Nintendo files lawsuit against RCM Loader seller, claims piracy is a worsening international problem

Skelletonike · Nov 20, 2020

comput3rus3r said:
Says the self proclaimed anti piracy pervert... rofl

Indeed, I am in fact against piracy (because when I was a teenager I pirated too much).
Point remains that most people, do not buy them for CFW or piracy. If things were really that bad, switch games wouldn't be selling like hotcakes, despite their abusive price.

White_Raven_X · Nov 20, 2020

https://www.polygon.com/platform/am.../nintendo-rcm-loader-jailbreak-lawsuit-switch

Just ridiculous!

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...ourt-to-stop-sale-of-new-switch-hacking-tech/

smf · Nov 20, 2020

godreborn said:
where did you get that from?

"who cares if your security sucks. you're still making a lot more than the competition"

You're saying it's ok to steal from people who make a lot of money.

Scott_pilgrim said:
Yes, all the way yes

Do you think your opinion would change when people with less money than you, steal your money?

bobmcjr said:
No, games are absolutely 100% "computer programs". Nintendo even admitted that the "one backup" exemption applies to their games: "The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic"

While you are allowed to make a backup, it's still illegal to sell something that allows you to make the backup usable.

Bladexdsl · Nov 20, 2020

Scott_pilgrim said:
They aren’t gonna win this

people said that about team X and look what happened. fuck off nintapple!

DaveLister · Nov 20, 2020

mattyxarope said:
I can't even imagine these posing a problem to Nintendo - what's the percentage of people that have V1 switches anyway??

I think its about 20 million units vulnerable until Mariko

bubolechka · Nov 20, 2020

Here is a quote from another forum (Polygon) by "By IndigoAK" , which totally match my personal view...

"Between Nintendo’s increasingly heavy-handed tactics towards Switch mods, their ridiculous faux-digital scarcity bullshit and the fact that their games never drop in price until the successor console is on the shelves, they’re quickly becoming one of my most disliked companies in the industry."

Also I can add that, I'm not only starting to dislike Nintendo, but even more....I feel like I'm starting to hate Nintendo as a company at all...
And finally I have a very simple and straightforward question : What is the percentage of "hacked" Nintendo Switch consoles from all 68.3 million sold units worldwide ? 1% ?!? 2% ?!? (insert Twitch NotLikeThat emote here) .... F you GREEDY Nintendo ! F U !

bobmcjr · Nov 20, 2020

smf said:
While you are allowed to make a backup, it's still illegal to sell something that allows you to make the backup usable.

Nope. Emulators that cost money exist and haven't been killed by Nintendo. Nothing against making the backup usable under the Section 117 and DMCA Section 103f exemptions, especially under DMCA 103f's explicit "interoperability" statement.

smf · Nov 20, 2020

bobmcjr said:
Nope. Emulators that cost money exist and haven't been killed by Nintendo. Nothing against making the backup usable under the Section 117 and DMCA Section 103f exemptions, especially under DMCA 103f's explicit "interoperability" statement.

Interoperability isn't for backups of games. It's for transferring information between programs.

(f) Reverse Engineering.— (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title. (3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section. (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term "interoperability" means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged.

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbre...yright-office-right-to-repair-dcma-exemptions

Under section 1201 of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), it is “unlawful to circumvent technological measures used to prevent unauthorized access to copyrighted works.”

As modifying a console to play backups circumvents technological measures used to prevent unauthorized access to copyrighted works as well, it is not lawful. The Copyright Office grants exemptions to 1201 and people have repeatedly asked for consoles to be exempted and they have been turned down.

fusee gelee and sept also circumvent technological measures.

bobmcjr · Nov 20, 2020

smf said:
Interoperability isn't for backups of games. It's for transferring information between programs.

And is there a precedent that says it isn't? Nintendo has already established that their games are computer programs. Everything is information, and emulators translate console-language computer program information to PC-language computer program information. Nintendo would've already killed every emulation project ever if this weren't the case.

smf · Nov 20, 2020

bobmcjr said:
And is there a precedent that says it isn't?

I don't think anyone has made that argument in court, so there isn't a precedent either way.

But the language is quite explicit in saying it is to allow you to reverse engineer something for interoperability between two programs. Using a backup doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.

a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs,

Until you can get a ruling that the "sole purpose" also includes playing a backup of your game then I will disagree with you.

bobmcjr said:
Nintendo would've already killed every emulation project ever if this weren't the case.

How would they? For a start you're going to start playing whack a mole, emulators can just pop up elsewhere and it would be difficult to find them let alone try to launch a legal battle. Nintendo weren't even going after rom sites until they started charging money for access. Which changes things quite a lot.

I also don't think people running emulators are lost sales for Nintendo, they are more interested in people who want all the benefits of a switch but with a commercial hack that makes playing illegally downliaded games super easy.

the_randomizer · Nov 20, 2020

Bladexdsl said:
people said that about team X and look what happened. fuck off nintapple!

Sheesh, calm the hell down, dude. Lay off the Xanax or something and take a break from the internet instead of being conceited?

bobmcjr said:
And is there a precedent that says it isn't? Nintendo has already established that their games are computer programs. Everything is information, and emulators translate console-language computer program information to PC-language computer program information. Nintendo would've already killed every emulation project ever if this weren't the case.

Which is funny, because Nintendo uses emulators on their NSO

bobmcjr · Nov 20, 2020

smf said:
I don't think anyone has made that argument in court, so there isn't a precedent either way.

But the language is quite explicit in saying it is to allow you to reverse engineer something for interoperability between two programs. Using a backup doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.

a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs,

Nobody has ever argued that an archival/backup copy cannot be used in place of the original. There is no language in in Section 117 that explicitly disallows the use of the backup. Its general interpretation has always been that you make the backup so if the original becomes unusable or destroyed while in your possession, you can use the backup in its place. Nothing is wrong with analyzing the backup, especially when analyzing the original isn't really possible.

smf said:
How would they? For a start you're going to start playing whack a mole, emulators can just pop up elsewhere and it would be difficult to find them let alone try to launch a legal battle. Nintendo weren't even going after rom sites until they started charging money for access. Which changes things quite a lot.

Modern emulators would be extremely easy targets to disrupt and limit their usage/development. GitHub, Discord, etc are extremely responsive to DMCA requests, and I'd imagine Atlassian is too. Many emulator developers would likely abandon their respective projects if they suddenly became illegal, which seems like an outcome Nintendo would like. If Nintendo could legally take down or disrupt Yuzu by any means, they absolutely would. The fact that the Switch is current gen combined with Yuzu's current Patreon numbers would make them a large target if Nintendo had any legal grounds to do anything. Of course, Bleem has established unauthorized emulation as legal in the general case, and it has not been legally challenged since then, but if there were some other copyright takedown/lawsuit avenue Nintendo could approach, they would've found it. Their OS security guys may not be the most competent, but their lawyers are.

chrisrlink · Nov 20, 2020

sad it's only nintendo that does this shit (MS gave us dev kit mode on the one/ SX/S (and to this day no piracy enabling hacks on either console) and sony now allows via hacker one to allow devs to release the exploits after their patched, a complete 180 from the ps3 days) and hell sega allows people to use their ip's to make video games and even partner with them I wish nintendo would "get with it already"and realizing opening up their consoles to an extent would reduce the chance for piracy it's a no brainer

TheGodMauro · Nov 20, 2020

The seller dealt with SX products, honestly it's entirely on him that he got sued if he didn't see the writing on the wall after the lawsuit back in May.

Video game developers (Or any digital media distributors really) have every reason to be scared shitless of piracy, because people will always gravitate to the most convenient option.

Let's look at an example of another industry that was driven to the ground, music. Album sales started dropping exponentially after people discovered that you could download the songs they wanted freely from the web, to answer to that, record companies had to offer their catalogues via streaming services in a way that was even more convenient than what was before. The trade off?, musicians make almost nothing from streams and need to tour nonstop in order to make a living, because for most people nowadays, buying music is a ridiculous concept.

Before I continue on that line I'd like to reiterate a point, convenience. The seller provided, and even promoted on the article, a convenient way to pirate games, that's why he's getting sued. Big N isn't going to go about and sue every RCM jig out there, they don't need to. What they likely want is to discourage people from offering convenient ways for people to pirate their content, you need to remember that gbatemp users are but an minuscule percentage of the switch's userbase, and that your everyday John isn't going to bother with reading about payloads, jigs, cfws, or sigpatches, he just wants to wind down after a day of work and enjoy some entertainment. If buying the game through the eshop is the most convenient way, he will use that.

Technicmaster0 · Nov 20, 2020

bobmcjr said:
No, games are absolutely 100% "computer programs". Nintendo even admitted that the "one backup" exemption applies to their games: "The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic"

(they finally got rid of this god awful page as far as I can tell, so I had to grab it on Wayback: http://web.archive.org/web/20190206234131/https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom )

Think of it this way. Nintendo would've fucked emulation projects years ago if the backups used on them could not be obtained illegally by any means. CDs and DVDs are also explicitly permitted to be backed up.

Hmm. I understand the eugh ruling kind of differently.
"The referring court considers that the protection of videogames cannot be reduced to that provided for computer programs. Indeed, although videogames take their functionality from a computer program, they begin and progress following a narrated predetermined route by the authors of those games in a way to make a group of images and sounds appear together with some conceptual autonomy."
http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=146686&doclang=EN

Keep in mind that the seller is from europe, not the us.

xdarkmario · Nov 21, 2020

Let me fix this article's headline for you

"Nintendo is a worsening international problem"

i have lost so much respect in nintendo lately, from shutting down fan projects to entire tournaments. they throw many C&D orders its no wonder they dont have the money to work on games. when we use emulators we are the DEVIL but when when they SELL us emulators with a community ROM its business.

the_randomizer · Nov 21, 2020

Now I feel even less guilty for finding and downloading ROM sets

Suck it, Nintendo.

gregory-samba · Nov 21, 2020

Triggering the Switch into RCM mode and injecting code to bypass security mechanisms is exactly what RCM loaders allow you to do and the CFW, be it Atmosphere or SX OS are part of that equation. In the USA bypassing copyright mechanisms, which is what you do when you boot into Hekate or Atmosphere, regardless if you're pirating games is still illegal. Nintendo has all the right to file this lawsuit and will most likely win in or out of court.

Julie_Pilgrim · Nov 21, 2020

smf said:
Do you think your opinion would change when people with less money than you, steal your money?

Bruh did you just compare me taking $60 from a billion dollar company to some guy taking money from a 13 year old

the_randomizer · Nov 21, 2020

Scott_pilgrim said:
Bruh did you just compare me taking $60 from a billion dollar company to some guy taking money from a 13 year old

Forget him, somebody lit the fuse on his tampon this morning

♂ ♥ Gallant Pervert ♥ ♀

Hack everything, hack the world!

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