officially the 46th President of the United States of America

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Lacius

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Selective immigration is only one of many reasons listed why the stereotype turns out to ring true in certain (not all - South Asians seem to be the odd ones out, immigrants from India and China lead the charge) groups of Asian immigrants. Cultural differences is another, and given the fact that the same emphasis on educational achievement can be seen in modern China and India today, I'm going to lean on that as the root cause. It is not uncommon to see Chinese parents in particular putting their children under intense, often unreasonable pressure to perform. That does translate to better outcomes in the education system, however it's rather detrimental to mental health (given the suicide rates in those parts of the world). It's a culture that's laser-focused on success, both domestically and in the United States.
I definitely did not say selective immigration is the sole reason for the model Asian American minority myth, but it's a large component. You can see my previous posts for other components to the myth.

This study is almost 20 years old and doesn't reflect the current job market. That's not to say that there isn't progress to be made, however as of today minority hires make up the bulk of all new hires (25-54). It appears to me that the tide is turning around as-is. The job market is cyclical - in order to record a new hiring one of two things needs to happen, a new job needs to be created *or* an old employee needs to retire to make room for a new one. Right now we're seeing both a wave of retirements and (up until the pandemic) an economic boom, so the trend is likely to continue (unless inflation catches up to us).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/minorities-ages-25-to-54-make-up-most-new-hires-in-workforce.html
The worse the economy, the more the racial discrimination, since there is increased competition for jobs. Various studies, including more contemporaneous studies, show that in economies where there's more job competition, people of color have increased barriers to job acquisition. Studies in 2009 and 2016 show the same thing (people of color were 50% less likely to receive a job interview solely on the basis of race) as the 2004 study I mentioned earlier. A 2015 study showed that people of color had to graduate from elite private colleges in order to have the same job prospects as a white person who graduated from a state university. When these facts are repeatable across the broad economic system, it's a systemic problem.

I'm of the opinion that the government should do absolutely nothing in terms of who private companies hire and for what reasons.
We know your views on government intervention. You've said previously that you don't even think it should be illegal for a private business to refuse service to an entire group of people (race, sexuality, etc.). We don't need to rehash that conversation, but it's safe to say you care more about libertarian ideology than whether or not systemic racism is a problem. You seem to care more about a business' right to discriminate on the basis of race than you care about the right of the person to not be systematically oppressed on the basis of race.

The qualifications to do the job are the only relevant factor in hiring. I'm not particularly interested in what skin colour an employee is, I do care about whether or not they can help me with my query quickly and reliably.
If you think merit should be the sole criteria for whether or not a person is hired for a job, then you should be outraged by the systemic racism I've outlined previously.

I consider affirmative action or diversity quotas as explicitly racist in nature, freedom of association should always trump social engineering.
If a group makes up 16% of the population, for example, then one would expect 16% of the employees at a company in that area to also be 16% that group. Since, across the board, that number falls far below 16%, then there's a problem. There are a lot of variables, but it largely comes down to access to quality education, socioeconomic status ("cost of poverty" can make it harder to get work), discrimination, etc. One of the ways to solve that problem is affirmative action. Given these facts and the fact that Black people in this country continue to have disadvantages stemming from having slave ancestors, affirmative action is a great way to right these wrongs. There's literally no reason why a group that makes up approximately 16% of the population, for example, should not make up 16% or more of a given workforce. Affirmative action helps mitigate the consequences of systemic discrimination and biases, and it helps give education and wealth to families that otherwise haven't had it before, which will perpetuate a cycle in which they can pass the wealth on to the next generation and give them some of the same advantages a lot of white people have had for hundreds of years.

Nobody said changes in hiring practices would take place instantaneously, they should be organic, and for the most part have been organic.
I suggest looking into the history of the Civil Rights Movement. Changes in hiring practices were not "organic." They were the result of an organized movement towards racial justice in this country.

Your distinction between whether or not something should be "organic" seems completely arbitrary. In other words, there's no reason I'm aware of why it should be, unless you're arbitrarily clinging to libertarian ideals that aren't actually conducive to well being.

As long as there is *no law* that encourages discrimination based on race, I am perfectly happy concluding that any discrimination that does take place isn't systemic, as in, a part of an organised system.
See my previous point about the economic system in this country being systematically racist. It doesn't take a government for something to be systemically racist.

People's biases are what people's biases are - businesses that refuse to hire well-qualified employees based on skin colour alone will inevitably fall behind those businesses that do not, their hiring pools are smaller (by their own making).
That's nice to believe, but that's not necessarily true, particularly when there's a surplus of job applicants relative to actual jobs available.

One thing that has helped close the gap in the UK and is worth emulating is the standardisation of job application forms. Here on the other side of the pond including any identifying information like spelling out the race of an applicant or attaching photographs is a disqualifying factor, it's not practiced specifically to avoid biased selection. The initial picks are chosen solely on the basis of qualifications and the cover letter, which is great.
Does that include names? Because we've already been over studies where only the names were different, and that's all it took for consequential racial biases to occur.

I'm generally in favor of the standardized application form, however. Factors like race, previous incarceration, etc. should come up later, if at all.

I'm only interested in conclusions that are data-driven and not decades old. I'm also thoroughly uninterested in works that explain the current situation away with the specter of "systemic racism" - either they can point to a policy that is in law here and now that's holding minorities back or they can't. With that being said, you can shoot me a PM with a bibliography and I can give it a cursory read - I'm rather familiar with the subject, I'm simply highly critical of some of the conclusions, particularly when I can come up with 20 better explanations each time the ghost of racism is mentioned.
Evidence suggests that "black communities" (I still can't understand how that's a "community", I'm against grouping people by skin colour on principle) are heavily *underpoliced* when taking into account the levels of crime in those areas. If there's a symptom of "systemic racism" at all, it's that. Certain parts of town are "not worth policing" to an extent that would generate a measurable decrease in crime rates, which in turn would result in better outcomes for young people who live there, including black youths. 131+ people have been killed in Chicago this year already, and it's only April. If I was a hypothetical mayor of a city like this, there would be a cop on every street corner going forward until people stop dying needlessly in drive-by shootings. I can't imagine being able to focus on fulfilling my potential when there's a good chance I'll get randomly shot - not by the police, but by my neighbour.
You cannot argue you're interested in conclusions that are data-driven while ignoring the data-driven conclusion that black communities are overpoliced.

There's an excellent Wikipedia article here on the different barriers people of color face at each stage of the criminal justice process. I'm honestly not sure why I'm talking about it here when this information is freely available to the public.
 

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I definitely did not say selective immigration is the sole reason for the model Asian American minority myth, but it's a large component. You can see my previous posts for other components to the myth.
It can only be called a myth if it's not true. I can't believe I have to explain this, but dragons are mythical creatures because they don't actually exist. There is an actual, measurable difference in median income and educational outcomes among asians when compared to other racial groups in America (not ethnic, since the term "asian" is an umbrella term for many ethnicities).
The worse the economy, the more the racial discrimination, since there is increased competition for jobs. Various studies, including more contemporaneous studies, show that in economies where there's more job competition, people of color have increased barriers to job acquisition. Studies in 2009 and 2016 show the same thing (people of color were 50% less likely to receive a job interview solely on the basis of race) as the 2004 study I mentioned earlier. A 2015 study showed that people of color had to graduate from elite private colleges in order to have the same job prospects as a white person who graduated from a state university. When these facts are repeatable across the broad economic system, it's a systemic problem.
I'll have to look into that. It's entirely possible that this is the case, however it's not the government's fault, and I only consider regulation from on-high to be "systemic", as in, a part of an organised system with defined rules. People's personal biases don't play into that and vary wildly between individuals. On the flip side, minority-owned businesses are far more likely to hire minority staff, particularly within their own minority - tribal thinking is expected behaviour here.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-sep-18-fi-11575-story.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommyw...businesses-more-likely-to-hire-diverse-teams/

As far as the current job market is concerned, we're going through a bit of a watershed moment - various industries are explicitly looking for minority applicants.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-race-hiring-idUSKCN25F2SY
We know your views on government intervention. You've said previously that you don't even think it should be illegal for a private business to refuse service to an entire group of people (race, sexuality, etc.). We don't need to rehash that conversation, but it's safe to say you care more about libertarian ideology than whether or not systemic racism is a problem. You seem to care more about a business' right to discriminate on the basis of race than you care about the right of the person to not be systematically oppressed on the basis of race.
I will happily admit that I care more about people being equal under the law than about people's own biases - I am not in the business of changing people's minds on things and I don't think the government should ever be in a position to force private business owners to hire certain employees over others.
If you think merit should be the sole criteria for whether or not a person is hired for a job, then you should be outraged by the systemic racism I've outlined previously.
I consider merit as the sole criterion for hiring, I also simultaneously value freedom, particularly freedom of association and freedom to self-determine. I accept the fact that people have innate biases and take my business elsewhere - I won't force anyone to change their hiring practices, the market will.
If a group makes up 16% of the population, for example, then one would expect 16% of the employees at a company in that area to also be 16% that group. Since, across the board, that number falls far below 16%, then there's a problem. There are a lot of variables, but it largely comes down to access to quality education, socioeconomic status ("cost of poverty" can make it harder to get work), discrimination, etc. One of the ways to solve that problem is affirmative action. Given these facts and the fact that Black people in this country continue to have disadvantages stemming from having slave ancestors, affirmative action is a great way to right these wrongs. There's literally no reason why a group that makes up approximately 16% of the population, for example, should not make up 16% or more of a given workforce. Affirmative action helps mitigate the consequences of systemic discrimination and biases, and it helps give education and wealth to families that otherwise haven't had it before, which will perpetuate a cycle in which they can pass the wealth on to the next generation and give them some of the same advantages a lot of white people have had for hundreds of years.
No, I wouldn't expect that at all, because that 16% of population is, in and out of itself, very diverse, not to mention vastly different than the remaining 84% we're comparing it to. For instance, when I look at an IT firm, I don't expect it to have 16% black employees - I expect it to have a similar percentage of black employees as whatever the percentage of black people graduating with IT degrees is. That's significantly more representative then pretending that this is an apples to apples comparison. If this 16% has overall lower educational outcomes, or they pursue different degrees on average, I absolutely expect them to have lower representation in a certain field. If I have a basket of apples and a basket of pears, and I make an apple pie, I put zero pears in it - it's an apple pie. If the number of black graduates with a degree I'm looking for is low, I can't hire them in large numbers, let alone hire them in numbers representative of the general population. This is the same reason why so many doctors in America are of asian descent - 17.1% of practitioners identify as asian while they only constitute 5.6% of fen pop. You call that overrepresentation, I call that different educational preferences.
I suggest looking into the history of the Civil Rights Movement. Changes in hiring practices were not "organic." They were the result of an organized movement towards racial justice in this country.

Your distinction between whether or not something should be "organic" seems completely arbitrary. In other words, there's no reason I'm aware of why it should be, unless you're arbitrarily clinging to libertarian ideals that aren't actually conducive to well being.
We already had this conversation before - I'm familiar. I don't care about "policies conducive to well-being" if they come at a cost of individual freedoms. My "libertarian ideals" are indeed more important - it's "give me liberty or give me death" for a reason. Whether those ideals themselves are "conducive to well-being" is in the eye of the beholder - in my estimation they've worked splendidly over the course of the last couple centuries.
See my previous point about the economic system in this country being systematically racist. It doesn't take a government for something to be systemically racist.
In order for something to be systemic, you have to demonstrate that there isn't just an established pattern, but a system of agreed upon rules. You would have to prove, to me, with numbers and data, that employers are in cahoots colluding not to hire minority workers, and that the end result doesn't spring from individual biases every person has one way or the other, but from a system built with purpose in order to oppress. That's how high my bar is. You could meet that standard in the 20th century, you can't possibly meet it now, so there can be very little common ground in this discussion - I reject your premise.
 

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It can only be called a myth if it's not true. I can't believe I have to explain this, but dragons are mythical creatures because they don't actually exist. There is an actual, measurable difference in median income and educational outcomes among asians when compared to other racial groups in America (not ethnic, since the term "asian" is an umbrella term for many ethnicities).

I'll have to look into that. It's entirely possible that this is the case, however it's not the government's fault, and I only consider regulation from on-high to be "systemic", as in, a part of an organised system with defined rules. People's personal biases don't play into that and vary wildly between individuals. On the flip side, minority-owned businesses hire predominantly black staff - tribal thinking is expected behaviour here.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-sep-18-fi-11575-story.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommyw...businesses-more-likely-to-hire-diverse-teams/

As far as the current job market is concerned, we're going through a bit of a watershed moment - various industries are explicitly looking for minority applicants.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-race-hiring-idUSKCN25F2SY

I will happily admit that I care more about people being equal under the law than about people's own biases - I am not in the business of changing people's minds on things and I don't think the government should ever be in a position to force private business owners to hire certain employees over others.

I consider merit as the sole criterion for hiring, I also simultaneously value freedom, particularly freedom of association and freedom to self-determine. I accept the fact that people have innate biases and take my business elsewhere - I won't force anyone to change their hiring practices, the market will.
No, I wouldn't expect that at all, because that 16% of population is, in and out of itself, very diverse, not to mention vastly different than the remaining 84% we're comparing it to. For instance, when I look at an IT firm, I don't expect it to have 16% black employees - I expect it to have a similar percentage of black employees as whatever the percentage of black people graduating with IT degrees is. That's significantly more representative then pretending that this is an apples to apples comparison. If this 16% has overall lower educational outcomes, I absolutely expect them to have lower representation in a certain field. If I have a basket of apples and a basket of pears, and I make an apple pie, I put zero pears in it - it's an apple pie. If the number of black graduates with a degree I'm looking for is low, I can't hire them, let alone hire them in numbers representative of the general population. This is the same reason why so many doctors in America are of asian descent - 17.1% of practitioners identify as asian while they only constitute 5.6% of fen pop. You call that overrepresentation, I call that different educational preferences.
We already had this conversation before - I'm familiar. I don't care about "policies conducive to well-being" if they come at a cost of individual freedoms. My "libertarian ideals" are indeed more important - it's "give me liberty or give me death" for a reason. Whether those ideals themselves are "conducive to well-being" is in the eye of the beholder - in my estimation they've worked splendidly over the course of the last couple centuries.
In order for something to be systemic, you have to demonstrate that there isn't just an established pattern, but a system of agrees upon rules. You would have to prove, to me, with numbers and data, that employers are in cahoots colluding not to hire minority workers, and that the end result doesn't spring from individual biases every person has one way or the other, but from a system built with purpose in order to oppress. That's how high my bar is. You could meet that standard in the 20th century, you can't possibly meet it now, so there can be very little common ground in this discussion - I reject your premise.
I got tired of quoting everything I was responding to. Hopefully it's obvious which parts of your post my comments are directed at.

The Model Minority Myth is indeed a myth:
“Since 1965, some Asian-American immigrants have come to the U.S. under certain immigration preference categories that favor professional skills and training,” Eliza Noh, an associate professor at California State University, Fullerton, said in an email. “Those groups tend to already have educational training and economic resources, which they invest in their children’s education. Their access to social and economic capital is what fuels academic achievement.”

Asian-Americans — immigrants and their descendants who come from the Far East, Southeast Asia and the Indian subcontinent — account for about 6 percent of the U.S. population. Six groups make up the majority of this population, including people of Chinese, Filipino, Indian, Vietnamese, Korean and Japanese origin.

These highly-educated immigrants build so-called “ethnic capital“, which results in programs such as tutoring and college-prep courses that build their children’s academic achievement.

“Besides being able to spend more money on their children’s curricular and extra-curricular activities, such as tutoring and academic clubs,” Noh said, “middle-class parents can pass on their knowledge of how to be successful in academia, such as study skills, professional networking, and navigating educational institutions.”

https://blogs.voanews.com/all-about...icans-are-the-most-educated-group-in-america/

Since the 1960s, the model minority myth has been used by conservatives and racists to claim that Black people have no one to blame but themselves for poverty and social disadvantages. It's cliche at this point in the year 2021, and the only thing that disappoints me more than your use of it is your continued insistence that it's benign.

I'd have a problem with minority-owned businesses hiring mostly minorities if they weren't facing much larger systemic disadvantages across the rest of society. Until that day comes, I don't have a problem with it. People of color should grab whatever advantages they can to get ahead and break the cycle.

It's a good thing if businesses are intentionally seeking to hire more people of color. Let me know when the data shows that the social disadvantages people of color face have finally been eliminated.

I don't think the government should be in the business of changing people's minds. It should be in the business of making sure people are treated equally. If a business serves the public, it needs to serve the public. A business that discriminates against people of color, for example, should not be allowed to do so. In addition to being the morally correct thing, a business should not be allowed to exist and benefit from the government's existence when many of the people paying taxes to that government are the people of color being discriminated by that business. You say

If Black people make up 16% of the population but make up less than 16% of people who graduated with IT degrees, that's a problem. Affirmative action, both in schools and in business, can help to remedy that too.

You say you don't care about "policies conducive to well-being" if they come at a cost of individual freedoms, but you're the one ignoring the individual freedoms of people of color, whether it's having equal job opportunities, having the freedom to not be discriminated against, and having the freedom to not have one's tax dollars go towards things that allow the racist business to exist in the first place.
 
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I got tired of quoting everything I was responding to. Hopefully it's obvious which parts of your post my comments are directed at.

The Model Minority Myth is indeed a myth:


https://blogs.voanews.com/all-about...icans-are-the-most-educated-group-in-america/

Since the 1960s, the model minority myth has been used by conservatives and racists to claim that Black people have no one to blame but themselves for poverty and social disadvantages. It's cliche at this point in the year 2021, and the only thing that disappoints me more than your use of it is your continued insistence that it's benign.
It's not a myth. Asians have higher median incomes and better educational outcomes. You can say that it's a stereotype since it generalises an entire diverse group of people by presenting characteristics that don't necessarily apply to each and every asian, but you cannot call it a "myth". Even Wikipedia chose the term "stereotype" over "myth", and I agree with that choice of phrasing.
I'd have a problem with minority-owned businesses hiring mostly minorities if they weren't facing much larger systemic disadvantages across the rest of society. Until that day comes, I don't have a problem with it. People of color should grab whatever advantages they can to get ahead and break the cycle.

It's a good thing if businesses are intentionally seeking to hire more people of color. Let me know when the data shows that the social disadvantages people of color face have finally been eliminated.
So you're okay with discrimination, asterisk. I'm not okay with discrimination, period. Businesses that discriminate based on race should fail on the market, I explicitly choose who I give my business to and avoid businesses that do not align with my beliefs, I recommend that people do the same. The difference here is that you support using the long arm of the government to force people into non-consensual business arrangements whereas I believe it should have nothing to do with who private individuals hire in their private businesses that they've established and own. You could make that argument in terms of hiring for governmental agencies - the government needs to practice the equality that it preaches. Individuals don't - they have a right to have preferences, even if you don't like those preferences. It's up to you to decide whether you want to give them business or not based on those preferences.

I don't think the government should be in the business of changing people's minds. It should be in the business of making sure people are treated equally. If a business serves the public, it needs to serve the public. A business that discriminates against people of color, for example, should not be allowed to do so. In addition to being the morally correct thing, a business should not be allowed to exist and benefit from the government's existence when many of the people paying taxes to that government are the people of color being discriminated by that business.
It's the job of the government to ensure that everyone is treated equally under the law. It is *not* the job of the government to tell me, or anybody else, how to treat other people. I would also argue that the government benefits from the existence of a business more so than the business benefits from the existence of a government - businesses would continue to operate in the absence of a government, the country could not operate in the absence of business. That's neither here nor there though, the government cannot arbitrarily prohibit its citizens from exercising their civil liberties, one of which is participating in commerce.
If Black people make up 16% of the population but make up less than 16% of people who graduated with IT degrees, that's a problem. Affirmative action, both in schools and in business, can help to remedy that too.
Why? Maybe they prefer different majors on average? Maybe they prefer to pursue a trade instead? Maybe they choose to enter the job market as soon as they can and don't pursue higher education to the same extent? People aren't a spaghetti factory, they're not cut with a cookie cutter either. How can you claim to support diversity when you want every group to behave the same? That seems counter-intuitive to me.
You say you don't care about "policies conducive to well-being" if they come at a cost of individual freedoms, but you're the one ignoring the individual freedoms of people of color, whether it's having equal job opportunities, having the freedom to not be discriminated against, and having the freedom to not have one's tax dollars go towards things that allow the racist business to exist in the first place.
Those two things are not freedoms, there are no specific rights that would define them.

You do not have a right to never, ever be discriminated against based on a set of criteria chosen by your interlocutor - it would be asinine to claim otherwise. The inverse is true - you do have a right to engage or not engage with another person and the government cannot force you one way or the other. The same right that allows a racist to discriminate against you also allows you to discriminate against a racist. Any and all legislation that violates people's ability to choose who they associate with is wrong-headed and an imposition on freedom.

You also don't have the right to pick and choose what your tax dollars are spent on (we should be so lucky!). You don't have influence on how others perceive you, you have *some* influence on how the government allocates resources - you do so by voting.

We're getting a bit circular here and I'd like to return to the subject at hand, lest we get too far off into the weeds. I am (genuinely) interested in some of your choice literature, I would appreciate the bibliography you've mentioned. I make an effort to know both sides of an argument before taking a side, and that necessitates ingesting data points that may go against my preconceived notions.
 
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If "the system" is built for the benefit of whites then the white supremacists in charge didn't do a very good job.
I'd say they did a fine job considering all the reforms and re-written laws it took just to get us to this point. A lot of police still act like their primary job is catching runaway slaves.

ssdsmu63v6t61.jpg
 

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I'd say they did a fine job considering all the reforms and re-written laws it took just to get us to this point. A lot of police still act like their primary job is catching runaway slaves.

View attachment 258360
If your response to an officer facing due process is burning down your own town and rampant theft, perhaps the police is in the right chasing you for doing so.
 

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If your response to an officer facing due process is burning down your own town and rampant theft, perhaps the police is in the right chasing you for doing so.
Most backwards logic ever. "Murder is an appropriate response to property damage, but property damage is not an appropriate response to murder."
 

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Most backwards logic ever. "Murder is an appropriate response to property damage, but property damage is not an appropriate response to murder."
Property damage is not an appropriate form of protest and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. People who engage in criminal acts under the guise of righteous anger are disgusting, they're exploiting a tragedy for their own self-interest while simultaneously spreading destruction within the very same neighbourhoods they live in - the only people they're setting back are themselves.
 

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Property damage is not an appropriate form of protest and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. People who engage in criminal acts under the guise of righteous anger are disgusting, they're exploiting a tragedy for their own self-interest while simultaneously spreading destruction within the very same neighbourhoods they live in - the only people they're setting back are themselves.
It's the inevitable result of feeling powerless. Due process has yet to deliver true justice to any murderous police officer, so it's hard to blame people who dismissed it before Chauvin's trial even began. And then cops murdered yet another person while it was still ongoing. Before worrying about prosecuting property damage to the "fullest extent of the law," there needs to be some proof that murder will be prosecuted to that extent as well.
 

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Property damage is not an appropriate form of protest and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. People who engage in criminal acts under the guise of righteous anger are disgusting, they're exploiting a tragedy for their own self-interest while simultaneously spreading destruction within the very same neighbourhoods they live in - the only people they're setting back are themselves.
People of color are literally being killed, despite being unarmed and nonviolent, and you're clutching your pearls at property damage. Lol.
 

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It's the inevitable result of feeling powerless. Due process has yet to deliver true justice to any murderous police officer, so it's hard to blame people who dismissed it before Chauvin's trial even began. And then cops murdered yet another person while it was still ongoing. Before worrying about prosecuting property damage to the "fullest extent of the law," there needs to be some proof that murder will be prosecuted to that extent as well.
This isn't a discussion I would consider to be worth having. Criminals should be arrested and shipped straight to jail, you're not going to convince me that two wrongs make a right. You do not get a carte blanche to rob other people or set their property on fire because some guy who happens to be the same colour as you happened to be killed by the police. Laws don't cease to exist pending a trial.
 
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Xzi

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Criminals should be arrested and shipped straight to jail, you're not going to convince me that two wrongs make a right.
Nor am I trying to, I'm only pointing out the level of corruption that must exist within a criminal justice system which hands out longer sentences for property damage than it does for murder. If police are going to be allowed to continue operating as a de facto gang in some areas of the country, nobody should be surprised when other gangs start waging a form of asymmetrical warfare against them. Put simply: if our law enforcement officers are not beholden to the law, the whole system becomes vestigial at best, a detriment and a threat to Americans at worst.
 
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Foxi4

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People of color are literally being killed, despite being unarmed and nonviolent, and you're clutching your pearls at property damage. Lol.
Nor am I trying to, I'm only pointing out the level of corruption that must exist within a criminal justice system which hands out longer sentences for property damage than it does for murder. If police are going to be allowed to continue operating as a de facto gang in some areas of the country, nobody should be surprised when other gangs start waging a form of asymmetrical warfare against them. Put simply: if our law enforcement officers are not beholden to the law, the whole system becomes vestigial at best, a detriment and a threat to Americans at worst.
I clutch pearls over property damage (particularly private property) regardless of the circumstances and I let due process play out. I am all for holding police accountable, however if there is something detrimental to the average American, I'd say groups of violent criminals setting their cities on fire and looting their workplaces, potentially putting business owners out of business and their workforce out of a job, are pretty high on the list. I will not be surprised if food deserts will become more prevalent and unemployment will increase in areas affected by these riots - I wouldn't open or operate a business in an area where it is liable to be destroyed next time a police officer screws up, and if I were an insurer, I wouldn't insure it either.
 
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Xzi

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I am all for holding police accountable, however if there is something detrimental to the average American, I'd say groups of violent criminals setting their cities on fire and looting their workplaces, potentially putting business owners out of business and their workforce out of a job.
This is all within the scope of police activity too, and in most cases there's no way to seek reimbursement when they raid the wrong house or trash a business while chasing a criminal. Just another example of "rules for thee, not for me."

I will not be surprised if food deserts won't become more prevalent and unemployment will increase in areas affected by these riots - I wouldn't open or operate a business in an area where it is liable to be destroyed next time a police officer screws up, and if I were an insurer, I wouldn't insure it either.
If police keep fucking up with this kind of frequency, those same risks are going to apply to every area of the country. It's not like the backlash to Floyd's murder was contained to that one city/state, after all. Obviously then the better solution is to ensure police fuck up less through massive reforms and more extensive training, rather than constantly brace ourselves to deal with the fallout from their frequent fuck-ups.
 
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Lacius

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I clutch pearls over property damage (particularly private property) regardless of the circumstances and I let due process play out. I am all for holding police accountable, however if there is something detrimental to the average American, I'd say groups of violent criminals setting their cities on fire and looting their workplaces, potentially putting business owners out of business and their workforce out of a job, are pretty high on the list. I will not be surprised if food deserts will become more prevalent and unemployment will increase in areas affected by these riots - I wouldn't open or operate a business in an area where it is liable to be destroyed next time a police officer screws up, and if I were an insurer, I wouldn't insure it either.
Could you say "black lives matter" for me real quick?
 

Plasmaster09

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Something something "a riot the language of the unheard" something something MLK quote something something "our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay" blahblahblah

Time is a flat circle
betcha ten imaginary bucks that if any of these guys is actually on the receiving end of any significant life-impacting discrimination, either they'll suddenly turn around and hindsight-fallacy into believing they were always decent human beings capable of empathy... or they'll somehow inverse no true scotsman into believing that they're the only case that actually does not deserve the bad things happening to them completely beyond their control
bonus points if they protest and do so in as violent a manner as they can think of... because that's what they've been brainwashed into thinking all protesting is
 

Seliph

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betcha ten imaginary bucks that if any of these guys is actually on the receiving end of any significant life-impacting discrimination, either they'll suddenly turn around and hindsight-fallacy into believing they were always decent human beings capable of empathy... or they'll somehow inverse no true scotsman into believing that they're the only case that actually does not deserve the bad things happening to them completely beyond their control
bonus points if they protest and do so in as violent a manner as they can think of... because that's what they've been brainwashed into thinking all protesting is
It's insane because I've seen 30+ states (including the one I live in) across this dumbass country write up legislation (not all of it has passed or been voted on yet) that is discriminatory again me and an active threat to my wellbeing. To act like systemic discrimination doesn't exist and to say that we shouldn't pursue means of protest against discrimination that have been used for centuries and have worked for centuries is absurd and deeply insulting.

When the government won't listen, we make them listen. If they deny us democracy, we create our own democracy. It's an idea this country was supposedly founded on but apparently some of our country's biggest defenders don't believe in it unless it minorly inconveniences them (like having to wear a mask).

In addition, while cutting public school arts education funds by 70% as well as defunding food pantries across the city, the NYC government has spent millions on technology and funding for police, including actual robot dogs designed to spy on citizens that cost $75,000+. Talk about fucked up priorities. Instead of actually caring for its citizens, our country would rather increase funding for the already militarized police force so they can suppress us even harder. To say that we need to fund them even MORE is deeply foolish and deeply harmful for actual people who actually need that funding to live. We live in a police state dystopia. Defund the police and invest in our communities, ACAB.
 
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Julie_Pilgrim

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but apparently some of our country's biggest defenders don't believe in it unless it minorly inconveniences them (like having to wear a mask
Racism: i sleep

Having to put a piece of cloth on my face: real shit
 

Valwinz

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Biden voters right now lol


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Something something "a riot the language of the unheard" something something MLK quote something something "our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay" blahblahblah

Time is a flat circle

Looting is bad
 
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