Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition gets rated in South Korea, hinting at a release soon

ZachyCatGames · Feb 27, 2020

FGFlann said:
It's not programmed from scratch, as I said. The underlying systems are lifted directly from the SNES version. It is a copy with a new 3D facade. Early footage shows 1:1 NPC behaviour, including scripts lifted directly from the SNES that made NPCs walk into walls for seconds at a time, instead of turning as they do now, because they had not adjusted their behaviour to suit 3D models instead of sprite flipping.

Congratulations, you’ve shown that you know absolutely nothing about game development & computer programming in general.

FGFlann · Feb 27, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
Congratulations, you’ve shown that you know absolutely nothing about game development & computer programming in general.

Thanks for telling me but I'm not going to take your word for it and you are wrong. What I've said is accurate. This was clearly demonstrated in initial release footage with the character of Elliot in Potos Villlage. Only after the fact was NPC behaviour altered to make it look a little more natural.

FGFlann · Feb 27, 2020

Lucky for me, I had the foresight to save the clip. See for yourself how it compares to the original game and its current version.

But if you have other technical objections to what I've said, let's hear them and we'll address those, too.

Jiansetic · Feb 27, 2020

Can't wait to replay this classic, one of my favorite games

DANTENDO · Feb 27, 2020

Just got newsletter nintendo and xenoblade chronicles 2 has 33% off offer

ZachyCatGames · Feb 27, 2020

FGFlann said:
Thanks for telling me but I'm not going to take your word for it and you are wrong. What I've said is accurate. This was clearly demonstrated in initial release footage with the character of Elliot in Potos Villlage. Only after the fact was NPC behaviour altered to make it look a little more natural.

The original game was written in the SNES’s assembly language (like all other SNES games), assembly language is very specific to every architecture, and porting code made in assembly to other architectures is generally practically impossible without rewriting the entirety of the program.
Modern platforms use C/C++ which is VERY different from assembly.
I don’t think I need to say any more

FGFlann · Feb 27, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
The original game was written in the SNES’s assembly language (like all other SNES games), assembly language is very specific to every architecture, and porting it to other platforms is practically impossible without rewriting the entirety of the program.
Modern platforms use C/C++ which is VERY different from assembly.
I don’t think I need to say any more

This just seems very disingenuous, as to say this would be to completely ignore the concept of porting code between platforms. Which as any programmer would know is commonplace. Just because the the games run using a different set of instructions does not mean it is done so from scratch. But that's not even the issue. What the new Secret of Mana remake is, is an interpreter for the original game files of the SNES version. Every script for every cutscene lifted directly from the original source and applied to the new 3D facade.

ZachyCatGames · Feb 27, 2020

FGFlann said:
This just seems very disingenuous, as to say this would be to completely ignore the concept of porting code between platforms. Which as any programmer would know is commonplace. Just because the the games run using a different set of instructions does not mean it is done so from scratch. But that's not even the issue. What the new Secret of Mana remake is, is an interpreter for the original game files of the SNES version. Every script for every cutscene lifted directly from the original source and applied to the new 3D facade.

Nowadays, yes, porting games between platforms is fairly simple because of modern languages like C/C++ being usable on practically all platforms. But back in the 80/90 when assembly was used for everything, porting was a much much more difficult task and a decent chunk of the games would have to be rewritten unless both platforms used similar architectures and instruction sets.

You have a source on the interpreter thing? Also the original source wouldn’t be usable on any modern platform.

And the fucking npc movement patterns being similar, doesn’t mean anything, like, at all. Replicating movement patterns is extremely simple and was very very likely intentional.

edit: fixed minor fuckup

FGFlann · Feb 27, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
Nowadays, yes, porting games between platforms is fairly simple because of modern languages like C/C++ being usable on practically all platforms. But back in the 80/90 when assembly was used for everything, porting was a much much more difficult task and a decent chunk of the games would have to be rewritten unless both platforms used similar architectures and instruction sets.

You have a source on the interpreter thing? Also the original source wouldn’t be usable on any modern platform.

And the fucking npc movement patterns are similar, doesn’t mean anything, like, at all. Replicating movement patterns is extremely simple and was very very likely intentional.

The source doesn't need to be usable in its original form. Again, completely ignoring the concept of porting code.

As for the gameplay and NPC behaviour itself being *identical*, 1:1, it definitely does mean something.

If the game is programmed from scratch why would this be the case? It's not a logical leap to make the assumption that it using the same scripts.

As I'm not privy to internal development I have no source to offer you other than your own powers of observation. But it does follow logically that the game would need to interpret the original game files if they are in use, which it appears that they are.

None of this is beyond the realms of possibility. I would appreciate an apology for the accusations you made about me not knowing anything about this process. As I believe I've demonstrated sufficiently how this can be the case.

ZachyCatGames · Feb 27, 2020

FGFlann said:
The source doesn't need to be usable in its original form. Again, completely ignoring the concept of porting code.

As for the gameplay and NPC behaviour itself being *identical*, 1:1, it definitely does mean something.

If the game is programmed from scratch why would this be the case? It's not a logical leap to make the assumption that it using the same scripts.

As I'm not privy to internal development I have no source to offer you other than your own powers of observation. But it does follow logically that the game would need to interpret the original game files if they are in use, which it appears that they are.

None of this is beyond the realms of possibility. I would appreciate an apology for the accusations you made about me not knowing anything about this process. As I believe I've demonstrated sufficiently how this can be the case.

Again, porting assembly isn’t practical without rewriting a decent chunk of the program unless the instruction sets are the same or very similar (and I’ve been taking a look at some snes assembly for the past few minutes, it’s very different from aarch64 assembly)

Replacting movement paths/patterns 1:1 isn’t difficult.

edit:
>scripts
kek

Also, this is coming from somebody who has done some game development lol.

FGFlann · Feb 27, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
Again, porting assembly isn’t practical without rewriting a decent chunk of the program unless the instruction sets are the same or very similar (and I’ve been taking a look at some snes assembly for the past few minutes, it’s very different from aarch64 assembly)

Replacting movement paths/patterns 1:1 isn’t difficult.

edit:
>scripts
kek

Also, this is coming from somebody who has done some game development lol.

Do I need to explain the concept of a script to you? Do you think cutscenes are generated dynamically on the fly but somehow miraculously play out the same way every time? Or are they scripted sequences? This is too easy and you're not even thinking.

ZachyCatGames · Feb 27, 2020

FGFlann said:
Do I need to explain the concept of a script to you? Do you think cutscenes are generated dynamically on the fly but somehow miraculously play out the same way every time? Or are they scripted sequences? This is too easy and you're not even thinking.

I know what they are. I was going to add more there but ended up not and I guess I accidentally pressed save instead of cancel *shrugs*
But anyway, they can’t directly use that shit, they could reference it, sure, but not directly use it, in which case it’d still be a remake.

Also, you realize you’re pretty much trying to argue that they completely recreated all of the assets and added support for rendering 3d and a bunch of other modern crap to the original snes assembly code and are emulating that? Right? Lmao

FGFlann · Feb 27, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
I know what they are. I was going to add more there but ended up not and I guess I accidentally pressed save instead of cancel *shrugs*
But anyway, they can’t directly use that shit, they could reference it, sure, but not directly use it, in which case it’d still be a remake.

Also, you realize you’re pretty much trying to argue that they completely recreated all of the assets and added support for rendering 3d and a bunch of other modern crap to the original snes assembly code and are emulating that? Right? Lmao

No, that's completely wrong. This demonstrates that you don't understand what's happening here. Let me give you a good, real world example of how this has been done.

http://q-gears.sourceforge.net/

Q-Gears is an interpreter for the original game files of Final Fantasy 7, using the original game files playing out exactly as they were scripted to do so.

This is a functioning example of this concept. Try it out.

Secret of Mana works under the same principle with additional elements for new graphics and features. It is not wholly original and not wholly identical. It mixes both elements but without original game files is NOT programmed from scratch.

What you are actually describing however has happened as far back as the PS1, when an emulator was created for SNES Final Fantasy games that used interrupts to play FMV cutscnes over original cutscenes. It's a new concept at all, especially for Square.

ZachyCatGames · Feb 27, 2020

FGFlann said:
No, that's completely wrong. This demonstrates that you don't understand what's happening here. Let me give you a good, real world example of how this has been done.

http://q-gears.sourceforge.net/

Q-Gears is an interpreter for the original game files of Final Fantasy 7, using the original game files playing out exactly as they were scripted to do so.

This is a functioning example of this concept. Try it out.

Secret of Mana works under the same principle with additional elements for new graphics and features. It is not wholly original and not wholly identical. It mixes both elements but without original game files is NOT programmed from scratch.

What you are actually describing however has happened as far back as the PS1, when an emulator was created for SNES Final Fantasy games that used interrupts to play FMV cutscnes over original cutscenes. It's a new concept at all, especially for Square.

If you really think they’re using a completely new engine with completely new assets but are using original unmodified NPC movement patterns and other stuff like that (which is all very simple to recreate 1:1), reverse engineer the game and prove it.
Until then, what you’re trying to say seems completely false based on what I know about game dev and my personal experiences. I’m out.

FGFlann · Feb 27, 2020

ZachyCatGames said:
If you really think they’re using a completely new engine with completely new assets but are using original unmodified NPC movement patterns, reverse engineer the game and prove it.
Until then, what you’re trying to say seems completely false based on what I know about game dev and my personal experiences. I’m out.

An actual demonstration of it happening isn't enough? If you don't want to concede that's fine, but if you're not even willing to acknowledge the possibility, that's disappointing.

ZachyCatGames · Feb 27, 2020

FGFlann said:
An actual demonstration of it happening isn't enough? If you don't want to concede that's fine, but if you're not even willing to acknowledge the possibility, that's disappointing.

I mean, yeah, it’s possible. But would be more difficult and complicated than just rewriting that stuff shrugs.
I guess I can check out the game sometime if I’m bored and have nothing else to do, and DM you if I find anything.

AutumnWolf · Feb 28, 2020

TheMrIron2 said:
I suspect you're trying to sidestep my actual point by saying "Wii U failed/N3DS bad".

Not at all

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