Bernie Sanders drops out of Presidential Race

Xzi · Apr 10, 2020

Foxi4 said:
I wasn't talking specifically about Miller, I was talking about your movement's tendency to call any form of opposition an expression of Nazi sentiment, which makes the word overplayed and meaningless.

The exact same could be said of the right wing and their tendency to call anything and everything left of center "communism." There are still plenty of people out there who do self-identify as fascists or communists though, and those words still have meaning even despite being misused often.

Foxi4 said:
As far as Miller is concerned, he has some bizarre reading habits which include American Renaissance, but he also reads Shapiro, so you could just say that he's "aligned with the far right" and your comment wouldn't be so giggle worthy. Now, the reason why he can't be a Nazi is rather simple - that particular team wouldn't accept him on the roster, Miller is Jewish. Nazis and the Jews, they don't play along, see. He *might* be a white supremacist, or he might have some racist prejudices, but I don't think he advocates for a National Socialist ethnostate considering the fact that he'd be first in line to be ejected from it.

I'm fully aware that he's Jewish. Much in the same way the protagonist in The Believer is Jewish (and self-hating).

SG854 said:
And people can come up with ways to vote online now, so that no one has to go out. Online may be subject to manipulation but considering the fact that were are in a pandemic I'm sure people can make an exception for this election.

The subject of national mail-in ballots has been broached several times in the last few days, but Trump has shut it down immediately every time. He's repeatedly said the quiet part out loud too, that "there would never be another Republican president" if voting were made more accessible. Very few states have that kind of easy access right now, and we have decades of voter suppression tactics to thank for that.

Foxi4 · Apr 10, 2020

Xzi said:
The exact same could be said of the right wing and their tendency to call anything and everything left of center "communism." There are still plenty of people out there who do self-identify as fascists or communists though, and those words still have meaning even despite being misused often.

I'm fully aware that he's Jewish. Much in the same way the protagonist in The Believer is Jewish.

First point is fair. Second point, perhaps not the best one to make when you've just been told that you overuse the term to the point of making many of the accusations seem fictional. Fair enough though.

Waygeek · Apr 10, 2020

Xzi said:
This type of "enlightened centrism" is exactly why your candidate failed to win a single state in the primary. Just keep on thinking the people who want a second bill of rights enacted for the benefit of the working class are exactly the same as white nationalists and neo-nazis. That's a good way to quickly find yourself with zero allies in any given political struggle.

America is not the world, though you yanks certaintly think so. I, thankfully, am not american, therefore I am statistically less likely to be an extremist.

I would also be a progressive, if a label needed to be attached to it. I know how you yanks love your labels.

You are the only extremist in this thread that I can see, unless there's some maga pepes I'm not seeing.

Maybe don't be an extremist.

Xzi · Apr 10, 2020

Waygeek said:
America is not the world, though you yanks certaintly think so. I, thankfully, am not american, therefore I am statistically less likely to be an extremist.

Maybe don't be an extremist.

Now you're just being completely nonsensical. Bernie's policies are center-left at best by European and world standards. Warren would be center-right by those same standards. Neither is in any way "extreme."

Foxi4 · Apr 10, 2020

Xzi said:
Now you're just being completely nonsensical. Bernie's policies are center-left at best by European and world standards. Warren would be center-right by those same standards. Neither is in any way "extreme."

A +90% tax rate for "the 1%" is not "center-left" by any European standard. Venezuelan standard, maybe, but not European. If Sanders' plan was enacted, the absolute peak of the income scale would face an effective tax rate of 97.5%. They'd immediately move all of their assets abroad, as you and I would if we were in their shoes. All of that money disappears from the system, along with all of the job opportunities they provide to "the poor" you seem to care about. Sometimes less is more if you want a healthy economy, @Xzi.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...could-face-tax-rates-up-to-97-5-under-sanders

Xzi · Apr 10, 2020

Foxi4 said:
A +90% tax rate for "the 1%" is not "center-left" by any European standard. Venezuelan standard, maybe, but not European. If Sanders' plan was enacted, the absolute peak of the income scale would face an effective tax rate of 97.5%. They'd immediately move all of their assets abroad, as you and I would if we were in their shoes. All of that money disappears from the system, along with all of the job opportunities they provide to "the poor" you seem to care about. Sometimes less is more if you want a healthy economy, @Xzi.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...could-face-tax-rates-up-to-97-5-under-sanders

Considering he was one of the people egregiously misusing and directing the term "communist" at Sanders, Bloomberg is a particularly biased and untrustworthy source in this case, don't you think?

Even by American standards, a top tax rate of 70% used to be considered typical and not particularly noteworthy. Y'know, back when a single full-time job could support a family of four and the American dream was actually achievable. Sanders' plan would put the top tax bracket at closer to 50%, so not even nearly a return to form in that regard.

Also, the Panama Papers showed us that the wealthy are already doing everything in their power to avoid paying taxes, regardless of effective tax rate. Slashing taxes as the Trump administration has done simply ensures that they pay absolutely nothing, and it leaves us with insufficient stimulus funds in an emergency.

Foxi4 · Apr 10, 2020

Xzi said:
Considering he was one of the people egregiously misusing and directing the term "communist" at Sanders, Bloomberg is a particularly biased and untrustworthy source in this case, don't you think?

Even by American standards, a top tax rate of 70% used to be considered typical and not particularly noteworthy. Y'know, back when a single full-time job could support a family of four and the American dream was actually achievable. Sanders' plan would put the top tax bracket at closer to 50%, so not even nearly a return to form in that regard.

Also, the Panama Papers showed us that the wealthy are already doing everything in their power to avoid paying taxes, regardless of effective tax rate. Slashing taxes as the Trump administration has done simply ensures that they pay absolutely nothing, and it leaves us with insufficient stimulus funds in an emergency.

The top tax bracket and the effective tax rate are not one and the same - you're omitting deductibles. Your camp likes to call them "loopholes", but in reality they're intentional tax relief. In the 1950's the top bracket was 91%, but the effective tax rate was somewhere around 42%. That's the difference between stimulating the economy and slitting its throat.

https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/

Xzi · Apr 10, 2020

Foxi4 said:
Your camp likes to call them "loopholes", but in reality they're intentional tax relief.

That's the difference between raging against the machine and raging on behalf of the machine, I suppose. I simply can't find the motivation to do the mental gymnastics necessary to justify the world's largest corporations, such as Amazon and Apple, paying zero in taxes. The rich and the powerful seemingly don't even have to pretend any more that the US has anything other than a trickle-up economy. Not when so many people living in trailer parks are brainwashed enough to defend that brand of oligarchy.

Foxi4 · Apr 10, 2020

Xzi said:
That's the difference between raging against the machine and raging on behalf of the machine, I suppose. I simply can't find the motivation to do the mental gymnastics necessary to justify the world's largest corporations, such as Amazon and Apple, paying zero in taxes. The rich and the powerful seemingly don't even have to pretend any more that the US has anything other than a trickle-up economy. Not when so many people living in trailer parks are brainwashed enough to defend that brand of oligarchy.

They don't "pay zero" in taxes, plural. In 2019 Amazon paid:

$1b in federal income tax ($900m deferred, but still payable)
$2.4b in other federal taxes (payroll, customs etc.)
$1.6b in local and state taxes (property, gross receipts etc.)
$9b in sales and use taxes (collected and remitted on behalf of their Marketplace users, preventing lost tax revenue)

Even in the years when the company did pay zero in the federal income tax, they paid other taxes just fine, both on the federal and local level. The idea that they're operating "for free" is ridiculous - it's stupid when Sanders says it, it's stupid when Trump says it. The company is single-handedly keeping the USPS afloat, 40% of Amazon packages are handled by the postal service, they're pumping the institution with money and yet USPS still manages to fumble and post losses. It's almost as if it was inefficient and a private entity would've done a better job.

https://blog.aboutamazon.com/job-creation-and-investment/amazons-economic-impact-in-the-u-s

Xzi · Apr 11, 2020

Foxi4 said:
They don't "pay zero" in taxes, plural. In 2019 Amazon paid:

$1b in federal income tax ($900m deferred, but still payable)

$2.4b in other federal taxes (payroll, customs etc.)

$1.6b in local and state taxes (property, gross receipts etc.)

$9b in sales and use taxes (collected and remitted on behalf of their Marketplace users, preventing lost tax revenue)

https://blog.aboutamazon.com/job-creation-and-investment/amazons-economic-impact-in-the-u-s

Yet another difference between the left and the right, I can't simply take Amazon's own PR website at face value. Assuming these numbers are at all accurate, they still aren't accounting for how much Amazon takes right back out of the government honeypot, or how little Bezos pays in taxes on a personal level. I equate it to that BP ad campaign they ran patting themselves on the back for cleaning up a disaster they were entirely to blame for creating in the first place.

Foxi4 said:
It's almost as if it was inefficient and a private entity would've done a better job.

It's almost as if packages aren't the only things sent through the mail. Neither UPS nor FedEx nor any other private entity is jumping at the chance to deliver letters, because they know they'd post much bigger losses than USPS during the attempt. Just like with Medicare, it's far more efficient without the profit motive's interference, so Republicans have to consistently underfund both programs in order to make them appear to be failing. At least to people whose only "research" on the topic entails watching Fox News.

Foxi4 · Apr 11, 2020

Xzi said:
Yet another difference between the left and the right, I can't simply take Amazon's own PR website at face value. Assuming these numbers are at all accurate, they still aren't accounting for how much Amazon takes right back out of the government honeypot, or how little Bezos pays in taxes on a personal level. I equate it to that BP ad campaign they ran patting themselves on the back for cleaning up a disaster they were entirely to blame for creating in the first place.

It's almost as if packages aren't the only things sent through the mail. Neither UPS nor FedEx nor any other private entity is jumping at the chance to deliver letters, because they know they'd post much bigger losses than USPS during the attempt. Just like with Medicare, it's far more efficient without the profit motive's interference, so Republicans have to consistently underfund both programs in order to make them appear to be failing. At least to people whose only "research" on the topic entails watching Fox News.

You can find their figures in their 10-K, which they post anually. The 10-K is a legal requirement that must be posted to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. It's a rather boring read, but go nuts if you want to do some extensive research - it's a public document available on sec.gov. Keep in mind that Amazon is an international corporation - they don't just pay taxes in the U.S., the company pays taxes in every country they operate in. You have to make a provision for that before you tax them at a ridiculous rate.

As far as Bezos himself is concerned, why are you interested in his money? It belongs to him. The general sentiment of "we need to take the money away from the billionaires" is nothing more than envy, you can dress it up if you want but ultimately you think he has "too much money" and you're somehow in deservement of it. You're under the mistaken impression that you would spend it better than he does, or that the government would, when in reality he seems to have a history of investing it well - y'know, on account of him being a billionaire. Of course I do know that this falls on deaf ears, I understand that you believe this money is the result of exploiting workers and so on and so forth, so I won't really explore the subject further since this is a thread about Sanders, who is a millionaire himself.

Sanders' net worth is estimated to be $2.5m, so he's very much in the millionaire class he rails against. He has the *option* to refuse his senator's salary of $174k annually to ensure that his wage, paid for with people's taxes, goes towards government initiatives, but he hasn't done that. He *could* live off of his book royalties, which amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars according to his tax returns, but doesn't. Why is that, @Xzi? Is Sanders also too rich, or are we only upset at the productive rich people who generate jobs and provide worthwhile services?

You know how it goes - "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye"? Perhaps the Sanders fan base should put his feet to the fire regarding his own wealth before they follow him into an even bigger fire at the detriment of the economy, both domestic and global.

Waygeek · Apr 11, 2020

Xzi said:
Now you're just being completely nonsensical. Bernie's policies are center-left at best by European and world standards. Warren would be center-right by those same standards. Neither is in any way "extreme."

Again, no, you just don't like to hear it.

I didn't call Bernie anything.

I called his stans extremists.

Which they are.

And you're one of them.

Also no, he'd be very 'left' in most of the world, including Europe.

morvoran · Apr 11, 2020

BORTZ said:
You don't send volunteer workers into a garbage dump to "clean up". That would be a waste of resources and frankly, irresponsible.

I don't think the entire site is a garbage dump. That's not a nice thing to say. Unless my report button has been disabled, I have reported posts in other sections and the posts are still there. That's why I made that comment.

Plus, haven't you heard of that Republican guy who went into Baltimore and Los Angeles and cleaned up those garbage dump cities with several others who volunteered their time? Maybe we need more right wing mods here to get things done? *Shrugs*

Hanafuda · Apr 11, 2020

Foxi4 said:
They don't "pay zero" in taxes, plural. In 2019 Amazon paid:

$1b in federal income tax ($900m deferred, but still payable)

$2.4b in other federal taxes (payroll, customs etc.)

$1.6b in local and state taxes (property, gross receipts etc.)

$9b in sales and use taxes (collected and remitted on behalf of their Marketplace users, preventing lost tax revenue)

Even in the years when the company did pay zero in the federal income tax, they paid other taxes just fine, both on the federal and local level. The idea that they're operating "for free" is ridiculous - it's stupid when Sanders says it, it's stupid when Trump says it. The company is single-handedly keeping the USPS afloat, 40% of Amazon packages are handled by the postal service, they're pumping the institution with money and yet USPS still manages to fumble and post losses. It's almost as if it was inefficient and a private entity would've done a better job.

https://blog.aboutamazon.com/job-creation-and-investment/amazons-economic-impact-in-the-u-s

Corporate taxes are just passed on to the consumer anyway, built into the price of the goods or services the company provides. If you use Amazon, you're paying their taxes. Do you want to pay more?

Viri · Apr 11, 2020

Remember kids, Reddit/Twitter =/= IRL

Just because someone is super popular on Reddit, and just because something trends countless times on Twitter doesn't mean it's popular on the outside. The outside and the online world are completely different. Twitter and Reddit are some of the biggest echo chambers. If IRL thought like Twitter and Reddit, Bernie would have swept all the states. When in reality, Bernie's voters couldn't get off their asses and vote in droves. Also, black people really like Biden a lot more than Bernie.

Xzi · Apr 11, 2020

Foxi4 said:
You're under the mistaken impression that you would spend it better than he does

You're under the mistaken impression that he spends it at all instead of hoarding it in various offshore bank accounts and tax havens. Thus there is no debate that the working class would spend it "better," they have to spend it in order to procure the necessities, which in turn ends up supporting businesses both large and small. Bezos couldn't spend all his money in one hundred lifetimes if he tried, and he's not trying.

Foxi4 said:
Sanders' net worth is estimated to be $2.5m, so he's very much in the millionaire class he rails against. He has the *option* to refuse his senator's salary of $174k annually to ensure that his wage, paid for with people's taxes, goes towards government initiatives, but he hasn't done that. He *could* live off of his book royalties, which amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars according to his tax returns, but doesn't. Why is that, @Xzi? Is Sanders also too rich, or are we only upset at the productive rich people who generate jobs and provide worthwhile services?

His net worth was below 1 million before he released his book, and writing said book was more work than 95% of American CEOs have done in their entire lifetime. Trump is a prime example, having never once faced the consequences of his actions and managing to fail his way to the very top every step of the way. Average Americans don't get billion-dollar credit lines from foreign banks that they can simply refuse to pay back because of how much influence their daddies hold.

Again this argument is disingenuous anyway, since if Bernie was destitute and leaving nothing for his family you'd leap at the chance to attack him for that. Not to mention Bernie never once stated he wouldn't be paying the same tax rate he planned to impose on other millionaires. I can only wager a guess that you assume every politician on Earth is a hypocrite because all the politicians you've thrown your support behind have proven themselves as such.

Waygeek said:
I called his stans extremists.

Which is a meaningless generalization with no evidence to back it. A lot of Bernie supporters are on the younger side and will be voting for the first time in this election. If it only took 18 years to radicalize every single one of them, then America is far more fucked up than Bernie gives it credit for.

Hanafuda said:
Corporate taxes are just passed on to the consumer anyway, built into the price of the goods or services the company provides. If you use Amazon, you're paying their taxes. Do you want to pay more?

To some extent this is true, but death and taxes are both inevitable anyway. The working class may as well get something back for the taxes they put in, rather than continuing to give all of their taxes to corporations.

Viri · Apr 11, 2020

Also, another thing. Here is a bit of a piece of advice. If you're ever running for any office, never ever ever ever let anyone in the audience or in public high jack your microphone during a speech. It makes you look very very weak.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Xzi said:
Warren hired a bunch of ex-Hillary staffers and then failed to win her own home state.

The back stabbing to Bernie was pretty fucked up. Also, she really let Trump get into her head. Her countless rants on Twitter, and when she got a DNA test, which pissed off Native Americans was pretty cringe worthy. For days that's all she fucking spoke about, was paragraphs on Twitter about him pissing her off. It just became embarrassing after a point. Also, it turns out that most Americans on this board are most likely more "Native American" than she is.

chrisrlink · Apr 11, 2020

i'm personally sick of american politics i just want the world to burn at this point

tofast4u · Apr 11, 2020

Thank god this communist globalist dropped out. Trump 2020

chrisrlink · Apr 11, 2020

ok so maybe this quarintie is making me a bit more psychotic than normal but to put it bluntly we are FUCKED with so many ways that we'll wind up screwed (Corona virus, North Korea ISIS) I'm supprised we're all not dead (yet)

Bernie Sanders drops out of Presidential Race

Time to fly, 621

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Time to fly, 621

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President-Elect

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Has a PhD in dueling

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