Murder in the moral and in the factual sense, not in the legal sense. Slavery was also legal, it doesn't make it morally correct.
In addition, legally it's murder because if a person kills a pregnant woman, it's a double homicide.
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Am I the only person with consistent views? (COVID19/abortion)
- Thread starter UltraDolphinRevolution
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In addition, legally it's murder because if a person kills a pregnant woman, it's a double homicide.
so we moved the goal-post again. using ambiguous language is disingenuous and a bad argument. Slavery is still legal in the united states by the way, because of the 13th amendment. maybe we should be focusing on people who are alive, instead of people who are only semi-alive. “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” makes you wonder why we have a school to prison pipeline in the USA for blacks.
The government doesn't define what is moral, they only define what you can and cannot do in society. Even by your own faulty definition, I gave you a clear example of how abortion is murder.
Tell me why you think it's OK to kill innocent children?
YOU think it is a child. I do not think it is a child until born. what gives you the right to make that distinction? My wife almost died to an ectopic pregnancy a couple years ago. we were using both a condom and the IUD, but got unlucky. some states are trying to pass laws that would deem my wife and her doctor a murderer. Even if she wasn't going to die, she gets to decide what happens with her body, NO ONE ELSE DOES, not me, not the government.
Everyone is so concerned about the child's life until it's born, then it's "lets send them to fucking school so they can get sick and die in a hospital of a preventable infection." or "fuck those people who need food stamps to feed their child, the children deserve to starve because they shouldn't have had kids, but are not allowed to abort."
Last edited by omgcat,
Once it survives the birth unaided. remember that child that was born without 95% of it's brain and needed to be on life support? not a child. Do you support universal care for children, and guaranteed food? if not you are a hypocrite that is trying to control women's bodies, you do not actually care for the children.
Last edited by omgcat,
Therefore, according to your logic, after 6-7 months, if an abortion is performed, it's murder. Do you agree then, that laws in New York State which allow abortions at 9 months should be overturned?
Did the fetus make it out of the woman's body and survive unaided? if yes, it is. I support late term abortions because the VAST majority are for still-births and significant complications. according to the CDC less than 1.3% of abortions are performed after 21 weeks. 9 months is 39+ weeks.
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm
but sure, go ahead and keep arguing without backing anything with stats or references.
Last edited by omgcat,
Again, nothing magical happens when the fetus passes the birth canal. The child is human, and alive, before birth and after birth.
"Unaided". By your logic, a human born via cesarean section can be killed because it wasn't born "unaided".
"Did the fetus make it out of the woman's body and survive unaided?"
work on your reading comprehension, nowhere did i state birth canal.
is the fetus inside the woman? abortion A'ok
is the fetus braindead, already dead, or SIGNIFICANTLY malformed? Abortion A'ok
has the child exited the woman's body through vaginal birth or C-section and is responding normally? Abortion not ok.
Last edited by omgcat,
"UNAIDED"
You cannot exit through cesarean section unaided. By your logic, they aren't human and can be dismembered, skulls crushed and ripped apart.
unaided indicates breathing machines, dialysis, heart pumps, ect. My opinion is that this follows the same logic as an incapacitated adult that has no chance of recovering, for example terri schiavo. like imagine your wife gives birth to a brain dead child, and you are not allowed to end its life. you MUST pay for its eternal life support. i'm sure you would be ok with that though.
Last edited by omgcat,
If the family decides so, yes. the supreme court already ruled on this.
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you guys have literally no standing, legally or historically. you go based on your feelings rather than logic.
"I feel that the fetus is a human child"
"I feel that abortion is murder"
Last edited by omgcat,
Last edited by omgcat,
D
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Hello?!
That came out of well, excuse the pun
left field
seriously that does not make any sense.
Like... never brought up the idea, never said it, and then you just said that...
it's a blanket statement your trying to put a person into a box so you can continue to refute yourself.
stop that, get some help.
Anyways seeing this delve into a shitshow... again, might as well cut through the bs for the last couple of lines, because holy crap is all backwards.
Yes, but only their family can choose so. Reasoning is because if they are that long into a coma or sedated state, the less of chance them really coming back every hour they are like that, and instead you kinda just have a zombie. And because well someone has to pay the bills, and it's obviously not the person who is sedated. that situation is really not fair for the supporting party to be forced to keep someone who, without the extreme help would die, who, and this is important, lacks consciousness for a overextended period of time and seemingly will not be able to comeback.
The supreme court did rule on this (reasoning I provided is what I am assuming the reason was. Makes the most logical sense to me.)
It is human, but is it right? If someone was born lacking consciousness/sedated and needed extreme additional support (heart pumps, or air tubes) and if they were going to need it for the rest of their lives and may not even come out of the sedated state, or if the doctor is unable to figure out how long they would be like that. Or if the conditioning is constantly worsening, it's completely valid, as I would argue it's inhuman to keep them like that. That's constant suffering for both the mother, and if the child could think or feel, suffering for it. If however child is born (C-section or vaginal birth) is reacting normally (including no extreme support) to stimuli and clearly without a doubt conscious. Then no it's not okay, because we can argue it is it's own person. While say if it's still in the mother, yet to fully become conscious and developed enough that it can support itself (which we know most of the time since there is signs when that progresses), as in eating breathing, drinking. Then at any moment before that point, I would argue the child is apart of the mother, and the mother retains the right to do what she wants with her body, and since the child is being born in it, she has the right to abort. Regardless of circumstance, moment the child is outside the mother, and meets the requirements, that child is a person. therefore the mother is now responsible for keeping that child alive/cannot kill it, unless of course, the child becomes apart of a sedated state and requires additional help, and some others. (see response 2 of this message)
Last edited by ,
"I feel that passing through the vaginal canal makes this human life valuable".
You have your personal feelings, but none of your positions are based on scientific fact.
1. The fetus is human
2. The fetus is alive
3. Abortion is killing a healthy, human fetus.
Also, abortion clinics in the US are specifically placed in black/low income areas to cull the minority population. Why do you hate black people?
You generally put a service where the need is greatest.
The foetus will eventually become a human if all else goes right.
Alive after a fashion.
There are unhealthy foetuses that get removed but yeah, your point? Do it right and nothing ever suffers, and suffering is prevented in others. Seems like a pretty good option to have.
If you want to arbitrarily declare it (I don't know if this is to be a just fertilised or actually implanted embryo but whatever) valuable and thus not to be messed with then OK. Why would I follow you in that logic? Indeed forcing someone to go through pregnancy (never mind one that is actually truly dangerous or unlikely to result in the baby having a meaningful quality of life) and then having an unwanted child in the world seems to add quite a bit to suffering of people and if you can prevent it then why wouldn't (aka the general approach taken by medics and ethicists of that field, as well as the laws of most places anyone would want to live).
The foetus will eventually become a human if all else goes right.
Alive after a fashion.
There are unhealthy foetuses that get removed but yeah, your point? Do it right and nothing ever suffers, and suffering is prevented in others. Seems like a pretty good option to have.
If you want to arbitrarily declare it (I don't know if this is to be a just fertilised or actually implanted embryo but whatever) valuable and thus not to be messed with then OK. Why would I follow you in that logic? Indeed forcing someone to go through pregnancy (never mind one that is actually truly dangerous or unlikely to result in the baby having a meaningful quality of life) and then having an unwanted child in the world seems to add quite a bit to suffering of people and if you can prevent it then why wouldn't (aka the general approach taken by medics and ethicists of that field, as well as the laws of most places anyone would want to live).
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