Sony releases official PS5 teardown video

eyeliner · Oct 8, 2020

sansnumen said:
It's not a hoax at all. It's a consequence of physics and materials engineering. A NAND chip fresh off the factory floor will display read and write errors. It comes with the territory. Every read and write cycle causes degradation of the NAND chips. Also, NAND chips degrade over time even if not in use, same as what happens to lithium ion batteries.

That's why NAND controllers have built in wear leveling and sometimes error correction.

If you look at the spec sheet for a Samsung 1 TB 970 EVO m.2 SSD, you will see that it's using MLC NAND rated at 5 years or 600 TBW. There are four types of NAND chips in use at this time: SLC, MLC, TLC, QLC. We still don't know which NAND type Sony decided to use. With TLC and QLC, more of the NAND needs to be reserved for wear leveling to reach the reliability of SLC and MLC.

As for why 3DS systems have not failed due to bad NAND chips, that's easy to explain. Internal NAND on 3DS is reserved for the OS and a partition for DSi games. The chips vary from 1 GB to 4 GB in size. These are high quality MLC chips. Seeing as there is minimal use of the internal NAND on 3DS and newer 3DS systems have 2 GB or 4 GB NAND chips with plenty of extra space for wear leveling many systems are not close to NAND death yet. On 3DS, microSD cards take the brunt of the abuse.

That about covers it.

Cellphones combat thy logic, my hound. NAND chips have been upgraded quite a lot from when what you posited was true.

Payne · Oct 8, 2020

Surprising to see liquid metal cooling in a console, but still confused, shouldn't liquid metal cooling be much efficient than air cooling, so that fan and heatsink don't have to be so enormous ? yet they still are

linuxares · Oct 8, 2020

Payne said:
Surprising to see liquid metal cooling in a console, but still confused, shouldn't liquid metal cooling be much efficient than air cooling, so that fan and heatsink don't have to be so enormous ? yet they still are

Probably over doing it. But I rather have to much cooling than to little.

RichardTheKing · Oct 8, 2020

linuxares said:
Probably over doing it. But I rather have to much cooling than to little.

I'm pretty sure the PS4 models were criticised for sounding like a jet engine, or similar, so they're probably trying to nip this issue in the bud.

linuxares · Oct 8, 2020

RichardTheKing said:
I'm pretty sure the PS4 models were criticised for sounding like a jet engine, or similar, so they're probably trying to nip this issue in the bud.

For sure! Most consoles honestly have sounded like some kind of vaccum cleaner except the 3DS.

RichardTheKing · Oct 8, 2020

linuxares said:
For sure! Most consoles honestly have sounded like some kind of vaccum cleaner except the 3DS.

The Switch isn't all that loud either, and mine spends all its time in the dock.
Having a quiet console is definitely good PR, so Sony's wise to aim for that; whether they manage to succeed or not...not known yet, especially considering components become less reliable and more prone to overheating with age - and more prone to collecting dust.

Acid_Snake · Oct 8, 2020

RichardTheKing said:
I'm pretty sure the PS4 models were criticised for sounding like a jet engine, or similar, so they're probably trying to nip this issue in the bud.

From my experience they are either extremely loud or extremely quiet and I don't know which one is worse.
My PS4 slim barely makes any sound from the fan but it also gets extremely hot, haven't had any issues so far as it's brand new but still it doesn't seem like a good idea, I'd rather have a louder fan that actually expells heat.

Deleted member 194275 · Oct 8, 2020

linuxares said:
For sure! Most consoles honestly have sounded like some kind of vaccum cleaner except the 3DS.

This is very true. Even that good heat management with low noise is possible, and even easy to get (just look to some gaming notebooks, how powerful and silent they are) consoles need to cost as low as possible, while enthusiast level colling solutions don't.

But judging for the huge size and number of blades of that fan, I guess it will spin slow for the most of time.

AlexMCS · Oct 8, 2020

I don't know how you guys do it, but my consoles don't sound anywhere as near as loud as you make it out to be.
My PC sounds louder than the consoles, and both are pretty quiet.
Maybe it's because I stopped using physical media for decades already.

TomSwitch · Oct 8, 2020

What if you can buy Windows 10 from play station store? This would be a really cool PC.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

RichardTheKing said:
Not really "plug and play" anymore, especially with the no-disc variant - these days, you have to "plug, wait for game/update to download, play", which isn't as convenient.

With disc you also have to wait. The only difference is you can sell the disc. With cartridge the problem is load time may well be longer compared to those that install on nand.

subcon959 · Oct 8, 2020

Payne said:
Surprising to see liquid metal cooling in a console, but still confused, shouldn't liquid metal cooling be much efficient than air cooling, so that fan and heatsink don't have to be so enormous ? yet they still are

Liquid metal is the type of thermal paste used between heatsink and cpu.. it's still just air cooled.

Foxi4 · Oct 8, 2020

sansnumen said:
That's good to know about SSD longevity. Still, it would be nice if the NAND chips weren't soldered onto the board. At least the heatsink is a massive beast.

You're not wrong, a removable module would've been even better. On the bright side, you can probably use a heatgun to replace these chips anyway, much like how it's done on the Switch if you want more than 32GB's of storage provided by the stock module. With some luck, Sony will adopt the same module-based strategy in future revisions/consoles, but at the end of the day, we do have consoles with NAND-based memory on-board that are decades old and still working fine, so I wouldn't worry too much.

MetoMeto · Oct 8, 2020

Gaming consoles are not interesting anymore, they are just compact luxurious PC's that are brand locked and for simple use.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

The thing that prevents dust from entering is letting the dust entering...it's a feature, not a flaw.

[spoiler/]

Tom Bombadildo · Oct 8, 2020

Payne said:
Surprising to see liquid metal cooling in a console, but still confused, shouldn't liquid metal cooling be much efficient than air cooling, so that fan and heatsink don't have to be so enormous ? yet they still are

Liquid metal doesn't actually "cool" anything, it's simply a better conductor of heat vs your average thermal paste. Adding liquid metal to a system won't automatically make it cooler if the heatsink/fan you're using can't dissipate the heat fast enough, which would explain why they'd add a bigass heatsink and bigass fan as well. Also keep in mind that entire heat sink isn't just cooling a CPU, it has to keep the GPU and the RAM and the SSD/flash controller (which I expect will push out a lot more heat than a standard SSD, given the extra performance it's supposed to have) and possibly the PSU all nice and cool as well. It's much better to have too much cooling than it is to have not enough, otherwise you end up with the jet engine sounding PS3/PS4.

Foxi4 · Oct 8, 2020

MetoMeto said:
Gaming consoles are not interesting anymore, they are just compact luxurious PC's that are brand locked and for simple use.

Always have been. There are very few consoles that are original designs and not derivatives of pre-existing hardware. They all use the same tech. Your garden variety NES isn't *that* much different from a Commodore 64.

Xzi said:
Damn that's crazy, it's mostly fan and heatsink. And liquid metal cooling on top of that?! Seems like Sony went the extra mile there.

Funnily enough, that's one of the failure points of the system, no doubt. I personally do not recommend using liquid metal on systems that are not regularly serviced, like an enthusiast-grade PC. Unlike traditional paste, liquid metal (an alloy of gallium, indium and tin) diffuses in other metals creating amalgams - this is particularly obvious on aluminium which it destroys almost immediately if the thin oxide layer protecting it is damaged. It basically "dries out" over time (you can tell by the staining of metals), necessitating top-ups. That's the first thing in this whole system that will need to be looked at, barring disc drive failure or failure due to thermals. I personally wouldn't engineer a consumer product using it if I didn't expect the user to take the heatsink off periodically, and judging by warranty stickers Sony does not. The gasket around the chip may prevent it from leaking out (liquid metal does not solidify in room temperature or "bake on" like traditional TIM does), but it doesn't prevent it from interacting with the copper base plate (and it will, just much slower than with aluminium) which will reduce its volume.

MetoMeto · Oct 8, 2020

Foxi4 said:
Always have been. There are very few consoles that are original designs and not derivatives of pre-existing hardware. They all use the same tech. Your garden variety NES isn't *that* much different from a Commodore 64.

Not really "always". Today consoles, the modern ones, look so similar to PC's that you can call them branded PC and not the console. They have all the features that PC's have, where consoles where different before, they are at least visually different. Switch still looks like a console at least judging by the size. and simplicity. But when consoles started getting fans i back in the day i was starting to think like "these consoles are starting to look like PC's" but it was only the fan back than... now all that PlayStation needs to truly look like a PC is separate graphics cards and removable cpu fans and gpu fans and ram memory....

Foxi4 · Oct 8, 2020

MetoMeto said:
Not really "always". Today consoles, the modern ones, look so similar to PC's that you can call them branded PC and not the console.

You genuinely can't. Modern consoles use the same customised hardware as they did 20-30 years ago. Again, the N64 is badically an SGI Indy workstation, the 360 is a pair of Mac's stiched together, and so on, and so forth. Sony literally designed their own SSD tech just to remain competitive. Just because consoles are now using the same architecture as PC's doesn't make them PC's.

Acid_Snake · Oct 8, 2020

Foxi4 said:
You genuinely can't. Modern consoles use the same customised hardware as they did 20-30 years ago. Again, the N64 is badically an STI Indy workstation, the 360 is a pair of Mac's stiched together, and so on, and so forth. Sony literally designed their own SSD tech just to remain competitive. Just because consoles are now using the same architecture as PC's doesn't make them PC's.

I'm so tired of this "consoles are PCs" mentality from PCGMR. It's so wrong on so many levels and neglects any and all scientific knowledge regarding computers, it's literally the antivaxers/flatearthers of gaming. Not even fail0verflow managed to eliminate this, and they did a pretty good job in the PS4 hacking presentation to explain why this is not a correct assumption. Not to mention the Original Xbox having no decent emulator despite being "just a PC" as ignorant people say. But oh well, we can just ignore these people and let them live in their ignorance (either that or they are trolls, either way it's best to ignore them).

Joe88 · Oct 8, 2020

nolimits59 said:
Have I a very bad memory or is it the first time consoles are "ahead" of the release of the next gen of graphic cards ?

RDNA2 is supposed to be revealed (and released) on oct 28th, 2 weeks before the xbox series x, and ps5 release

driverdis · Oct 8, 2020

Definitely will be running mine flat with that liquid metal. I can’t imagine that Sony literally sat one vertical for years with liquid metal to see if any leaked out. Even if they did, manufacturing tolerances would need to be tight enough to prevent this on millions of systems or else some may leak out. Hopefully Sony also made sure the heat sink does not absorb the liquid metal over time requiring a reapplication in the future.

Has an itch needing to be scratched.

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