Nintendo goes after Game & Watch hacking videos with copyright claims

Deleted User · Jan 17, 2021

samcambolt270 said:
This is something I do not understand. It's not a game console. You can't even buy games on it. Being able to hack it does not somehow take money from their pocket. If I buy it with the intent of smashing it, hacking it, or stuffing it in a drawer, I still have to buy it to do so, and therefore give them money. Why in the world do they even care!? Me or anyone else telling people how to put doom on it isn't going causing damage, nor is it illegal.

It's like game discs: By buying it you don't own it, you're buying a license to play it.

samcambolt270 · Jan 17, 2021

Boesy said:
It's like game discs: By buying it you don't own it, you're buying a license to play it.

That's not how any of this works. First sale is very clear. When I buy an object, I have every right to do whatever I want with it. I am not buying a license to have the mario game and watch. I am buying a physical object, and nintendo has no legal right to dictate what I do with it. Besides, this isn't even the point of my post. My question is why the hell they even give a fuck. The mario game and watch is a fixed hardware device with no interchangeability, monetization or even the possibility of those things being added due to the fixed nature of the chips and software used. Me being able to hack it to add my own software to it does literally nothing to nintendo because you literally have to buy the device and therefore pay them to do it in the first place.
If I buy it to smash it with a hammer, they lose nothing. I paid them the money to do that. If I buy it to hack it and add doom to it, they still, yet again, lose nothing. It's not even the same as hacking a 3ds or a switch, where people can use it pirate software and avoid paying nintendo, which would obviously make sense for them to want to put the kibosh on videos about it. You can't buy new games for it, and they can't even update it to allow them to sell you games for it. Videos about hacking it, at absolute worst, incentivize people to buy it even more.

godreborn · Jan 17, 2021

chrisrlink said:
well its illegal to resell/rent in japan and they tried to push the ban here in the 90's so maybe that was their intent to use roms in the first place

actually, I think reselling is legal, at least now, in Japan. my ds was bought used in Akihabara. there's even a 5 story building there that's a game store where you can buy old games. they have game commercials on tvs in there too. I didn't buy any games, only the system at a neighboring store, and a pouch at a department store. I think I might still have the bag somewhere. the ds was in perfect condition too.

Henx · Jan 17, 2021

I've created a rant post about this and connected issues here
https://gbatemp.net/threads/monopolies-and-games-preservation-featuring-nintendo-and-youtube.581078/

ccfman2004 · Jan 17, 2021

Actually in the US, even with physical copies you don't actually own the software, only a license to use it. You the media it's on but not the actual software. Some people are missing the point. Nintendo lawyers didn't file a copywrite infringement notice because of the hack. They filed it because it showed Nintendo copywrited software according to the person who uploaded the video if you read the OP. For some unknown reason they do not like people posting videos showing off their software in action. Many Let's Plays have been taken down due to similar complaints. Also they do not allow you to profit from showcasing their games. The DMCA really needs an overhaul to make provisions for fair use of this stuff as it was created way before the digital age we are currently in like YouTube. Also in the US you can legally make a backup of something you own as long as you don't break any encryption/copy protections to due so making pretty much everything illegal to backup.

Henx · Jan 17, 2021

ccfman2004 said:
Actually in the US, even with physical copies you don't actually own the software, only a license to use it. You the media it's on but not the actual software. Some people are missing the point. Nintendo lawyers didn't file a copywrite infringement notice because of the hack. They filed it because it showed Nintendo copywrited software according to the person who uploaded the video if you read the OP. For some unknown reason they do not like people posting videos showing off their software in action. Many Let's Plays have been taken down due to similar complaints. Also they do not allow you to profit from showcasing their games. The DMCA really needs an overhaul to make provisions for fair use of this stuff as it was created way before the digital age we are currently in like YouTube. Also in the US you can legally make a backup of something you own as long as you don't break any encryption/copy protections to due so making pretty much everything illegal to backup.

I get that Nintendo is trying to protect their copyright, although they are alienating all their users and hurting them if they didn't. What I tried to convey is to tell a different story that allows them to impede content created.
Apart from what I said, changing DMCA law does nothing to protect game preservation, neither does help making backups. If you don't have the complete iso, there is no chance to back it up. Streaming services are destructive.

With that said, I agree the law should change to relax some fair use cases in the interest of the consumers and the community. I'm sure there is a lot of legitimate cases with passion to create and spread the love.

samcambolt270 · Jan 17, 2021

ccfman2004 said:
Actually in the US, even with physical copies you don't actually own the software, only a license to use it.

This is not accurate. You do own the software you purchase if there is not a very specific limited use license that you very specifically have to blatantly agree to. Software and digital products are in fact listed among those protected under the first sale doctrine. This includes all video games on physical media, and the majority of digitally purchased games that do not specifically have online components. Companies are not allowed to revoke use of any software legally purchased on physical media or purchased online as a wholecloth product, only revoke services. Anything you do to video games or media directly purchased, (only excluding blatantly licensed ones or ones requiring continuous purchasing upkeep) is legal as case law has directly stated numerous times. An online game can ban you for hacking, but you can do nothing to me for hacking an offline one. Even transfer of ownership of a digital product is legal as long the same number of copies exist at the end as the beginning. I can legally give you a "copy" of my ebook as long as I delete and remove my ability to access it in the process. This is what allows libraries to "loan" ebooks.

ccfman2004 · Jan 17, 2021

Henx said:
I get that Nintendo is trying to protect their copyright, although they are alienating all their users and hurting them if they didn't. What I tried to convey is to tell a different story that allows them to impede content created.
Apart from what I said, changing DMCA law does nothing to protect game preservation, neither does help making backups. If you don't have the complete iso, there is no chance to back it up. Streaming services are destructive.

With that said, I agree the law should change to relax some fair use cases in the interest of the consumers and the community. I'm sure there is a lot of legitimate cases with passion to create and spread the love.

I wan't responding to you actually since I didn't quote your post.

The DMCA needs to be updated to allow game preservation by not making it illegal to backup one's game cartridge/optical media. Although I do believe that, at least for Nintendo owned games, they keep everything as revealed by recent hacks where prototype and beta software from decades ago was found along with mountains of source code with all version control changes. Piracy is one thing but preservation should not be illegal.

Henx · Jan 17, 2021

ccfman2004 said:
I wan't responding to you actually since I didn't quote your post.

The DMCA needs to be updated to allow game preservation by not making it illegal to backup one's game cartridge/optical media. Although I do believe that, at least for Nintendo owned games, they keep everything as revealed by recent hacks where prototype and beta software from decades ago was found along with mountains of source code with all version control changes. Piracy is one thing but preservation should not be illegal.

Sorry about that! I've got it the wrong.

samcambolt270 · Jan 17, 2021

ccfman2004 said:
The DMCA needs to be updated to allow game preservation by not making it illegal to backup one's game cartridge/optical media.

Fun fact, it's effectively legal already. It's a grey area as far as case law goes for keeping both the digital and physical version at the same time, but there is precedent already in case law for the allowing of digital duplication of physical media assuming you destroy the original physical media, or if the media requires an external form of drm that can physically prevent a game from ever being played again if it breaks.
For example, you are in your legal right to photocopy your book, then burn the original, or vise versa (printing a digital file, then deleting it). I doesn't actually matter how many changes in form your property takes as long as the same number exists by the end.

Goku1992A · Jan 17, 2021

Boesy said:
Would it bother you if people pirated a show/movie/song/game that you made than purchase it?

Lets all be honest with ourselves piracy in general is dying. In this situation no harm will come Nintendo's way by people trying to play Pokémon blue on a game and watch gallery system for $50. If anything it would INCREASE the sales for the device.

ccfman2004 · Jan 17, 2021

samcambolt270 said:
Fun fact, it's effectively legal already. It's a grey area as far as case law goes for keeping both the digital and physical version at the same time, but there is precedent already in case law for the allowing of digital duplication of physical media assuming you destroy the original physical media, or if the media requires an external form of drm that can physically prevent a game from ever being played again if it breaks.
For example, you are in your legal right to photocopy your book, then burn the original, or vise versa (printing a digital file, then deleting it). I doesn't actually matter how many changes in form your property takes as long as the same number exists by the end.

Except that it doesn't really help with game preservation if you have to destroy the original once a copy has been made. You should be able to make a backup of physical media for archival purposes where the original media can be protected from damage while the backup is use so if the backup fails you can just make another backup from the original media. The problem is that in its current form the DCMA makes it illegal to backup physical media if it requires the user to break any kind of encryption or copy protection systems. Apps like DVD Decrypter and Requiem were both sent Cease and Desist notices and both have subsequently been discontinued to prevent any legal repercussions.

samcambolt270 · Jan 17, 2021

ccfman2004 said:
The problem is that in its current form the DCMA makes it illegal to backup physical media if it requires the user to break any kind of encryption or copy protection systems

This is not necessarily accurate, but mostly true. As I said, it's a grey area of case law. It has gone both ways. You can legally archive and preserve certain kinds of games and bypass certain forms of drm. There is actually a written exemption for the internet archive to archive games that used dongle based drms. You yourself are legally allowed to break any drm you see fit as long as you don't do it for the purposes of providing pirated content (and even then, its the providing of the content thats against the law, not the drm breaking part), but breaking it for others is something that alot of courts disagree on, unfortunately.

ccfman2004 · Jan 17, 2021

samcambolt270 said:
This is not necessarily accurate, but mostly true. As I said, it's a grey area of case law. It has gone both ways. You can legally archive and preserve certain kinds of games and bypass certain forms of drm. There is actually a written exemption for the internet archive to archive games that used dongle based drms. You yourself are legally allowed to break any drm you see fit as long as you don't do it for the purposes of providing pirated content (and even then, its the providing of the content thats against the law, not the drm breaking part), but breaking it for others is something that alot of courts disagree on, unfortunately.

This is why the DCMA need to updated to include specific cases for content preservation. I remember that after Audio CDs came out and people had the ability to rip the music, music studios were up in arms about people ripping the music to play on their computer.

I remember this little scandal from 2005: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

samcambolt270 · Jan 18, 2021

ccfman2004 said:
This is why the DCMA need to updated to include specific cases for content preservation.

I agree. Companies shouldn't be able to dictate the mediums on which we use the things they sell us, and they similarly shouldn't be allowed to force media into obscurity or non-existance simply because they don't feel like selling it again.

mive · Jan 18, 2021

godreborn said:
actually, they sued ebay auctioneers for selling nes or snes minis loaded with games. last time I checked, there were still a lot of those auctions though.

On amazon (germany, probably the same in at least every european country) you can still buy a ton of these chinese retro console devices with xxxx preinstalled games (also lots of nintendo ones). But amazon isn't that easy to bully like small ebay sellers

ccfman2004 · Jan 18, 2021

I had an eBay listing removed because the listing said the Switch came with a licensed copy of SX OS. I was selling the Switch as it was banned from online services. The listing never said anything about including pirated games and the like as I reformatted the device and the only thing on the SD card was the boot.dat and a backup copy of the Nand before anything was installed. It was removed because of the SX OS in the listing. This is another reason the DMCA needs to updated as SX OS has legitimate uses and not just used to play pirated games. I never pirated Switch games. All .xci files are from backups I personally made with the carts I have bought. The only reason I even bought the SX OS license was simply because I could play the .xci games without having to install them so it made it easy to add new games and delete ones I wasn’t going to play without having to wait to install them first. When it comes to installing .nsp files I’ve have nothing but issues with games larger than 4gb as the as card is FAT32 as I always had issues getting SX OS to boot if the card was exFAT.

CorteX_ · Jan 18, 2021

Ahhh good old Nintendo, with behavior like this for ancient devices and many other hacking projects, them cancelling melee tournaments because it has better fanmade netcode that they are too incompetent to write, and cancelling a splatoon tournament because people were using FreeMelee in their names aka full-blown censorship, joy con drift, their horrible twitch and youtube rules and takedown notices, and them dmca'ing fullscreenmario.com and am2r and then announcing mario maker and metroid samus returns mere months later. You people that claim to want to want to boycott nintendo need to stick to their fucking word, because I'm sure a large majority will buy SM3DW + BF and probably have the game on WiiU already.

Jayro · Jan 18, 2021

Maybe if they showed off the hacking without the use of NES roms in the videos, they wouldn't be struck down.

comput3rus3r · Jan 18, 2021

maybe they should focus on fixing the joycons

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