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Teenage babysitter shoots baby while taking selfie

Jokiz

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Getting tired of reading about Americans constantly using the "guns don't kill people" when something like this happens.
Fact of the matter is that countries with stricter gun laws have proven that it works.
Yes, a lot of people will still be able to get guns, and both accidents and murders will continue to happen, but these occurrences will decrease drastically!

The constitution was made in a time where people used single shot muskets, not getting automatic weapons at your local flee marked.
 

morvoran

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Fact of the matter is that countries with stricter gun laws have proven that it works.
Yes, a lot of people will still be able to get guns, and both accidents and murders will continue to happen, but these occurrences will decrease drastically!
You should tell the people in Chicago they need stricter gun laws..... Oh, wait, they have the strictest gun laws in the US and also the highest gun related deaths per capita. Hmm, why don't these gun laws work there?

Also, here's a good read: https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-that-australias-gun-laws-reduced-gun-homicides/
 
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Jokiz

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You should tell the people in Chicago they need stricter gun laws..... Oh, wait, they have the strictest gun laws in the US and also the highest gun related deaths per capita. Hmm, why don't these gun laws work there?

And I guess most of those gun related deaths are similar to the one linked in this thread?
Besides, does strictest gun laws in the US really say much?
 
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Pipistrele

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But stupid is as stupid does, and stupid people cause serious harm to others every damned day simply by virtue of their stupidity and ignorance, no gun required.
Still, there's way more room for violence by stupidity when guns are involved. You bring a valid point in that people are way too stupid and irresponsible, but the whole point of gun control is in exactly that - keeping stupid and irresponsible people away from lethal weaponry.
 

morvoran

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most of those gun related deaths are similar to the one linked in this thread..
No, they're mostly linked to "gang violence".

Besides, does strictest gun laws in the US really say much?
the gun laws in chicago are similar to london and australia, but they don't have the same amount of overcrowded cities and gangs that the big cities in the US have. In other words, gun laws don't mean anything if you have an overwhelming amount of violence. Look at london and the knife related violence there.

but the whole point of gun control is in exactly that - keeping stupid and irresponsible people away from lethal weaponry.
The point of gun control is to keep guns out of everybody's hands, not just the stupid ones with mental issues. Plus guns aren't the only "lethal weaponry" available to killers.
 

Jokiz

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The point of gun control is to keep guns out of everybody's hands, not just the stupid ones with mental issues. Plus guns aren't the only "lethal weaponry" available to killers.

Maybe off-topic with the thread, but I don't think the casualties of a school shooting would be the same if the killer ran around with a knife.

If you blame the high numbers of gun-violence in the US on mental health issues and stupidity only, then your country really is more behind the rest of the world than I want to believe.
 

FGFlann

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The issue really boils down to responsibility. People who aren't trained in the use of firearms really have no business having them. If you can't be responsible with the weapons you own, you don't deserve to have them either. The problems of rising knife crime in London, like gun violence problems in large American cities, are the result of the social aspect of our culture being neglected.
 

Pipistrele

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The point of gun control is to keep guns out of everybody's hands, not just the stupid ones with mental issues. Plus guns aren't the only "lethal weaponry" available to killers.
So far, whatever gun control measures are being applied in US states fail horribly at that task - especially since, as mentioned, it's not "just the stupid ones with mental issues" who can be dangerous in posession of guns, and lack of responsibility is a big factor too. Guns aren't the only "lethal weaponry" available to killers, but it's by far the most effective one. I mean, may as well up the ante and make landmines and grenades commercially legal, because"it's not explosives that kill people" and all.
 

notimp

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and both accidents and murders will continue to happen, but these occurrences will decrease drastically!
The point also is, that those death rates are at the same level as -
- Fall out of/from/through a bulding structure
- Cystic vibrosis
and are only half as common as deaths related to
- Deseases of male genital organs

Furthermore, if you take death counts from school shootings in the US from 2014 to 2018 those average out at 35 a year - which is bad enough.

But you have to attest at some level that whats happening here is people taking public rituals of grievance to help people over traumatic events (terrorism, ...), caused by society, as seen in the media, as hyped by politicians (but thats actually good, because it makes those rituals more effective for once), take them entirely out of context in terms of day to day dangers in their daily lives - and just play 'something has to change, because pictures in the media' activism.

And if you have a problem such as this. Your role as a politician is to be there, to hug people and hold speeches. Maybe to crack down on the availability of some weapons that could easily be substituted in the male phantasy model of 'thinking you are powerful' with something far less dangerous. But to never make a structural change as 'impactful' as outlawing weapons straight out. (Economic considerations, adverse effects of them becoming more desirable (black market),..)

Now - not even in europe, where weapon laws are far more strict, and weapons are much less prevalent in daily live, would that baby have been saved in that situation by any laws imaginable, but only, maybe, by overall reduced probability.
-

Why are we much more 'clued in' on deaths in school shootings having to stop? (Allthough they are more than 10 times less likely than even those accidents) Because thats a delegation of responsibility of your child to society, and then society not being able to do something, while its being killed, because of societal conflicts (in the minds of nutcases). So for people to not freak and go - f*ck this societal model, it took my child away - you have massive condolence / grieving rituals, so people have a chance to get over those instances without radicalizing themselves.
Also because children are experiencing collective trauma here, and none of this is fun.

But in terms of pure statistical importance, it makes no sense for this to pop up seven times over a year in a forum like this. When another mass shooting atrocity happens, you give people the space and the time to address it, also in groups, to contextualize it, to try to make sense of it, to grieve, ... Obviously.

But when you are confronted with an accident, and people want to throw it out of proportion again? Then you could try for once to lay out how irrational peoples feeling based perceptions of the world really are.

Now in case anyone ever was personally affected by any of this - I'm sorry for my words. I'm doing the a-hole thing of only looking at this from a macro/meso perspective. As in where individual peoples experiences, dont matter so much.
 
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DarkFlare69

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AND she pulled the trigger. No other explanation for the gun discharging. The gun was in her hand when it discharged, her finger was on the trigger, she applied pressure. They don't just just "go off."
Yeah, exactly. I was about to say that but then I figured people would quote me and say "Well it could have been an accident, her finger could have slipped..." and a bunch of other very unlikely scenerios to try and make it seem like it's the guns fault. Pulling a trigger on a gun is not an automatic process where it can just accidentally happen. I don't understand at all how someone can "accidentally" do that. It's not like it's featherweight or something to where the slightest touch sets it off. In the unlikely scenerio that she actually did not want to shoot the child, then she must have been carelessly pushing the limits of the trigger, playing with it to see how far it could could depress before it would fire a shot. I'm just speculating at this point, trying to get into her mind and see what the hell she was possibly thinking during this.
 
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morvoran

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Maybe off-topic with the thread, but I don't think the casualties of a school shooting would be the same if the killer ran around with a knife.
I'm sure somebody in a crowded place, such as a full subway car or a nightclub, could kill several people in a small amount of time with a knife.

So far, whatever gun control measures are being applied in US states fail horribly at that task
Well, the US gives its citizens rights unlike your country, obviously. Our second amendment gives us the right to protect ourselves.

it's by far the most effective one.
I would think poisoning or explosives would be more effective than guns.

If you blame the high numbers of gun-violence in the US on mental health issues and stupidity only, then your country really is more behind the rest of the world than I want to believe.
especially since, as mentioned, it's not "just the stupid ones with mental issues" who can be dangerous in posession of guns, and lack of responsibility is a big factor too.
I don't have the same outlook on people as you two. Anybody who would kill another with a gun that was not to protect themselves is both stupid and must have mental issues. I can't see a mentally stable and intelligent person pointing a gun at somebody and pulling the trigger. Maybe you have different standards than me.
 

notimp

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Pulling a trigger on a gun is not an automatic process where it can just accidentally happen.
*Watches my hand facing my face*
*Makes motion of hand trying to grab something*
*Looks at index finger*
*Remembers that people have to be taught to straighten their index finger as a default, when operating a gun*

*oh the lies.. ;)*

At least in europe guns have to be stored in compartments that are our of reach of people who dont know how to operate them, and children. Would that be a solution?

If you buy a gun you also buy the safe/guncase for it, with it. Or some people then still complaining, that they cant put them under their pillows anymore, because robbers?

This one was moreso the fault of the adult that left that gun lying around, than the babysitter (who acted irrationally, themselves being a child(?)). Also something you have to explain to tempers?

Here is another fun statistic.

When we checked 2015 FBI figures, for example, there were 13,455 reported homicides, and 102 of those happened during burglaries.
Lets say all of them where committed using guns. Lets recognize that about a third of those are not the burglars dying.
src: https://www.politifact.com/factchec...l-moore-flubs-stats-people-killed-guns-durin/

So plain and simply, you are far more likely (about 5x) to accedently kill someone else with your gun, than you are killing a burglar.

So the 'I need it to protect myself' excuse is emotionally hyped bullsh*t as well (at least the 'from burglars' part). To sell guns.

And if you are into the - no no, 'but shooting them in the legs stopped them' excuse - it is not very likely, that if you are catching people during a robbery, where they'd try to do anything other than scram. (How many other people are in the house, do you really want to cross the line from robber to murderer, ...) To prove that you would need statistics, that go into which party in the homicides above was killed in cold blood, which you don't have. But that statistically that number is far lower, should be pretty obvious.

So to the people arguing 'don't take aways my gun!' you are still the most irrational in the the entire debate. Its just, that 'outlawing all guns' wouldnt necessarily work, and 'cost jobs'. So you dont do it.
 
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DarkFlare69

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*Watches my hand facing my face*
*Makes motion of hand trying to grab something*
*Looks at index finger*
*Remembers that people have to be taught to straighten their index finger as a default, when operating a gun*

*oh the lies.. ;)*

At least in europe guns have to be stored in compartments that are our of reach of people who dont know how to operate them, and children. Would that be a solution?

If you buy a gun you also buy the safe/guncase for it, with it. Or some people then still complaining, that they cant put them under their pillows anymore, because robbers?

This one was moreso the fault of the adult that left that gun lying around, than the babysitter (who acted irrationally, themselves being a child(?)). Also something you have to explain to tempers?

Here is another fun statistic.


Lets say all of them where committed using guns. Lets recognize that about a third of those are not the burglars dying.
src: https://www.politifact.com/factchec...l-moore-flubs-stats-people-killed-guns-durin/

So plain and simply, you are far more likely (about 5x) to accedently kill someone else with your gun, than you are killing a burglar.

So the 'I need it to protect myself' excuse is emotionally hyped bullsh*t as well (at least the 'from burglars' part). To sell guns.

And if you are into the - no no, 'but shooting them in the legs stopped them' excuse - it is not very likely, that if you are catching people during a robbery, where they'd try to do anything other than scram. (How many other people are in the house, do you really want to cross the line from robber to murderer, ...) To prove that you would need statistics, that go into which party in the homicides above was killed in cold blood, which you don't have. But that statistically that number is far lower, should be pretty obvious.

So to the people arguing 'don't take aways my gun!' you are still the most irrational in the the entire debate. Its just, that 'outlawing all guns' wouldnt necessarily work, and 'cost jobs'. So you dont do it.
I completely agree that the owners of the gun should have kept it locked away and yes it is mostly their fault. They are the root cause of the problem here. Regardless, a 19 year old, a legal adult, should know better than to pick up a gun they don't know how to use, and then aim and fire it at a child. I think guns should be locked up under the bed of the property owner. I also agree the point of owning a firearm is not to walk out of your room and kill the intruder, it's to protect yourself. If the weapon is locked up, then the best thing to do in case of an intruder is to lock the door, and then call the cops and unlock the weapon while still in the locked room. We seem to be on the same page pretty much.

I don't think there will ever be a solution to most problems between liberals vs conservatives, gun rights being one of them. There's just too much variation in the stupidity and mental stability of people for there to be solution that fits everyone. I'm from the USA and I'm not afraid to admit that most people I met (besides people at my college or from online) are dumb. People don't know how to properly store a gun. People don't know how to properly use a gun. You can never guarantee anyone's intentions when using or purchasing a gun. There is too much variation for there to ever be a proper solution.
 

subcon959

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Nobody mentioned the real scurge.. selfies.

Btw, I clicked to complain about the tabloid post, but since it turned into the usual gun debate I'll just leave it to the pros.
 

MohammedQ8

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Selfie to Cellfee

Act 1

Baby sitter: hey guys guess who will shoot herself today. (Pointing at her head)

baby sitter: No No too dangerous plus I didnt bring comb to fix my hair.

act 2

baby sitter: hey guys guess who is sick oooooof sitting babies.

pointing at the child. (Clicked her phone)

baby sitter: I want in gif format.

act 3

Dooom.
 
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notimp

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Regardless, a 19 year old, a legal adult, should know better than to pick up a gun they don't know how to use, and then aim and fire it at a child.
Tend to agree (read for the first time that they were 19 years old), because our legal system does as well. But what does that buy you?

If you always argue to come out at 'it was their individual responsibility' all of the cases become individual cases.

In that case, dont bother with politics all. Shrug it off always and go your merry ways.

What I'm trying to do is to give you an institutional perspective. Where you at one point say - ok, individual behavior is sometimes stupid (group behavior even more so), reasoning for people wanting to own guns is stupid, outlawing them doesnt work.

What do you do?

And the answer to that always is mitigation. Meaning give them gun safes, say they have to buy and use them (at least for ammunition and anything thats loaded). Cuts down on people hording weapons for no rational reason. Gets them accustom to safety protocols that can be implemented for saving other people from themselves. Has gun nuts not up in arms too much, because they probably find safes sexy too. And them having been seen as even more responsible members of their broader community is also something they'd ultimately like. Doesnt have the gun stores up in arms that much (markup for a safe). But has the NRA up in arms, because they'll know that this cuts down on gun purchases overall.

Ban high velocity rifles/automatic rifles or severely limit access to ammunition, or require of them to be stored at gun ranges. Because ultimately you have to take responsibility for irresponsible or careless people accessing your guns as well.


I can tell you one more thing, your behavior is typical of the most irrational crowd behavior that there is, namely scapegoating. Take someone with the same emotional corset as you all have (fascination of guns, getting a powertrip when holding them), but maybe without weapons training (which is just conditioning, so dont get too proud over it) (as a 19 year old babysitter), exorcise their behavior, for feeling and acting just like you, just more irrational - that one time it backfired, crush them in public rituals, feel better about yourselves.

And no the solution to all this is not 'gun training for everyone'. ;)

It literally is - layering in more stumbling blocks to be able to access guns 'as freely', but trying to make them stumbling blocks, that gun owners maybe dont mind as much.

Which is where the NRA isnt helping, because, talking about hardliners... I mean those guys sell their members the believe of acting as counterinsurgency forces against their own governments, (using drone warfare ;) ), on TV channels they own - just to hype up concern and romanticism at the same time. Which is pretty crazy, if you are looking at it from my perspective. So reasoning currently doesnt work. Which means standstill.

Also doing nothing is easier. So... sadly more likely.
 
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WeedZ

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notimp

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I think you hit every handwaving deflecting argument possible here, well done. The NRA would be proud.
Should I jump for that? Ok, here I come.. :)

Numbers of instances are so low it might not even be worth talking about them. Trying to minimize them is still a 'noble' cause - if you are so inclined.

Numbers of people killed in school shootings is a factor lower, than that. Yet people talk about them with much more urgency. With a higher emotional connection. And with more identification.

THEN I EXPLAINED WHY.

Because after school schootings, society holds mass rituals, with figures of importance holding speeches, with children in states of shock, crying their eyes out, with media reporting on that. (Aiding a shared 'healing' and 'mourning' process.) And every emotionally driven idiot in the world, SUDDENLY. Brews up a storm, and formulates in one insanely loud voice: "This has to stop. Never ever again."

NICE SENTIMENT.

I agree. But you still only did it, because you thought by media representation of an event, you could judge, the size of an issue. Which you couldnt. (Not fake news though, reporting of an actual event, thats different, Its just that 'what that event means (in terms of influencing realpolitics)' that peoples opinions might diverge on.)


Now, lets change it (play through that process), because getting those numbers down is still a noble cause.

I basically insisted, that you cant ban guns.

I havent yet explored argumentatively why not.

Because laws, dont make a thing, go away. If you ban something, and cant enforce it - you loose societal recognition as a state.

Because if you ban something categorically, and this something has an aura of power, or forbiddeness to it, it automatically becomes more desireable.

Because if you as a nation serve the function of offing every other interest group that even remotely objects to the current international order, its hard to then integrate your soldiers back into your societies, if you tell them - you know what, guns - very bad, so bad. You wouldnt know.


So as a freaking insult throwing, non arguments wielding SJW, could you please have the decency to acknowledge, that those are real arguments as used in politics today (not in activism coming from the NRA), and that you poor wanting to make the world better people, based on everything emotional you see in your social media feeds, have to acknowledge political realities at some point, and dont just make up the world in a fashion, that you decided on - but people never agreed or voted on.

I hate this attitude so much, that I want to leave you with the following outro. If you have something to say - come prepared to discuss, and not to preach. Bring arguments. Be prepared not to just being the bestest white knight in the room, by simply signaling some virtues.

And check your sources - because none of that was "deflecting as taught by the NRA". I presented what I indicated to present in here, which was an 'institutional perspective' on the matter.

Also look at numbers for once in your life, and not just at feels.

It is possible to reduce the number of people dying from school shootings even more. Look at europe as an example. But you dont do that, by stating - you are more noble than anyone, and therefore should be allowed to draw up bans and prohibition on all guns.

And a little thank you would be nice, if someone like me tells you not to spread stories like in the OP for 'activism' purposes, because they backfire. Watch and learn.

You campaign on parents being very concerned and having done everything right, and still having lost their children. Not on parents having left their gun laying around and having hired the wrong babysitter. Because the second one produces so much cognitive dissonance, that no one will be in favor of your cause after having milked that story for more than a faint glance of it in a social media feed.

You dont know what you are doing. If you are part of an organisation that works towards banning guns, ask your PR person.


So how do you do it? Mitigation. You make guns harder to acquire. You make people think about them differently (not letting them just lay around), you implement procedures that might help them doing so. You basically manipulate the living sh*t out of them ("Look, bullets are so dangerous, I have to put them in a safe!"), but as a result everybody wins.

You dont play SJW has seen the light, and now does some activism. And if you are very attached to activism, good luck - again, the cause is noble, its just that the issue might be too small once anything comes along that removes it from the top of other peoples minds. Activism still works. Just rarely. And never in the way you are proposing that it should. ("Just because my opinion is so obviously the truth, no argumets are needed. I'm a SJW. I'm the better person.".)

Just never, and thats life advice, tell people how much your feelings dictate reality, and then leave the room waiting for everyone to be impressed.
 
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Waygeek

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Found the gun nut who unironically uses the word 'sjw'.

Your Nazi armband animu waifu avatar is missing, better get on that.

Strange of you to throw Europe in as an argument attempt. Europe is disgusted with the States on this issue among many issues. As a European, I would know. You however, have no clue what you're on about.
 
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