[UPDATE] Epic Games to sue Apple and Google

epic-games-logo.jpg

Following Apple's decision to pull Fortnite from its Apple Store, Epic Games announced that it will take legal action. Epic Games shared the news via the official Fortnite Twitter account:


“Epic brings this suit to end Apple’s unfair and anti-competitive actions that Apple undertakes to unlawfully maintain its monopoly in two distinct, multibillion dollar markets: (i) the iOS App Distribution Market, and (ii) the iOS In-App Payment Processing Market(each as defined below),” the lawsuit reads. “Epic is not seeking monetary compensation from this Court for the injuries it has suffered. Nor is Epic seeking favorable treatment for itself, a single company. Instead, Epic is seeking injunctive relief to allow fair competition in these two key markets that directly affect hundreds of millions of consumers and tens of thousands, if not more, of third-party app developers.”

You can read the complaint in its entirety in the source link below.

:arrow: SOURCE

UPDATE:

In response to Fortnite being taken down from the Google Play Store as well, Epic Games filed a lawsuit against against Google for antitrust violation.

:arrow: SOURCE
 
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diggeloid

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But treating devs fairly does not make them a monopoly/anti-trust. They may have an almost abusive deal, but nothing's FORCING them to go to that market other than themselves. There's still the Android, PC, and Console Markets. Ergo, there's no monopoly, and the deal was there clear as day.



Ooor they could just be on a different phone type and thus fans of the iOS would have less reason to BE an Apple customer and swap over to Android, etc. That's still a competitive market. There's nothing wrong with being on every console EXCEPT one. See: Nintendo, which usually IS the odd-man out when games are multi-platform.



Apple can live without fortnite. Fortnite/Epic can exist without Apple. This is just about greed on both ends. The issue however is "Apple's getting a share, and we want the whole pie despite agreeing to the share".



But nothing about how they handle their store is, in itself, anti-competitive. People seem to forget that a 'market' does not limit itself to one's own phones. When this is taken to court, the argument will be taken, rightfully, that there are NON-APPLE PHONES ON THE MARKET.

Apple may be assholes who don't let you benefit from non-Apple approved content, yes, but in that respect the original NES could be considered a monopoly because it couldn't play ATARI games. Or the PS4 is a monopoly because it don't let you play XBox 1 Disks/games. But that isn't how it works. This is different software covering the same market - the Mobile market. Making it harder to enter their market isn't anti-trust, nor is it a monopoly. They do not force you to "Apple or Bust".

In any and all approaches legally, while it is SCUMMY, it is NOT illegal or monopolistic.




You realize Epic is underneath Tencent, which is literally attempting to form a monopoly of games by buying majority stockholdership of countless countries game development studios, or at least enough to have a major say in the control of the companies, right? Tencent is the literal monopoly, and Epic is one of their puppets that they own 40% of. If you honestly think that there isn't 11% of the remaining 60% (that's 18% of the remnants btw, not even a majority) who will agree with Tencent in MOST scenarios, then you don't know how stupid people can be.

I said it before: while neither are 'good', what Apple is doing is NOT AGAINST CURRENT LAW, and all aspects of current law clearly establish this.

When this is taken to court, they are not going to rewrite law to make people or even Epic feel better about their views. They are going to be enforcing the law based on the current written law, which is, as I've stated, a fairly OPEN-SHUT CASE in favor of Apple. The only way this goes in Epic's favor is a corrupt judge.

Laws need to be changed before anything Apple does (beyond their Right-To-Repair arguments) is strictly against the law (and even then, Right to Repair laws need to be rewritten slightly just because of how Apple handles their "Right to Repair" approaches.

The issue is a lot more complicated than what you're interpreting it as, and you clearly have some misunderstanding of at least how lawsuits work, if not the relevant facts here. I get that you hate Epic (I do too), but you're allowing your emotions to make you ignorant.

The existence of Android does not mean Apple doesn't engage in anti-competitive practices, or own multiple monopolies in various industries. They do, and they have done so for a very long time. There are many years of evidence, many instances of competitors getting screwed over. This is a long history which you would need to research and learn about yourself to understand the context of this lawsuit, and I'm fairly confident you haven't done that research (which is perfectly understandable, since there's no reason for most people to bother with that).

But in my case, I am a developer who has been dealing with Apple's (and other tech giants) bullshit for over a decade, and I have first-hand experience with their ruthless anti-competitive behaviors and practices. These are causing major harm to the various multi-billion-dollar industries they control, are stifling competition and innovation, and as a result are harming consumers and the economy of the United States and the rest of the world. Epic is doing a good job of illustrating that harm by showing how they can offer a 20% discount across the board if Apple/Google lower their excessive 30% commission. That is a major, tangible benefit to the consumer that will serve as an excellent example in the lawsuit.


My only fear here is that the current political situation could fuck this up. With the US thinking about banning TikTok, WeChat, and other Chinese spyware, this move from Epic could be seen as an attempt by the Chinese government (through Tencent) to circumvent the ban by distributing those apps through their own appstore on iOS and Android. I don't know whether or not that is true, but I don't care, personally. Chinese giants like Tencent are propped up by government money and backing (through corporate espionage and similar). Even if they get a strong share of American industries in the short term, in the long term, American innovation will win. It always has, and it always will. And as long as there is room for competition, free market forces will allow us to continue to invent and innovate.

But as it stands, we're moving at the beat of Apple's drum (and Google's/Microsoft's/Facebook's/Amazon's/etc).
 

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Cannot stand either company, and I think Google is getting way too fucking big. It's pretty scary how much power Google has. So, I am rooting for Epic, even though I cannot stand them as a company.
 

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The issue is a lot more complicated than what you're interpreting it as, and you clearly have some misunderstanding of at least how lawsuits work, if not the relevant facts here. I get that you hate Epic (I do too), but you're allowing your emotions to make you ignorant.

I hate just about every company nowadays. Apple and Epic both are on my "Forbidden List". I shall not pay a penny to them, I forbid my family to the best of my ability from funding either. They're up there with Gamestop, Bethesda, EA, and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head but I damn well would seeing the company name.

That you're implying that my pov is 'biased' is attempting to discredit my view based on your own personal bias in favor of Epic. Case in point, throughout this whole topic I've made it a point that I hate Apple every darn bit as much. Yet somehow, you zero in on the idea my hatred for Epic in particular is exceptional. This is the furthest thing from the truth.

The existence of Android does not mean Apple doesn't engage in anti-competitive practices, or own multiple monopolies in various industries. They do, and they have done so for a very long time. There are many years of evidence, many instances of competitors getting screwed over. This is a long history which you would need to research and learn about yourself to understand the context of this lawsuit, and I'm fairly confident you haven't done that research (which is perfectly understandable, since there's no reason for most people to bother with that).

A monopoly is a structure in which a single supplier produces and sells a given product or service. If there is a single seller in a certain market and there are no close substitutes for the product, then the market structure is that of a "pure monopoly".

Is Apple the only seller of mobile games? No.
Is it the only one who provides a platform (service) to host mobile games on? No.
Are they the sort to conflict with competition? Yes. They will attempt to shut down any competition within their rights. As I have gone over, they have a horrible history with Right to Repair, yet as the law stands now, they are protected although that is changing.

There are *two* key points established to determine a monopoly:
  • A monopoly exists when there is only one producer and many consumers.
  • Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods.
Neither of these points can be distinguished as Apple.

Furthermore with some basic investigation into the subject of what the federal government deems a monopoly, the Sherman act covers:

(1) anticompetitive agreements and (2) unilateral conduct that monopolizes or attempts to monopolize the relevant market

Apple does not fall under 1. They are not forming agreements with other companies to shut out Google entirely.

And 2 we both know without a doubt Google isn't moving the goalpost in their favor.



But in my case, I am a developer who has been dealing with Apple's (and other tech giants) bullshit for over a decade, and I have first-hand experience with their ruthless anti-competitive behaviors and practices.

I honestly don't buy this. It may be true, but anyone can claim "I am X working for Y". I can claim I'm Chris Barrett working for Bungie, and you couldn't really *prove* that without his aide (although "I" might be lying just to make the trail run cold that way).

Also, many companies will claim that a business' practices are anti-competitive simply because they can't win. A Ma and Pa shop cannot compete with a Walmart due to the scale of connections and resources the company has. This doesn't on its own necessarily make Walmart an anti-trust, as an example. Likewise, it's rare for an average or low level development to hold its own vs Apple due to similar issues - more/more experienced coders, for example. Being able to get assistance/deals with multiple company leaders. As long as they aren't making deals forbidding the aide/business with a competitor, then honestly it's not a monopoly.


These are causing major harm to the various multi-billion-dollar industries they control, are stifling competition and innovation, and as a result are harming consumers and the economy of the United States and the rest of the world. Epic is doing a good job of illustrating that harm by showing how they can offer a 20% discount across the board if Apple/Google lower their excessive 30% commission. That is a major, tangible benefit to the consumer that will serve as an excellent example in the lawsuit.

The 30% Commission is more or less the industry standard.

https://www.analysisgroup.com/globa...etplaces_a_comparison_of_commission_rates.pdf

Bottom of Page 5:
Table 1: Commission Rates for Select App Stores
Google Play Store | 30% (15% for subscriptions after 12 months)

Amazon Appstore | 30% (20% for video streaming subscriptions)

Samsung Galaxy Store | 30% (or otherwise agreed-upon)

Microsoft Store | 30% on games | 30% on all sales in Business and Education stores | 30% for Windows 8 devices | 15% otherwise

Apple App Store | 30% (15% for subscriptions after 12 months)

This is not a 'monopoly'. It is the standard. For someone who was coming here, calling me 'ignorant' for an implied bias of hatred against Apple, you did little to none of the studying. I don't even need to continue this discussion, with this lot alone, I've proven that you attempted to gaslight the people of this community by trying to convince them that Apple/google somehow are the villains and sole group that holds this 30% commission rate. Not only that, you attempted to convince these people that my views were ignorant on the matter. The difference between you and me? I was ignorant before posting this, and still did my due diligence. You didn't.
 
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diggeloid

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I hate just about every company nowadays. Apple and Epic both are on my "Forbidden List". I shall not pay a penny to them, I forbid my family to the best of my ability from funding either. They're up there with Gamestop, Bethesda, EA, and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head but I damn well would seeing the company name.

That you're implying that my pov is 'biased' is attempting to discredit my view based on your own personal bias in favor of Epic. Case in point, throughout this whole topic I've made it a point that I hate Apple every darn bit as much. Yet somehow, you zero in on the idea my hatred for Epic in particular is exceptional. This is the furthest thing from the truth.



A monopoly is a structure in which a single supplier produces and sells a given product or service. If there is a single seller in a certain market and there are no close substitutes for the product, then the market structure is that of a "pure monopoly".

Is Apple the only seller of mobile games? No.
Is it the only one who provides a platform (service) to host mobile games on? No.
Are they the sort to conflict with competition? Yes. They will attempt to shut down any competition within their rights. As I have gone over, they have a horrible history with Right to Repair, yet as the law stands now, they are protected although that is changing.

There are *two* key points established to determine a monopoly:
  • A monopoly exists when there is only one producer and many consumers.
  • Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods.
Neither of these points can be distinguished as Apple.

Furthermore with some basic investigation into the subject of what the federal government deems a monopoly, the Sherman act covers:

(1) anticompetitive agreements and (2) unilateral conduct that monopolizes or attempts to monopolize the relevant market

Apple does not fall under 1. They are not forming agreements with other companies to shut out Google entirely.

And 2 we both know without a doubt Google isn't moving the goalpost in their favor.





I honestly don't buy this. It may be true, but anyone can claim "I am X working for Y". I can claim I'm Chris Barrett working for Bungie, and you couldn't really *prove* that without his aide (although "I" might be lying just to make the trail run cold that way).

Also, many companies will claim that a business' practices are anti-competitive simply because they can't win. A Ma and Pa shop cannot compete with a Walmart due to the scale of connections and resources the company has. This doesn't on its own necessarily make Walmart an anti-trust, as an example. Likewise, it's rare for an average or low level development to hold its own vs Apple due to similar issues - more/more experienced coders, for example. Being able to get assistance/deals with multiple company leaders. As long as they aren't making deals forbidding the aide/business with a competitor, then honestly it's not a monopoly.




The 30% Commission is more or less the industry standard.

https://www.analysisgroup.com/globa...etplaces_a_comparison_of_commission_rates.pdf

Bottom of Page 5:


This is not a 'monopoly'. It is the standard. For someone who was coming here, calling me 'ignorant' for an implied bias of hatred against Apple, you did little to none of the studying. I don't even need to continue this discussion, with this lot alone, I've proven that you attempted to gaslight the people of this community by trying to convince them that Apple/google somehow are the villains and sole group that holds this 30% commission rate. Not only that, you attempted to convince these people that my views were ignorant on the matter. The difference between you and me? I was ignorant before posting this, and still did my due diligence. You didn't.

I clearly wasted my time...
 

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I clearly wasted my time...
Clearly I wasted mine as you proved my point. I provided proof, links, etc to my statements. You posted things and expect us to believe you with no proof at all? Because it's you? Get over yourself. You want to come to an argument you bring proof. Your real identity means nothing, if it does, you'll know where to go to get any evidence you need to make your case.

I am not some sheep, I do not need a shepherd. What I need is evidence to make my own decisions without you telling me what to think. If your evidence is strong enough, you will change my logic. If you cannot provide enough evidence, then I will call you out on trying to gaslight.

Edit: The only time one needs to give an opinion is when two people debate the same source of evidence and its purpose. Case in point: the intent of the 1984tnite video. I have had a few debates on it now, and made my point on its intent. So I believe in common debating circles the term here is "Show me the Carfax"?
 
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chrisrlink

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I hate just about every company nowadays. Apple and Epic both are on my "Forbidden List". I shall not pay a penny to them, I forbid my family to the best of my ability from funding either. They're up there with Gamestop, Bethesda, EA, and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head but I damn well would seeing the company name.

That you're implying that my pov is 'biased' is attempting to discredit my view based on your own personal bias in favor of Epic. Case in point, throughout this whole topic I've made it a point that I hate Apple every darn bit as much. Yet somehow, you zero in on the idea my hatred for Epic in particular is exceptional. This is the furthest thing from the truth.



A monopoly is a structure in which a single supplier produces and sells a given product or service. If there is a single seller in a certain market and there are no close substitutes for the product, then the market structure is that of a "pure monopoly".

Is Apple the only seller of mobile games? No.
Is it the only one who provides a platform (service) to host mobile games on? No.
Are they the sort to conflict with competition? Yes. They will attempt to shut down any competition within their rights. As I have gone over, they have a horrible history with Right to Repair, yet as the law stands now, they are protected although that is changing.

There are *two* key points established to determine a monopoly:
  • A monopoly exists when there is only one producer and many consumers.
  • Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods.
Neither of these points can be distinguished as Apple.

Furthermore with some basic investigation into the subject of what the federal government deems a monopoly, the Sherman act covers:

(1) anticompetitive agreements and (2) unilateral conduct that monopolizes or attempts to monopolize the relevant market

Apple does not fall under 1. They are not forming agreements with other companies to shut out Google entirely.

And 2 we both know without a doubt Google isn't moving the goalpost in their favor.





I honestly don't buy this. It may be true, but anyone can claim "I am X working for Y". I can claim I'm Chris Barrett working for Bungie, and you couldn't really *prove* that without his aide (although "I" might be lying just to make the trail run cold that way).

Also, many companies will claim that a business' practices are anti-competitive simply because they can't win. A Ma and Pa shop cannot compete with a Walmart due to the scale of connections and resources the company has. This doesn't on its own necessarily make Walmart an anti-trust, as an example. Likewise, it's rare for an average or low level development to hold its own vs Apple due to similar issues - more/more experienced coders, for example. Being able to get assistance/deals with multiple company leaders. As long as they aren't making deals forbidding the aide/business with a competitor, then honestly it's not a monopoly.




The 30% Commission is more or less the industry standard.

https://www.analysisgroup.com/globa...etplaces_a_comparison_of_commission_rates.pdf

Bottom of Page 5:


This is not a 'monopoly'. It is the standard. For someone who was coming here, calling me 'ignorant' for an implied bias of hatred against Apple, you did little to none of the studying. I don't even need to continue this discussion, with this lot alone, I've proven that you attempted to gaslight the people of this community by trying to convince them that Apple/google somehow are the villains and sole group that holds this 30% commission rate. Not only that, you attempted to convince these people that my views were ignorant on the matter. The difference between you and me? I was ignorant before posting this, and still did my due diligence. You didn't.


on their computer end they definitely fall under 2 in more recent macs they installed the T2 security chip which prevents competition or rather 3rd party repair from doing their job essentially shutting out others from working on macs (without Apple's tools/software) look at nintendo/sony/microsoft as long as you don't modify hardware/software your free to replace/repair your consoles at the expense of voiding your warranty they dont go after 3rd party repair shops who does legit work (only modders)
 
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J-Machine

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The analogy has a flaw.

If there was only 1 franchise of stores in the world, would that be considered a monopoly? The one company owns all the stores in the world, and they force everyone to buy from them or go through them for sales. That's what's happening with Apple and their iOS devices. They are forcing people to only buy through their store, and will not allow any 'competition' unless they get a cut of it. There were companies that tried to do that in the past, and even Microsoft attempted that back in the early days of the Internet, trying to grab control and be the sole provider of computers within a geographic region. They got in serious trouble for that, so they had to branch out and stop stifling competing stores. Apple is doing that in a digital market. They can claim they are doing it to ensure the integrity of all of their apps, but that doesn't mean they are allowed to break Antitrust Laws.

I'm sorry have you forgotten google exists? that there are other os phones besides IOS? That they treat things in a similar fashion? There is a reason epic also wants to sue google. But at the end of the day they are using their OS and their store fronts. I'm sure if enough products moved away form apple instead of complaining and staying around then apple would be forced to change cause that's capitalism. The analogy still stands. They chose to sell there when they had an alternative: side load on android.
 

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on their computer end they definitly fall under 2 in more recent macs they installed the T2 security chip which prevents competition or rather 3rd party repair from doing their job essentially shutting out others from working on macs (without their tools/software) look at nintendo/sony/microsoft as long as you don't modify hardware/software your free to replace/repair your consoles at the expense of voiding your warranty they dont go after 3rd party repair shops who does legit work (only modders)

I don't see that as an issue under the current law. While again, scummy, and part of their anti-Right-to-Repair stance, there is nothing in current law stopping them from doing whatever they need to prevent 3rd party repair. Do i agree with it? No. But their stance is that releasing the repair info for their computers could infringe on their copyrights or whatever else, that's why this is meeting an effectively international level of resistance from both sides to get it repealed or secured. We may disagree with it, but the law currently is on their side. This requires law to be handled on an effectively national level, at the least, to get any change.

I have followed Louis Rossman's videos (there is no one video I suggest on the subject as he has probably hundreds by now: https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/featured ) on the subject for a good long while now, and while I'm no expert, I do understand this is, more or less, the stance they take, which is what makes it such a damned minefield making politicians hesitate from just approving right to repair. It also don't help Apple lobbies (which is also sadly not illegal) so heavily to ensure they keep their exclusivity.

The problem is as I have stated before, an issue with capitalism. The concept may have gotten us out of the stone age, roughly, but it is also doing a hell of a job preventing further progress as the overemphasis on the system has turned politics into 'just another business', allowing for legitimate political control through money. This is a systemic problem that cannot be easily overturned, and it does nothing to prove that Apple has an actual legal monopoly. At most it proves they are protective of their IP under current law, as scummy a damned excuse as that is. Blame the law, not the company, in this case. It's a similar problem to Lootboxes and Gambling, if you want a similar case we can relate to. We believe the shit's illegal, we WANT the shit illegal, but the law sadly does not view it as illegal due to a bunch of annoying technicalities.
 
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ZeroFX

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Hate to burst your bubble, but Apple is heavily-reliant on Chinese manufacturing to produce their hardware, which these days more likely than not means profiting from Uighur slave labor as well. So while Apple isn't 40% owned by Tencent like Epic is, China's government still wins no matter who loses in this particular lawsuit.
didnt burst my bubble, i know about apples manufacturing, and i dont care, i care about what i commented.
 

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Epic baited Apple into a lawsuit holy shit
They also published an animation about it to their YouTube channel and are looping it on Twitch

This is some next-level type baiting
and I love Epic Games for this, this coming from someone who used to think Fortnite was the plague
get fucked Apple :)

i saw that video on the switch version of fortnite completely not knowing it was removed from the App Store and Google Play. first thing I said was “What the fuck? is this a teaser for the next season? wait this is that apple commercial from the 80’s why they mentioning this?” to only then see the message at the end and i was like “oh i see now”
 

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It's a weird thing to say he "ignored" consoles. I feel like phones are far more open than an Xbox or Playstation.
the argument is over the stores themselves and consoles are just as closed as iphones and all three players have the same policies and 30% take. so should xbox, switch, and ps4 all open themselves to seperate storefronts to encourage competition?
 
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TheCasualties

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Just want to say it's not only game storefronts that screw over the producers.

When I sell my glass in a brick & mortar shop, they usually want 30 to 50, FIFTY PERCENT! And that's for consignment, Where I don't even see the money unless the piece sells in their store! If I'm selling wholesale I'll accept 30% pretty easy, since most places want 50%. Thankfully I found one shop that only takes 25%, and so I supply them with stuff.

And this isn't some product that is infinitely available, I can't just copy/paste and create a new piece. I have to work hard to make each single product.

So instead of getting rammed or jacking up my prices, I decided to sell it on my own direct to consumers. Which is why I like buying games on itch.io if possible, or directly buy steam keys where the devs get most, if not all, the money.

So in short.. capitalism sucks. Swap Life!
 
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I'm sorry have you forgotten google exists? that there are other os phones besides IOS? That they treat things in a similar fashion? There is a reason epic also wants to sue google. But at the end of the day they are using their OS and their store fronts. I'm sure if enough products moved away form apple instead of complaining and staying around then apple would be forced to change cause that's capitalism. The analogy still stands. They chose to sell there when they had an alternative: side load on android.
Please read every discussion I had on this thread. I clearly stated that there other phones, and my analogy was meant to be taken as a hypothetical, not a literal. Please avoid picking a single statement out of a massive amount of text to then take out of context. It doesn't help anyone's arguments, only makes everyone hate one another more.
 

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    While the victims are being buried
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Grave shovel
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Nuh those goto the edge of the property (maybe just on the other side of)
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    On the neighbors side
    +1
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Yup, by the weird smelly green bushy looking plants.
    K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2: https://www.the-sun.com/news/10907833/self-checkout-complaints-new-target-dollar-general-policies...