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Identity politics in the German language
- Thread starter UltraDolphinRevolution
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Elephant in the room is, that this none of this is relevant nor will it ever catch much traction.
Afair the gender star *Innen got officially introduced in university writing codification, although the 'doctrine' should still be, that you should gender - so even using the old Binnen-I (SomethingInnen) should be fine, and if you don't gender at all, afair there shouldnt be repercussions either.
Outside of the university level you don't see it anywhere - and none of it should get traction outside the realm of academia/public administration. Watched a bunch of Chomsky recently, so I use his argument. In linguistics there seems to be a grammatical structure hardbaked into/discerning from the way we learn languages. Previous attempts at introducing formal language that circumvented that (in terms of grammatical structure) all failed (to essentially garner any traction).
While those elongated words in the german language are a 'known feature' of that language, the amount of repetition you'd have to go through, if you follow all of those rules, alone should make it entirely impossible that this will be picked up in a broader fashion.
And this is something we know for quite some time, stuff gets developed/dreamed up at the university level - and to then get it adopted by society at large - it first is pushed as mandatory, where you can convince institutions - but to ultimately succeed, it needs catalysts. There have been many similar projects in the past - every one of them tried to be made 'compulsory' one way or another - and they all pretty much failed in the popular realm.
If you look at the wikipedia entry (german) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendersternchen you can also see, that adoption has been sparse so far.
Those things come an go. Its largely not as you represented it, that it would get worse, and worse - as time goes on.
At least not in practice.
Afair the gender star *Innen got officially introduced in university writing codification, although the 'doctrine' should still be, that you should gender - so even using the old Binnen-I (SomethingInnen) should be fine, and if you don't gender at all, afair there shouldnt be repercussions either.
Outside of the university level you don't see it anywhere - and none of it should get traction outside the realm of academia/public administration. Watched a bunch of Chomsky recently, so I use his argument. In linguistics there seems to be a grammatical structure hardbaked into/discerning from the way we learn languages. Previous attempts at introducing formal language that circumvented that (in terms of grammatical structure) all failed (to essentially garner any traction).
While those elongated words in the german language are a 'known feature' of that language, the amount of repetition you'd have to go through, if you follow all of those rules, alone should make it entirely impossible that this will be picked up in a broader fashion.
And this is something we know for quite some time, stuff gets developed/dreamed up at the university level - and to then get it adopted by society at large - it first is pushed as mandatory, where you can convince institutions - but to ultimately succeed, it needs catalysts. There have been many similar projects in the past - every one of them tried to be made 'compulsory' one way or another - and they all pretty much failed in the popular realm.
If you look at the wikipedia entry (german) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendersternchen you can also see, that adoption has been sparse so far.
Those things come an go. Its largely not as you represented it, that it would get worse, and worse - as time goes on.
At least not in practice.
Last edited by notimp,
Can I quote you on that in a few years?
Been following the German takes on various silliness we see coming out of US universities for a while now and generally it seems about 5-10 years behind the curve.
Teach some kids some bollocks today and when they turn around get jobs spouting nonsense in online rags, HR jobs or "diversity officer" type stuff in 5 years-10 years they have a nasty habit of bringing it with them.
Yes, thats the circle. Establish curriculums in academia, make them mandatory. Teach a bunch of less critical minds, have them carry it into the workforce. (Also subjectively yes on germany being 5 years behind whatever the current trend in the US is. *snark*)
There are two things in my favor - one, repetition and extreme impracticability in the form it is represented in the OP (thats too much, no normal person, ...), and two - we already see a counterculture in the US, that has correctly identified, that some of the 'ideas' of identity politics currently get pushed in corporate america, because it keeps the workforce from asking actual questions in terms of economic developments within the corporate sector.
I'd book this under 'academia bubble', and will fail spectacularly if pushed more forcefully onto a general public. (In the form it is presented in the OP, or similar.)
Also - we already had a 'polite' form of gendering in 'official language' that more people seem to like, than the form where you start to put asterisk all over your nouns - established in the eighties. (Binnen-I)
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnen-I
There are two things in my favor - one, repetition and extreme impracticability in the form it is represented in the OP (thats too much, no normal person, ...), and two - we already see a counterculture in the US, that has correctly identified, that some of the 'ideas' of identity politics currently get pushed in corporate america, because it keeps the workforce from asking actual questions in terms of economic developments within the corporate sector.
I'd book this under 'academia bubble', and will fail spectacularly if pushed more forcefully onto a general public. (In the form it is presented in the OP, or similar.)
Also - we already had a 'polite' form of gendering in 'official language' that more people seem to like, than the form where you start to put asterisk all over your nouns - established in the eighties. (Binnen-I)
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnen-I
Last edited by notimp,
That´s not exactly true. I can report several instances where superiors have told other employees to gender Emails.
Also, there are universities which insist on it. Not doing it results in your thesis being given a bad grade or dismissed altogether.
D
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God, everything is "identity politics" nowadays. Even rioters are now labeled as "peaceful protesters".
I just don't care anymore. 2020 is a garbage year.
I just don't care anymore. 2020 is a garbage year.
Thats the first time I hear about 'bad grade or dismissed altogether'. If you have links, I'm interested.
From a corporate ID POV I can believe that superiors are pressuring employees. (Thats more or less the point of having it made mandatory on some institutions institutional level. (My only counterpoint there is, it didnt get much traction. (Not many are doing it (asterisks variant).))
Last edited by notimp,
translation:
In Germany, every university now has a guide to what is known as gender-appropriate language; Students and lecturers are encouraged to observe this. But there is no threat of mandatory sanctions if the requirements are not met - at least not officially. According to research by “Heise”, teachers who threaten non-men with a point deduction are not only available at the TU Berlin, but also at the Berlin Humboldt University, at the Geschwister-Scholl-Institute of the Munich Ludwig Maximilians University the University of Hamburg, the University of Salzburg, the University of Applied Sciences St. Pölten and the University of Applied Sciences of the Vienna Vocational Promotion Institute. The news4teachers editorial team is also aware of universities at which “gender refusers” are threatened by individual lecturers with lower grades.
https://www.news4teachers.de/2015/0...gsdruck-wer-nicht-gendert-bekommt-punktabzug/
University legal department told the student that was told, that he had to use gendered language, that there was no such legal requirement.
Prof made it up.
But Prof also makes up your grade...
Soft power in action.
Prof made it up.
But Prof also makes up your grade...
Soft power in action.
The different plurals of words simply come from different influences.
It is not the same as syntax errors.
I like him.
I like she.
Unless "her" disappears from the English languages, there is a logical error in this sentence. It does not matter how many people make this logical error. This was a made up example, but let me give you sth people actually say:
She likes us.
She likes you and I.
It should obviously be "you and me" or "me and you". "you and I" has gained a lot of popularity in the last 5 to 10 years. It has replaced the more casual "you and me". But neither is correct or incorrect, it depends on the grammatical context!
Last edited by UltraDolphinRevolution,
@UltraDolphinRevolution It's almost as if these words were deconstructed to re-purpose their meaning! Where have I seen that... yuck.
Anyway, thank you for the knowledge and sharing such excellent points!. It's so easy to deconstruct what is already deconstructed... that ends up in actually building a constructive meaning to things.
Anyway, thank you for the knowledge and sharing such excellent points!. It's so easy to deconstruct what is already deconstructed... that ends up in actually building a constructive meaning to things.
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