Am I the only person with consistent views? (COVID19/abortion)

Lacius · Aug 11, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
>people with breathing problems wear masks
"Keep it on or you'll kill me!"
>black man gets arrested for drug abuse and counterfeiting
"What the hell are you doing?! He can't even breathe!"

People with asthma aren't negatively affected by wearing masks, and they can breathe just fine with a mask. COVID-19 can be far worse for an asthmatic person than it might be for someone without asthma.
If you want to talk about a hypothetical person who cannot wear a mask, those people can wait outside stores and have things brought to them, etc. Many businesses offer these types of accomodations, regardless of whether or not they have a medical reason for not wearing a mask. Are you arguing that people should be required to wear masks unless they have a medical excuse? I somehow doubt it.
Kneeling on a person's neck, however, can be fatal. I didn't think I had to explain this, and I have a feeling you're not taking this conversation seriously.

UltraSUPRA said:
How is it not a baby, though?

There are many physiological differences between the various stages of embryonic and fetal development, including but not limited to when a heartbeat starts, when brain development starts, etc. I'll let you research those differences yourself.
It also doesn't matter. As I said earlier, a woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps whatever lifeform is attempting to violate it. A consistent person cannot argue against legal access to abortion while simultaneously arguing against mandatory organ donation.

UltraSUPRA said:
1. Dennis Prager has been taking Hydroxychloroquine himself to avoid getting the Holocough.
2. The Lancet in England and the NE Journal of Medicine here in the US have been forced to take down articles against Hydroxychloroquine because they were based purely on politics.
3. Big Pharma is against Hydroxychloroquine because it's too cheap compared to Remdesivir.
4. Doctors are keeping people in the first stages of the Holocough.
5. Many of the doctors advocating for Hydroxychloroquine are real doctors.
6. People are dying because they're not getting Hydroxychloroquine.
7. Dennis Prager takes Hydroxychloroquine because it works.
8. The studies you believe in don't use zinc, or they use it too late, or they use too much.

Your use of the word Holocough is anti-semitic, and I'm not going to respond to any future posts that use it.
Many of these are anecdotes, and the plural of anecdote is not data.
Saying things like "people are dying because they aren't getting hydroxychloroquine" or "he takes hydroxychloroquine because it works" when you're defending the claim that hydroxychloroquine works is circular reasoning.
"Many of the doctors advocating for Hydroxychloroquine are real doctors" suggests some of the doctors arguing in favor of hydroxychloroquine are actually fake doctors.
There are studies that show hydroxychloroquine to be ineffective that use zinc. I suggest you do actual research instead of perusing conservative blogs for links to sources that claim to support your preconceived notions motivated by politics, because the "studies aren't using zinc" conspiracy theory is actually a myth.

FAST6191 · Aug 11, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
How is it not a baby, though?

Much like a caterpillar is not a butterfly but a developmental stage along the way then a foetus is not a baby but a stage along the way.

The longer you wait the more it resembles a baby, and the more capacity it is assigned but a baby tends to be the thing that happens after it is born alive (whether pushed out or sliced out).

Still though why are we free to use all the contraceptives we like but as soon as either the sperm touches the egg, or maybe the combined thing implants are we looking at drawing a line? Seems pretty arbitrary. As does heartbeats.

Lacius said:
[*]Your use of the word Holocough is anti-semitic, and I'm not going to respond to any future posts that use it.

How?
Is it not just a funny phrase to refer to an event? See also kung flu, boomer remover, the coof, the rona...
There are also other mass killings using the phrase holo (see holodomor for one).

UltraSUPRA · Aug 11, 2020

Lacius said:
I have a feeling you're not taking this conversation seriously.

I'm not. I can't take anything seriously when this world has become an Orwellian dystopia where the life of an elder is more important than the life of a baby.

Except Sweden.

Lacius said:
It also doesn't matter. As I said earlier, a woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps whatever lifeform is attempting to violate it. A consistent person cannot argue against legal access to abortion while simultaneously arguing against mandatory organ donation.

You heard him. Cannibalism is A-OK.

Lacius · Aug 11, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
I'm not [taking this conversation seriously].

Then I don't see why I should respond to you after this.

UltraSUPRA said:
I can't take anything seriously when this world has become an Orwellian dystopia where the life of an elder is more important than the life of a baby.

A fetus is not a baby. Nobody is talking about the life of an old person being more valuable than the life of a baby. We're talking about minimizing deaths due to COVID-19, regardless of age (COVID-19 can kill young people, too). Also, I'm not sure why people like you are arguing against mandatory masks when the two likely options are either mandatory masks or complete shutdowns like we had before.

The fact that we are in a pandemic doesn't mean it's inconsistent to continue to advocate for a woman's right to bodily autonomy. I find it interesting you didn't address my mandatory organ donor analogy.

UltraSUPRA said:
You heard him. Cannibalism is A-OK.

When I did bring up or advocate for cannibalism?

UltraSUPRA · Aug 11, 2020

Lacius said:
Also, I'm not sure why people like you are arguing against mandatory masks when the two likely options are either mandatory masks or complete shutdowns like we had before.

Have you heard of Sweden?

Lacius said:
When I did bring up or advocate for cannibalism?

You said it's okay to kill someone if they're inside your body.

FAST6191 · Aug 11, 2020

Lacius said:
A fetus is not a baby. Nobody is talking about the life of an old person being more valuable than the life of a baby. We're talking about minimizing deaths due to COVID-19

We are, or at least that aside was more looking at the abortion debate (which I might consider going for a separate thread, or brining back one of the more focused ones from more recent times) is.

Equally I would happily state I value the life of an fully grown person over a baby, even more so a foetus that can't think, appreciate pain or particularly be said to have suffered any.
If playing medic give me enough resources to save a 21 year old or a 2 week old and 21 year old, full recovery either way and the 21 year old is my choice in almost every occasion (especially with no additional qualifying information, and I would sleep like a baby that night as well).
Far more resources, time, effort and attachments would have been sunk into the 21 year old.
New babies. Millions of those are made every year. In most cases the same people that made the baby could biologically have a new one in under a year, though it might take a bit more than that.

smf · Aug 11, 2020

The poll is a bit dumb, its completely consistent to be pro choice but pro enforced mask wearing.

Mask wearing isn't to protect them, it's to protect me. The embryo isn't a me yet. The mask wearer can do whatever the hell they want on their own time.

Pro choice is a balance, it's not black and white. What a load of pro life people completely miss out on, is if they give people a fair and balanced choice then they may decide more often than not to actually keep it.

But their misguided and blinkered view means that people rush in scared and more abortions happen.

Not that they care, the pro life seems more about trying to exert control over others rather than preventing abortions. Once you realize that religion was purely made up to control people as a form of tribalism then you kinda start looking at morals completely differently.

GhostLatte · Aug 11, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
Yes, masks are effective, but they shouldn't be mandatory. Hydroxychloroquine has been supported by many doctors, and the studies that claim it won't work likely don't use zinc, or they use too much, or they give it too late.

As for abortion, a woman has no right to kill a baby.

When you’re a woman, you can decide what women can and cannot do with their bodies.

FAST6191 · Aug 11, 2020

GhostLatte said:
When you’re a woman, you can decide what women can and cannot do with their bodies.

I have never got that line of logic. Do we have to delineate for those that never had the equipment (injury and disease), are too old at this point, are too young (either to have functional equipment or does bleeding once a month despite being 12 confer master moral debate abilities, maybe just for one area, I was not aware of?), and generally we allow people to discuss things and weigh up points from everybody.

JaapDaniels · Aug 12, 2020

Lacius said:
On what basis?

1st it's treated not based on statistics that it helps. the logic is like the bible tells me to follow Jesus: if it doesn't kill you why don't you?
so if it's not really based on truth finding it's as good as any religion, and so it should be treated.
2nd yes i do believe the mask could help (so you might missjudged me early), i just don't see it working like it's used now. people use it as an argument to not having to keep thier distance wich will increase the spreading. then comes miss use people are not educated on how to use the mask treat it like a paint/fume mask wich wouldn't hurt if they put it on in one go just only touching the elastics en don't touching the actual filter.
by touching the outside of the filter you could already putting the virus on the outside of a mask, since most masks are not sterelized or anything this will mean this group of the virus will live and spread on the mask, wich will mean you're even worse off then without a mask on.
so unless there's gona be education around the use of a mask it's not of any help.
unless it's treated as an extra procation it's not helping.
the way it's treated around the world now it's not helping us, it's helping the virus.

Lacius · Aug 12, 2020

JaapDaniels said:
1st it's treated not based on statistics that it helps. the logic is like the bible tells me to follow Jesus: if it doesn't kill you why don't you?
so if it's not really based on truth finding it's as good as any religion, and so it should be treated.
2nd yes i do believe the mask could help (so you might missjudged me early), i just don't see it working like it's used now. people use it as an argument to not having to keep thier distance wich will increase the spreading. then comes miss use people are not educated on how to use the mask treat it like a paint/fume mask wich wouldn't hurt if they put it on in one go just only touching the elastics en don't touching the actual filter.
by touching the outside of the filter you could already putting the virus on the outside of a mask, since most masks are not sterelized or anything this will mean this group of the virus will live and spread on the mask, wich will mean you're even worse off then without a mask on.
so unless there's gona be education around the use of a mask it's not of any help.
unless it's treated as an extra procation it's not helping.
the way it's treated around the world now it's not helping us, it's helping the virus.

The science is clear that face masks retain most of the respiratory droplets released from the wearer through talking, etc., and this makes them effective at reducing COVID-19 transmission, since SARS-CoV-2 is primarily spread via respiratory droplets. They're effective at preventing the wearer from spreading COVID-19 to other people, and they're somewhat effective at preventing the wearer from contracting COVID-19 from someone else.

This isn't a faith-based belief like religion. Anyone who can wear a mask should wear a mask in public, and governments can and should mandate the use of masks.

JaapDaniels · Aug 12, 2020

Lacius said:
The science is clear that face masks retain most of the respiratory droplets released from the wearer through talking, etc., and this makes them effective at reducing COVID-19 transmission, since SARS-CoV-2 is primarily spread via respiratory droplets. They're effective at preventing the wearer from spreading COVID-19 to other people, and they're somewhat effective at preventing the wearer from contracting COVID-19 from someone else.

This isn't a faith-based belief like religion. Anyone who can wear a mask should wear a mask in public, and governments can and should mandate the use of masks.

it still is as long as this is the best defence you got my stand is still the same, i gotta take your word for it is not science.
plus i get it you didn't read it al through for you already made up your mind.
plus ever since we started talking about masks the numbers went up here, not down.

Lacius · Aug 12, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
Have you heard of Sweden?

Yes, but we are not Sweden. As of now, there are three options I see in the United States:

Masks
Shutdown
Allow people to get sick and die

I'm not sure what reasonable person would look at this list and say, "Hey, let's pick any option other than masks."

UltraSUPRA said:
You said it's okay to kill someone if they're inside your body.

That's not what I said.
Person A has a right to bodily autonomy, even if Person B would die without access to Person A's body.
With regard to abortion, we're not even talking about people. We are talking about fetuses and embryos.

JaapDaniels said:
it still is as long as this is the best defence you got my stand is still the same, i gotta take your word for it is not science.
plus i get it you didn't read it al through for you already made up your mind.
plus ever since we started talking about masks the numbers went up here, not down.

With all due respect, this and you're last post aren't very coherent, and I'm having trouble deciphering your point. As a result, I can only respond to the statements I think I can make sense of. For example, you should not "take my word for it that it's not science," because I said it was science.

There is no correlation between mask usage and an increase in positive cases. The opposite is true.

Deleted User · Aug 12, 2020

....What the hell does one thing have to do with the other?

UltraSUPRA · Aug 12, 2020

Lacius said:
Yes, but we are not Sweden. As of now, there are three options I see in the United States:

Masks

Shutdown

Allow people to get sick and die

If we're at a point where the choice is between freedom and life, then sacrifices are necessary. The Revolutionary War was fought during a smallpox epidemic.

Lacius said:
Person A has a right to bodily autonomy, even if Person B would die without access to Person A's body.

What happened to "one person's rights end when another begins"?

Lacius · Aug 12, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
If we're at a point where the choice is between freedom and life, then sacrifices are necessary. The Revolutionary War was fought during a smallpox epidemic.

You're arbitrarily ignoring the freedom to not be infected with COVID-19 by a mask denier in the middle of a pandemic.

Also, how physically weak are mask deniers that they compare the oppression fought against in the Revolutionary War with wearing a mask?

UltraSUPRA said:
What happened to "one person's rights end when another begins"?

It didn't go anywhere. A person has a right to life, but that right to live ends where a person's right to bodily autonomy begins. You have a right to life, but that right to life ends as soon as it becomes contingent upon me being forced to donate a compatible kidney to you. I get to decide if I'm donating my kidney to you, regardless of the consequences of my inaction.

UltraDolphinRevolution · Aug 12, 2020

Lacius said:
With regard to abortion, we're not even talking about people. We are talking about fetuses and embryos.

How does someTHING become someBODY/-ONE though?
Is it self-reliance? Than babies aren´t someone.
Is it relatedness? The DNA is there from the beginning.
Is it being alive? Cell division happens very early.

In the end, the value is given by others. But then a person in a coma who has a shot at recovery is "something" if the relatives or the community do not want to invest in the costs. If we cannot force the mother to turn something into someone (i.e. give birth), then how can we force the father to do so (i.e. forced labor to invest in the child*)
*according to my knowledge in many countries the father is forced to pay for child support, even if the child was the product of semen theft by the mother!
*in some cases even the non-biological father is forced into slavery if he was the husband at the time(!)

UltraSUPRA · Aug 12, 2020

Lacius said:
You're arbitrarily ignoring the freedom to not be infected with COVID-19 by a mask denier in the middle of a pandemic.

The wusses can stay home. The rest of us who aren't so scared about getting sick shouldn't have to wear masks.

Lacius said:
Also, how physically weak are mask deniers that they compare the oppression fought against in the Revolutionary War with wearing a mask?

What? If anything, the problem is that we've been weakened. What I was trying to say is that while our founding fathers, during a pendemic, fought in a war, we, as modern Americans (and people from other countries), are too afraid to do so much as socialize without a mattress strapped to our mouths.

Lacius said:
It didn't go anywhere. A person has a right to life, but that right to live ends where a person's right to bodily autonomy begins. You have a right to life, but that right to life ends as soon as it becomes contingent upon me being forced to donate a compatible kidney to you. I get to decide if I'm donating my kidney to you, regardless of the consequences of my inaction.

The loss of a kidney lasts forever. A pregnancy lasts nowhere near as long, though I don't know how long nor will I ever have any personal experience.

0x3000027E · Aug 12, 2020

UltraDolphinRevolution said:
(unless it threatens the life of the mother, etc)

The pro-life supporters always add this statement in parenthesis, with a hand-wave:
(unless she is raped, unless her life is at risk, unless the baby's life is at risk, etc).
Exactly as you have done here. You gloss over these "exceptions", when they actually reveal the problem with pro-life policy. Namely, that to enforce a pro-life policy, we will have to subject woman to a trial/court hearing to be held by some committee, in order to prove that the woman had, in fact, been raped, in mortal danger, etc.

This is a clear violation of the health and privacy of the individual you are interrogating. It is also no place for a government committee.

The soul, a human life -- where/when it "begins" -- when is consciousness "turned-on"; these are all philosophical discussions with no concrete answer. However, the woman you want to interrogate is a living human being, an individual, and that is no longer a philosophical debate. That you have government officials peer into her personal medical history and violate her certain human rights for the sake of your philosophical argument is questionable, to say the least!

To stand against abortion is not a problem, to be sure. To live by that code is also not an issue. To draft legislation, allowing the government to prevent others from doing it is your folly.

Now, how the fuck are we supposed to compare abortion to wearing masks?!

Lacius · Aug 12, 2020

UltraDolphinRevolution said:
How does someTHING become someBODY/-ONE though?

When I talk about personhood, I typically refer to one's sapience and sentience, as well as the legal rights we grant them.

UltraDolphinRevolution said:
In the end, the value is given by others. But then a person in a coma who has a shot at recovery is "something" if the relatives or the community do not want to invest in the costs. If we cannot force the mother to turn something into someone (i.e. give birth), then how can we force the father to do so (i.e. forced labor to invest in the child*)
*according to my knowledge in many countries the father is forced to pay for child support, even if the child was the product of semen theft by the mother!
*in some cases even the non-biological father is forced into slavery if he was the husband at the time(!)

A man isn't having his rights to bodily autonomy violated when he's designated partially responsible for the baby he helped create. Child support also isn't slavery. That's hyperbolic nonsense.

UltraSUPRA said:
The wusses can stay home. The rest of us who aren't so scared about getting sick shouldn't have to wear masks.

If someone were to argue against laws against public nudity, would you say the same thing?
The wusses can stay home. The rest of us who aren't so scared about seeing other people's genitals shouldn't have to wear clothes.

UltraSUPRA said:
What? If anything, the problem is that we've been weakened. What I was trying to say is that while our founding fathers, during a pendemic, fought in a war, we, as modern Americans (and people from other countries), are too afraid to do so much as socialize without a mattress strapped to our mouths.

You do know that social distancing and quarantining occurred during the epidemic you're speaking of, yes?

UltraSUPRA said:
The loss of a kidney lasts forever. A pregnancy lasts nowhere near as long, though I don't know how long nor will I ever have any personal experience.

First, the duration of a violation of one's bodily autonomy is irrelevant. Second, the effects of a pregnancy, solely with regard to a woman's body, can absolutely be lifelong.

Am I the only person with consistent views? (COVID19/abortion)

Are you consistent with regards to abortion and mask-wearing?

Yes, their bodies, their choices!

No, I am pro-choice [abortion], but for enforced mask-wearing in public.

Yes, let us not be careless about human life!

No, I am pro-life [abortion] but against mandatory mask-wearing in public.

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