Suikoden is getting a spiritual successor developed by its original creators

HeartfeltDesu · Jul 26, 2020

Bladexdsl said:
more screenshots here. looks like it's both 2d and 3d?

Of course. Octopath got popular doing it, so now everyone has to do it.

Clydefrosch · Jul 26, 2020

medoli900 said:
Welcome to the world of old~ish JRPG. It's not for nothing that it took a while for JRPGs to make ways into international territory, since the general market found the games "too hard". Also the reason why "Casual" mode exist in Fire Emblem games now.

with design flaws like this, of course people weren't happy

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

IsaOfTheWorlds said:
Of course. Octopath got popular doing it, so now everyone has to do it.

3d world with sprites was the go to for many old rpgs

HeartfeltDesu · Jul 26, 2020

Clydefrosch said:
3d world with sprites was the go to for many old rpgs

To be fair, though, many of them did it because of technical limitations. To do it in 2020 is to play to nostalgia, and doing 3D world with sprites as a deliberate, nostalgic aesthetic choice is a trend that I see beginning with Octopath Traveler. It's not necessarily bad, but a lot of aesthetic choices centered around nostalgia deal in things which were originally simply a product of the limits of technology. Pixel art was done by necessity, and now is a nostalgic aesthetic choice. And the same is happening with 3D world/2D sprites. I don't think it's bad, but I will absolutely acknowledge that a lot of games are going to do it specifically because Octopath did it.

GuyInDogSuit · Jul 26, 2020

I'm with Chary on this one. I might actually back this one! Well, it would honestly be... the second project, I've funded, I think. But I loved the old Genso Suikoden games and this excites me.

Bladexdsl said:
more screenshots here. looks like it's both 2d and 3d?

Nice! Gives me Octopath Traveler vibes, and that's a good thing. Though OT was all pixel-art. Heh.

Silent_Gunner · Jul 26, 2020

GameSystem said:
I remember being super pissed off during my play-through of the first game because I got to a certain point where you couldn't level up any of your characters nor swap their gear, and then suddenly the co-main character had a duel with the general of the enemy and permadied. All it would take was one random battle to get the co-main character to the appropriate level because of how exp works in that game, but he was 20 levels under and also had no gear, so there were no amount of tactics or save scumming that could possibly save him. I didn't have any saves from like 2 hours back, so I had to continue and beat the game from there. I had no reason to start Suikoden II, because that dude was dead and I had an incomplete save. I've pretty much never touched anything from the series again after that. If they make this game, I hope they don't have stupid mechanics like that, because I hate having to need a guide to play through a game to make sure I don't screw myself.

Wait, so the MC in the OG Suikoden can kick the bucket and you don't get a game over? Or is it game over when both bite the bullet?

And which games of the Suikoden series should I play, assuming I can have time to play anything this year given how my schedule's about to get shat all over with OT at my current job?

Like, I know there's the 5 main games, but then you have the Tactics spin-off, even though I thought there's some parts where you have to go and play a sRPG in Suikoden already from some screenshots of the game where you have multiple soldiers charging at each other with in-game graphics during a gameplay segment, so...

GuyInDogSuit · Jul 26, 2020

Silent_Gunner said:
Wait, so the MC in the OG Suikoden can kick the bucket and you don't get a game over? Or is it game over when both bite the bullet?

And which games of the Suikoden series should I play, assuming I can have time to play anything this year given how my schedule's about to get shat all over with OT at my current job? Like, I know there's the 5 main games, but then you have the Tactics spin-off, even though I thought there's some parts where you have to go and play a sRPG in Suikoden already from some screenshots of the game where you have multiple soldiers charging at each other with in-game graphics during a gameplay segment, so...

The first two are the only ones I've played, and many say those are where the series really shines. If you have access to those (and these days most people do), I highly recommend starting with those.

Silent_Gunner · Jul 26, 2020

IsaOfTheWorlds said:
To be fair, though, many of them did it because of technical limitations. To do it in 2020 is to play to nostalgia, and doing 3D world with sprites as a deliberate, nostalgic aesthetic choice is a trend that I see beginning with Octopath Traveler. It's not necessarily bad, but a lot of aesthetic choices centered around nostalgia deal in things which were originally simply a product of the limits of technology. Pixel art was done by necessity, and now is a nostalgic aesthetic choice. And the same is happening with 3D world/2D sprites. I don't think it's bad, but I will absolutely acknowledge that a lot of games are going to do it specifically because Octopath did it.

Here's my opinion on it:

With Bloodstained: ROTN, they should have just gone full pixel art. I know, "but pixel artists are hard to find, rare, expensive, etc." I've seen MUGEN conversions of characters from 3D games (think Jin Kazama from Tekken, Dormammu from UMVC3 (who's way more awesome looking than that fucking CGI face...thing in the Doctor Strange movie, Deadpool from the same game, Ghost Rider, any SF4 character) that look really close to what you might have seen back in the day, albeit maybe with the usual touch-ups that a paid employee could provide, but still.

I think going 2.5D with that game is what killed it on the main system that I think the target audience was getting it for: the Switch. Personally, I would have played the game on the Switch if it didn't run like shit and if I hadn't already completed the game on PC...where the game's visuals just don't really hold up. Like, sure, I know i t was improved from that one backer demo, but even with said improvements, what you have is a game that's structurally fine, it has all the charm a big budget IGAvania would have had that may have been fine on an Xbox 360/PS3...but on PS4? With performance issues to boot? I mean, that one boss fight in the Digital Foundry video with the base PS4 and him doing that one attack shouldn't have caused the framerate to take a shit if they had optimized the performance for the system. Like, make the fragments of chips being destroyed all 2D as opposed to real-time 3D renderings.

I still think it's a great game, but the only reason it didn't burn as hard as Mighty No. 9 is because they didn't try to fund another project completely different from the main one (the retro throwback one was already a stretch goal from what I remember), and they didn't have a translator be all like, "yeah, we didn't get everything we wanted done, but it's better than nothing, right? RIGHT!?" *Mega Man 11 boss music plays* on top of something as cringeworthy as this:

HeartfeltDesu · Jul 26, 2020

Silent_Gunner said:
Here's my opinion on it:

With Bloodstained: ROTN, they should have just gone full pixel art. I know, "but pixel artists are hard to find, rare, expensive, etc." I've seen MUGEN conversions of characters from 3D games (think Jin Kazama from Tekken, Dormammu from UMVC3 (who's way more awesome looking than that fucking CGI face...thing in the Doctor Strange movie, Deadpool from the same game, Ghost Rider, any SF4 character) that look really close to what you might have seen back in the day, albeit maybe with the usual touch-ups that a paid employee could provide, but still.

I think going 2.5D with that game is what killed it on the main system that I think the target audience was getting it for: the Switch. Personally, I would have played the game on the Switch if it didn't run like shit and if I hadn't already completed the game on PC...where the game's visuals just don't really hold up. Like, sure, I know i t was improved from that one backer demo, but even with said improvements, what you have is a game that's structurally fine, it has all the charm a big budget IGAvania would have had that may have been fine on an Xbox 360/PS3...but on PS4? With performance issues to boot? I mean, that one boss fight in the Digital Foundry video with the base PS4 and him doing that one attack shouldn't have caused the framerate to take a shit if they had optimized the performance for the system. Like, make the fragments of chips being destroyed all 2D as opposed to real-time 3D renderings.

I still think it's a great game, but the only reason it didn't burn as hard as Mighty No. 9 is because they didn't try to fund another project completely different from the main one (the retro throwback one was already a stretch goal from what I remember), and they didn't have a translator be all like, "yeah, we didn't get everything we wanted done, but it's better than nothing, right? RIGHT!?" *Mega Man 11 boss music plays* on top of something as cringeworthy as this:

I think we're talking about two totally opposite kinds of 2.5D.

We're talking about games with 3D worlds, that are played in 3D on a 3D plane but characters are rendered as 2D sprites. See: Octopath Traveler.

You're talking about the inverse kind of 2.5D. Characters are rendered in 3D, but they play on a 2D plane. Similar to the Klonoa series, or... well, Bloodstained.

And while I would be interested in talking more about either sort of 2.5D visual styles, I don't think a post on Suikoden is the place to do that. If you would like to send me a DM where we could talk about Bloodstained: ROTN, or if you want to make a post about it, I'd gladly chime in, but I think that the topic is a little tangential to the point of this post.

Silent_Gunner · Jul 26, 2020

IsaOfTheWorlds said:
I think we're talking about two totally opposite kinds of 2.5D.

We're talking about games with 3D worlds, that are played in 3D on a 3D plane but characters are rendered as 2D sprites. See: Octopath Traveler.

You're talking about the inverse kind of 2.5D. Characters are rendered in 3D, but they play on a 2D plane. Similar to the Klonoa series, or... well, Bloodstained.

And while I would be interested in talking more about either sort of 2.5D visual styles, I don't think a post on Suikoden is the place to do that. If you would like to send me a DM where we could talk about Bloodstained: ROTN, or if you want to make a post about it, I'd gladly chime in, but I think that the topic is a little tangential to the point of this post.

I was more trying to say that I think these companies, ESPECIALLY KS projects, need to consider better what systems to port things to, what promises to make and when, and to focus on the mainstream systems before trying to port to everything else. It's why Shovel Knight has been on basically every platform 7th generation and beyond and Mighty No. 9...has been relegated to being a joke no one wants to play.

Hey, at least Bloodstained COTM got a sequel!

eyeliner · Jul 26, 2020

GameSystem said:
I remember being super pissed off during my play-through of the first game because I got to a certain point where you couldn't level up any of your characters nor swap their gear, and then suddenly the co-main character had a duel with the general of the enemy and permadied. All it would take was one random battle to get the co-main character to the appropriate level because of how exp works in that game, but he was 20 levels under and also had no gear, so there were no amount of tactics or save scumming that could possibly save him. I didn't have any saves from like 2 hours back, so I had to continue and beat the game from there. I had no reason to start Suikoden II, because that dude was dead and I had an incomplete save. I've pretty much never touched anything from the series again after that. If they make this game, I hope they don't have stupid mechanics like that, because I hate having to need a guide to play through a game to make sure I don't screw myself.

From someone who played the first game more hours than FFVII (and that was not an easy task) pay attention to what the attacker says in the duel.
The sentences are the key to what they are going to do. Level is not important there. You can make it without taking a single hit.

I never managed to end the second because my PSX was dying at the time and the first army battle lagged pretty much.

Suikoden I is my favorite PSX game. The complete ending... Is something to behold.

scroeffie1984 · Jul 26, 2020

is it worth playing the series ?

CactusMan · Jul 26, 2020

If you´re into RPG´s it´s fine, back in the day it had some ground breaking mechanics. But if you like Final Fantasy 6, Wild Arms, Lufia etc.
I recoment using bug fix patches on the psx games.

Missing Number · Jul 26, 2020

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

damnit konami release ur IPs from your sweaty stinky deathgrip already........... we've got a story spanning decades and centuries, hate for all that to be abandoned......... sure i love bloodstained.... but its still a painful reminder its not castlevaniaa

that being said, this looks good.......... just aa shame it wont be paart of that lore and we wont be seeing any returning ccharacters

no viki, no jeane, no ted, flik, victor, luk.......

Bladexdsl · Jul 26, 2020

It doesn't seem like Konami is making video games anymore and are just focusing on their Pachinko, Slot Machine, and other video gambling machines business they have.

GameSystem · Jul 26, 2020

medoli900 said:
Welcome to the world of old~ish JRPG. It's not for nothing that it took a while for JRPGs to make ways into international territory, since the general market found the games "too hard". Also the reason why "Casual" mode exist in Fire Emblem games now.

The game was a cakewalk, the problem is getting screwed out of a 100% because you neglected a single character because he sucks and you have like 100+ people to choose from. He is the only character in the history of the series to get a duel when he's not the main character.

Silent_Gunner said:
Wait, so the MC in the OG Suikoden can kick the bucket and you don't get a game over? Or is it game over when both bite the bullet?

It's Pahn that duels and he gets executed if you lose and you continue the game as normal.

eyeliner said:
From someone who played the first game more hours than FFVII (and that was not an easy task) pay attention to what the attacker says in the duel.
The sentences are the key to what they are going to do. Level is not important there. You can make it without taking a single hit.

It may be like that for future games, but in the first one, you would still take damage even if you choose the superior option. Pahn was totally ungeared and like level 20 or something. Even a perfect counter would still have me lose most of my hp and Teo would lose like 5%. A bad option would just be a one-shot.

eyeliner · Jul 26, 2020

GameSystem said:
It may be like that for future games, but in the first one, you would still take damage even if you choose the superior option. Pahn was totally ungeared and like level 20 or something. Even a perfect counter would still have me lose most of my hp and Teo would lose like 5%. A bad option would just be a one-shot.

It was the first. Never played the rest because Europe.

I had the idea that you had only three options:
Defend, Counter Attack and Attack. (kind of rock, paper, scissors)

On defense, you'd get hit. On counter, you'd dodge and deal some damage, and attack is up to the AI's stance if you'd get hit or not, but I haven't played the game for quite a while now and I'm probably misremembering something.

altorn · Jul 26, 2020

coolest 18-second 2.5D turn based battle system trailer i've ever seen.

mightymuffy · Jul 26, 2020

GameSystem said:
The game was a cakewalk, the problem is getting screwed out of a 100% because you neglected a single character because he sucks and you have like 100+ people to choose from. He is the only character in the history of the series to get a duel when he's not the main character.

It's Pahn that duels and he gets executed if you lose and you continue the game as normal.

It may be like that for future games, but in the first one, you would still take damage even if you choose the superior option. Pahn was totally ungeared and like level 20 or something. Even a perfect counter would still have me lose most of my hp and Teo would lose like 5%. A bad option would just be a one-shot.

Obviously if you liked the game enough (as I did) you made sure on a second playthrough that you'd powered Pahn up as high as you can go (within reason), and he would win the bout though?? Because you weren't gonna 100% the game on your first go anyway, unless you used a guide (and thus knew to power Pahn up as a result)
To call this a design flaw, or whatever you're trying to say, is ridiculous....

eyeliner · Jul 26, 2020

scroeffie1984 said:
is it worth playing the series ?

The first two, yes. The first is, for me, the best RPG on the PSX. For that reason, I couldn't sell the doulogy I own.

The rest are apparently a little weaker by comparison, but alas, I never was able to get them.

mightymuffy said:
Obviously if you liked the game enough (as I did) you made sure on a second playthrough that you'd powered Pahn up as high as you can go (within reason), and he would win the bout though?? Because you weren't gonna 100% the game on your first go anyway, unless you used a guide (and thus knew to power Pahn up as a result)
To call this a design flaw, or whatever you're trying to say, is ridiculous....

The problem was never Pahn. It was Gremio and damned Clive.

Jayro · Jul 26, 2020

Might as we just make it a sequel at this point.

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