Hacking Kosmos is no more

nero99 · May 13, 2020

evertonstz said:
To the people glad a project got down due to toxicity, remember toxicity is a double edged sword. People should just learn to ignore things they don't like, just like most fully developed adults would. Don't know if the community is mainly composed by kids or the console just attracts more immature people or something like that. But I think most people will agree this community isn't normal.

Anyone wanna place bets on what will be the next project to bite the dust?

I am going to bet that it will be ReiNX. We already lost Neutos a few days ago, now kosmos. pretty soon sx os will be the last one standing.

ZachyCatGames · May 13, 2020

Itsuki235 said:
1. Incorrect. For the emuMCC entry, it could be set up as payload= and have the same functionality. Only the sysnand CFW entry needed the fss0= syntax. The emuMMC CFW entry never did.
2. Except that there is no reason to disable them, especially with emuMMC CFW, and most people just wanted them to always load and everything to just work "out of the box". Thus fss0= style booting is best off unused most of the time, and absolutely should not be the default setting.
3. True, except when it is false, which it is for a certain piece of very important software that implements CSE when it detects Haruko's patches.ini. Again, people do not care about ideological about why this or that doesn't work or why they shouldn't be using that piece of software. With "payload=" syntax everything works, which (unfairly) but nonetheless does mean that "fss0=" style booting is needlessly complicated for people.
4. Atmosphere doesn't support fss0= style booting, only Hekate does which is why it is a hack, because Atmosphere does not natively support it. The part where hekate needs to get updated to use that "fss0=" syntax (but not for payload= syntax) is a litmus test for why "fss0=" style booting a hack. There is nothing wrong with it being a hack in and of itself, but it is a hack: an way of obtaining functionality that the software program was never intended to have.

See #1.

It is a con because it does not need to be used for that boot entry. payload= syntax would not change the behavior of that boot entry and using fss0= for the "CFW EMUMMC" boot entry needlessly complicates loading of patches for that boot entry.

That boot entry is also the one that everyone was basically always trying to use so it was the de-facto "default" boot entry. Team Atlas had no technical need to break things by including fss0= style booting in that boot entry and yet they did so anyway.

I do agree with you that Team Atlas did a lot of positive things for the scene, especially for new users, but using that "fss0=" style booting instead of "payload=" for that boot entry did a lot of harm. In terms of how the technology works, the scene will benefit from being united now compared to before because the principle entity that supported that technologically inferior way to boot atmosphere in an emuMMC CFW configuration (primary one for many people) will be dropping its support for it.

Hopefully that will lesson the need for 2 different sets of patches needing to be maintained going forward.

4. It's not a hack, and it is an officially supported AMS feature. Support had to intentionally be added in Atmosphere for it to work.

Itsuki235 · May 13, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
4. It's not a hack, and it is an officially supported AMS feature. Support had to intentionally be added in Atmosphere for it to work.

Source?

ZachyCatGames · May 13, 2020

Itsuki235 said:
Source?

Changelog for 0.8.5 and here's the commit that added it https://github.com/Atmosphere-NX/Atmosphere/commit/be772b40e1f12680597c4ad27548c9c08d7d877a
https://github.com/Atmosphere-NX/Atmosphere/commit/be772b40e1f12680597c4ad27548c9c08d7d877a

- Content headers were added for the embedded files inside of fusee-secondary.
  - This will allow non-fusee bootloaders (like hekate) to extract the components bundled inside release binaries.
  - This should greatly simplify the update process in the future, for users who do not launch Atmosphère using fusee.

Itsuki235 · May 13, 2020

Alright I stand corrected. It looks like the ReSwitched team has provided support for "fss0=" style booting in the past.

However, a semi-supported hack it is still a hack because it meets the definition: it is a way of obtaining functionality that the software program was never intended to have. A semi-supported hack is still a hack. If you want, and so we are not getting stuck on a particular word, you are free to think of it as a "kludge" instead. Both words convey the same meaning here about how technologically appropriate fss0= style booting is. Due to the hacky nature that it words, it creates more problems than it solves in modern iterations of Hekate and there is a much better supported alternative (payload=).

Also note that hekate had the ability to extract modules from fusee-secondary prior to 0.8.5 so your conclusion that support had to be added to Atmosphere is incorrect/misleading because atmosphere-side support did not actually have to be added. The reSwitched team just made booting that way easier.

ZachyCatGames · May 13, 2020

Itsuki235 said:
Alright I stand corrected. It looks like the ReSwitched team has provided support for "fss0=" style booting in the past.

However, a semi-supported hack it is still a hack because it meets the definition: it is a way of obtaining functionality that the software program was never intended to have. A semi-supported hack is still a hack. If you want, and so we are not getting stuck on a particular word, you are free to think of it as a "kludge" instead. Both words convey the same meaning here about how technologically appropriate fss0= style booting is. Due to the hacky nature that it words, it creates more problems than it solves in modern iterations of Hekate and there is a much better supported alternative (payload=).

Also note that hekate had the ability to extract modules from fusee-secondary prior to 0.8.5 so your conclusion that support had to be added to Atmosphere is incorrect/misleading because atmosphere-side support did not actually have to be added. The reSwitched team just made booting that way easier.

~~It didn't work in hekate until 0.8.5 released. Scires works with CTCaer on some of this stuff and the hekate release just happened to come out before the AMS release.~~
Edit: Actually, wait, where'd you get that info from. 0.8.5 came out a few days before hekate 4.9 & the commit was made in AMS first (the hekate commit: https://github.com/CTCaer/hekate/commit/f139f9c56f2e01dccc0e119eebc5f0cf3e8a729a)

Edit 2: and it does not cause problems lol

Itsuki235 · May 13, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
It didn't work in hekate until 0.8.5 released. Scires works with CTCaer on some of this stuff and the hekate release just happened to come out before the AMS release.

I am saying it is misleading because it did work, just not on those newest (at that moment) versions of atmosphere/hekate.

The atmosphere versions prior to 0.8.5 were bootable using hekate's fss0= syntax so simplying saying "It didn't work in hekate until [atmosphere] 0.8.5" is misleading. Or are you saying it is not a hack/kludge? If you are thinking that a supported hack is an oxymoron then look up the definition of kludge.

ZachyCatGames · May 13, 2020

Itsuki235 said:
I am saying it is misleading because it did work, just not on those newest (at that moment) versions of atmosphere/hekate.

The atmosphere versions prior to 0.8.5 were bootable using hekate's fss0= syntax so simplying saying "It didn't work in hekate until [atmosphere] 0.8.5" is misleading. Or are you saying it is not a hack/kludge? If you are thinking that a supported hack is an oxymoron then look up the definition of kludge.

Read my edits. I rewrote most of it as you were wrong about the release dates.
And pre-0.8.5 releases will not and cannot work with it lol.

Itsuki235 · May 13, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
Read my edits. I rewrote most of it as you were wrong about the release dates.
And pre-0.8.5 releases will not and cannot work with it lol.

I am not sure where the disconnect is. Are we talking past one another?

If Atmosphere was not able to be booted using hekate prior to 0.8.5 (2019 Mar 7) then why does the Hekate change log for v2.1 (2018Jun01) say that it fixed CFW booting for OFW 1.0 nearly a year prior?

Fix booting into CFW for 1.0.0
Relocated security monitor to leave a lot of free space for hekate

Source: hekate - ipl (CTCaer mod v2.1)

Clearly Hekate was able to boot CFW prior to 0.8.5. Kosmos's first release on the "current" was on 2018June04. That said, I don't have the documentation to be able to claim such booting was fss0= style and the 2018June04 release of Kosmos did not use it. Do you know one way or another? As in can you cite it or is it just about opening 100x old versions of Kosmos to figure out when they started messing with it?

ZachyCatGames said:
Edit 2: and it does not cause problems lol

The problems that it creates were already quoted by you in your first response to one of my posts.

ZachyCatGames · May 13, 2020

Itsuki235 said:
I am not sure where the disconnect is. Are we talking past one another?

If Atmosphere was not able to be booted using hekate prior to 0.8.5 (2019 Mar 7) then why does the Hekate change log for v2.1 (2018Jun01) say that it fixed CFW booting for OFW 1.0 nearly a year prior?

Source: hekate - ipl (CTCaer mod v2.1)

Clearly Hekate was able to boot CFW prior to 0.8.5. Kosmos's first release on the "current" was on 2018June04. That said, I don't have the documentation to be able to claim such booting was fss0= style and the 2018June04 release of Kosmos did not use it. Do you know one way or another? As in can you cite it or is it just about opening 100x old versions of Kosmos to figure out when they started messing with it?

The problems that it creates were already quoted by you in your first response to one of my posts.

Wat. None of this has anything to do with what I said. Obviously hekate was able to boot CFW before, I never at any point said it couldn't (I was actually using atmos with hekate back then myself, since hekate CTCaer mod v1.3.0).
fss0 was not a thing in hekate and atmos in a release until March 9th 2019 and March 7th 2019 respectively, which was what I was referring to.

Itsuki235 · May 13, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
Wat. None of this has anything to do with what I said. Obviously hekate was able to boot CFW before, I never at any point said it couldn't (I was actually using atmos with hekate back then myself, since hekate CTCaer mod v1.3.0).
fss0 was not a thing in hekate and atmos in a release until March 9th 2019 and March 7th 2019 respectively, which was what I was referring to.

Ah okay, that explains a lot. I assumed that Hekate always supported booting Atmosphere via "fss0=". I will update my original post to reflect that.

Kosmos v11.11 Counting Down

-Updated Hekate
--Hekate now supports launching fusee-secondary, meaning that you can now drag and drop atmosphere releases and use them together with Kosmos! - Kosmos Github 2019Mar08

So that implies that the original reasons for Tinfoil's CSE are different than fss0= style booting, which is consistent with some other stuff. However that doesn't explain why Kosmos bothered supporting it in the first place if it was not necessary originally, or did "payload=" not work at that point? In my testing it worked, but autobooting was borked. Autobooting via "payload=" in hekate has been fixed since then. It seems related to OFW 7.0.0 that was released in late January 2019, which made Atmosphere require /sept/ to complete booting.

However, I checked and prior versions of Kosmos (in 2018Dec) do include code like "secmon=modules/required/exosphere.bin" implying that Kosmos was messing with Atmosphere's modules prior to "fss0=" and that "fss0=" loading syntax for launching fusee-secondary was simply a continuation of that.

So, does that mean that Hekate always supported loading extra modules, but not necessarily booting through fusee-secondary until /sept/ was also required for OFW 7.0.0 or are /sept/ and "fss0=" unrelated?

Rahkeesh · May 13, 2020

angelo93 said:
I've been going through the releases for Atmosphere, Hekate and Kosmos to see how to go about building my own setup, the only hangup I have is the that the reboot_payload.bin for Kosmos is bigger than the one that comes with stock Atmosphere. If anyone knows why and can explain, I'd greatly appreciate it.

My understanding was that reboot_payload.bin *should* be the same as the payload you inject, if you want reboot to payload to work as expected. On vanilla atmosphere that is fusee-primary, on kosmos it is hekate, which is a payload with far more features.

angelo93 · May 13, 2020

Rahkeesh said:
My understanding was that reboot_payload.bin *should* be the same as the payload you inject, if you want reboot to payload to work as expected. On vanilla atmosphere that is fusee-primary, on kosmos it is hekate, which is a payload with far more features.

Thanks for the answer! I should've figured since that logically makes sense and the file sizes are the same. Have a good one!

Nemix77 · May 13, 2020

Just hope I didn't cause this with my postings...

I really liked Kosmos however with the newer firmware (10.0.x) and patches, Kosmos does not play nice with some apps and sysmodules.

I went from Atmosphere/Hekate 9.2.0 to Kosmos/Hetake 9.2.0 and now on vanilla Atmosphere/Fusee 10.0.2 in under a months time (have a lot of free time with this pandemic).

Just testing the waters since I'm still new to the Switch hacking scene.

x65943 · May 13, 2020

Please keep it civil guys, I'm asking again

TunaKetchup · May 13, 2020

Nemix77 said:
Just hope I didn't cause this with my postings...

I really liked Kosmos however with the newer firmware (10.0.x) and patches, Kosmos does not play nice with some apps and sysmodules.

I went from Atmosphere/Hekate 9.2.0 to Kosmos/Hetake 9.2.0 and now on vanilla Atmosphere/Fusee 10.0.2 in under a months time (have a lot of free time with this pandemic).

Just testing the waters since I'm still new to the Switch hacking scene.

The problem is that people think any FW that can't access Tinfoil HGB shop is obsolete

Take away Tinfoil and all the custom firmware offer the same thing which is homebrew and backups.

Just go with whatever is working the best for the things you want to do

Naxster · May 13, 2020

WiiHomebrew+Snes said:
Someone falsely said that the port was done by AtlasNX, and so the theory is that they don't want Nintendo to get involved and are sick of stupid things like that.

Dam, that's actually sad... I mean even in the gaming community, people have become more and more toxic to eachother instead of helping :/

ZachyCatGames · May 13, 2020

Itsuki235 said:
Ah okay, that explains a lot. I assumed that Hekate always supported booting Atmosphere via "fss0=". I will update my original post to reflect that.

Kosmos v11.11 Counting Down

So that implies that the original reasons for Tinfoil's CSE are different than fss0= style booting, which is consistent with some other stuff. However that doesn't explain why Kosmos bothered supporting it in the first place if it was not necessary originally, or did "payload=" not work at that point? In my testing it worked, but autobooting was borked. Autobooting via "payload=" in hekate has been fixed since then. It seems related to OFW 7.0.0 that was released in late January 2019, which made Atmosphere require /sept/ to complete booting.

However, I checked and prior versions of Kosmos (in 2018Dec) do include code like "secmon=modules/required/exosphere.bin" implying that Kosmos was messing with Atmosphere's modules prior to "fss0=" and that "fss0=" loading syntax for launching fusee-secondary was simply a continuation of that.

So, does that mean that Hekate always supported loading extra modules, but not necessarily booting through fusee-secondary until /sept/ was also required for OFW 7.0.0 or are /sept/ and "fss0=" unrelated?

Prior to fss0, kosmos just had all the Atmosphere kips and secmon binary in some folder and specified them in the hekate config file. They switched to fss0 because it's easier to maintain/use (one file vs like 7, and using it made compiling AMS no longer a requirement for booting AMS via hekate) and has the exact same end result (only difference is the kips, secmon and lp0fw are grabbed from fusee-secondary.bin at the offsets specified in fusee secondary's header instead of grabbing them from whatever directory on the sd card).
And they used it instead of payload=whatever.bin because it gives you the advantages of booting with hekate (namely, faster boot times, modern hekate is significantly faster than fusee has ever been/will be), and Kosmos/Sdfile's thing has always been booting using hekate

The tinfoil shit has something to do with hekate's different patching system & blawar not liking it for whatever reason. Or something like that, I don't know (or care)

regnad · May 13, 2020

Nemix77 said:
Just hope I didn't cause this with my postings...

I really liked Kosmos however with the newer firmware (10.0.x) and patches, Kosmos does not play nice with some apps and sysmodules.

I went from Atmosphere/Hekate 9.2.0 to Kosmos/Hetake 9.2.0 and now on vanilla Atmosphere/Fusee 10.0.2 in under a months time (have a lot of free time with this pandemic).

Just testing the waters since I'm still new to the Switch hacking scene.

I need to move on from Kosmos myself now.

Is there a reason to use Atmosphere/Fusee primary instead of chainloading Hekate? Wouldn’t using Hekate give you more options?

Tokiwa · May 13, 2020

regnad said:
I need to move on from Kosmos myself now.

Is there a reason to use Atmosphere/Fusee primary instead of chainloading Hekate? Wouldn’t using Hekate give you more options?

Instead of chainloading with hekate why not just push fusee-primary directly? The end result is the same, i personally only push hekate when i need to boot stock or backup/restore my nand.

Hacking Kosmos is no more

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