Google Stadia launches today to mixed reception over input lag

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Google Stadia has finally kicked off its launch today, releasing eight months after its announcement back in March of this year. Google planned to create a "Netflix" of gaming, of sorts, by allowing players to stream games to any device, be it a netbook laptop's browser, a phone mobile app, or a TV's Chromecast, removing the need to own an expensive gaming console. Theoretically, Google would lower the barrier of entry, and allow millions to play the latest and greatest that gaming had to offer, in a simple and casual manner.

Initially, many took issue with the idea of streaming video games across the country, as data caps, input lag, and slow connections would likely stand in the way of consistent performance. A month prior to launch, in October, Google promised that latency would not be a problem with Stadia, as they claimed their servers and technology would be able to easily handle streaming 4K 60FPS video games to its customers, without issue. There was even an official statement of how Google Stadia would have "negative" latency, and would offer a more responsive experience than playing games locally, in the coming future.

But latency is the thing that gets the most attention. And while it's already proven to be more than playable, [Madj Bakar, VP of Engineering] expects further improvements. "Ultimately, we think, in a year or two, we'll have games that are running faster and feel more responsive in the cloud that they do locally, regardless of how powerful the local machine is," he claims. These improvements will come via a term which sounds rather slippery. "Negative latency" is a concept by which Stadia can set up a game with a buffer of predicted latency between the server and player, and then use various methods to undercut it. It can run the game at a super-fast framerate so it can act on player inputs earlier, or it can predict a player's button presses. These tricks can help the game feel more responsive, potentially more so than a console game running locally at 30fps with a wireless controller.

This only served to create more controversy for the service, with many skeptical of such a concept even being possible. Those claims are looking to be even more impossible in the near future, as Stadia is having issues with streaming games upon its first day of release.

For many, this isn't a surprise at all. Digital Foundry, and its parent publication, Eurogamer, took Stadia out for a test drive with the Founder's Pack, describing their time with the service as "incomplete", and "basic". More importantly, though, they measured the exact input lag, comparing Stadia against an Xbox One X.

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While the above chart shows a definite amount of difference in terms of input lag, Eurogamer admitted that the games they played, at 4K resolution and 60 frames per second on a 200mbps wired connection, felt fine, overall, still being considered playable to the masses who likely wouldn't notice any major input lag.

Ultimately, the question is how the game feels in the hand. Nothing I played could be considered 'unplayable' or very laggy - with the possible exception of Tomb Raider in quality mode, but I even got used to that after a while. Remember that different actions may have different latencies, so the table above is far from definitive. At best, it's a test of the one particular motion carried out in the same scenarios on each system. More tests on more titles may put Stadia into better focus, but 45-55ms of lag generally is perfectly acceptable for many experiences and even a fast-paced FPS like Destiny 2 plays out fine on the pad. Obviously though, if you're gaming on a living room display via Chromecast, do make sure game mode is enabled and definitely ensure that you're using a LAN connection.

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Other sites, however, were not as pleased. Forbes' writers reported massive amounts of input lag, making the 22 launch titles impossible to play or control.

Across all test titles I played, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Mortal Kombat 11, Destiny 2, GYLT and Red Dead Redemption 2, I would get periodic stuttering issues with massive resolution and frame drops. Not all the time, but enough to be noticed frequently and disrupt gameplay, which is what everyone feared may happen with this kind of tech. The intensity of the game didn’t matter, it could be the graphically rich Red Dead or the cartoony GYLT. Single player or multiplayer didn’t matter, I could be playing solo as Lara Croft or playing Destiny 2’s Gambit in a pre-arranged match, the issues were the same. You could have 80% of a session be going fine, but then the last 20% would suddenly lurch you into dropping, stuttering territory. And in most games, all it takes is one hiccup to make you pay dearly.

What many have already likely seen, is the above GIF, which comes from The Washington Post. In their trial, Destiny 2 had full seconds of latency, between pressing a button and the intended action occurring.

It's important to consider that this is all still technically an early access soft launch for Stadia--those who are making use of the service now, are playing with technology that still has much room to improve and change, especially before its separate base release, slated for 2020. But while Google can certainly try to reduce input lag, develop better codecs, and innovate their streaming technology as a whole, many have a fear of if Stadia is actually really here to stay, with Google's infamous track record of creating services, investing into them for a handful of years, and then tossing them aside in favor of new projects looming in the back of our minds.
 

FAST6191

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Data caps need to be abolished, games need to be available a-la-carte and not paid on top of service. Once these are met, then I'd consider this. But until caps are removed, and I don't have to pay for a game on top of a service for things I can't even tangibly keep, I don't see the appeal. Since Google likes killing things they start for no more than two years at most, I won't trust this.

Our infrastructure is such garbage, our caps are highway robbery, 1080p 60 fps equates to roughly 15 GB per hour, that is insane and I refuse to pay for games I can't even download to local storage, games that servers will eventually be shut down for in the future.

https://killedbygoogle.com/

All potentially reasonable objections for various use cases, and presumably your own too, but not dealbreakers for everybody which I presume is what google is aiming to go with or ride out elsewhere, and speak little to the technical woes that started this quote chain.
 

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All potentially reasonable objections for various use cases, and presumably your own too, but not dealbreakers for everybody which I presume is what google is aiming to go with or ride out elsewhere, and speak little to the technical woes that started this quote chain.

It's just, like, on paper, it's a good concept, but poorly executed on their part.

Didn't deliver on promised features, such as game sharing, achievements, requiring one to have a Pixel phone, the list goes on.
Like I said before, if it was paying for the monthly service, instead of full price on games people have played before (And games you can get cheaper elsewhere) I wouldn't be objected to this, you know?
It feels half-baked and like an alpha more than a beta if anything.

If they had more time to prep this, fix the glaring missing features, and added more games on launch, maybe it wouldn't be so panned. Am I wrong for wanting a more developed product at launch instead of something that feels like a product EA worked on? *sigh* If this is how cloud gaming is going to be like, I want no part of it unless they can offer more features and more games at launch. Just my two cents. And since my ISP is stupid and has a 1 TB cap (*I can pay for unlimited data, but that's even more money) 1080 and 4K streams will add up very quickly.

With Netflix, the data is buffered in advance, and doesn't consistently stream once a movie or show is loaded, it's mostly loaded into memory at that point. With streaming games, that doesn't buffer and is streamed in realtime, using more bandwidth, usually. I just, I'm skeptical, I'm sorry I don't share the same point of view as you, maybe I'm just negative, and I don't know what to say that I haven't already said with my grievances. I'm just too skeptical, and the whole "negative input lag" is a BS claim. *sigh*
 

FAST6191

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It's just, like, on paper, it's a good concept, but poorly executed on their part.

Didn't deliver on promised features, such as game sharing, achievements, requiring one to have a Pixel phone, the list goes on.
Like I said before, if it was paying for the monthly service, instead of full price on games people have played before (And games you can get cheaper elsewhere) I wouldn't be objected to this, you know?
It feels half-baked and like an alpha more than a beta if anything.

If they had more time to prep this, fix the glaring missing features, and added more games on launch, maybe it wouldn't be so panned. Am I wrong for wanting a more developed product at launch instead of something that feels like a product EA worked on? *sigh* If this is how cloud gaming is going to be like, I want no part of it unless they can offer more features and more games at launch. Just my two cents. And since my ISP is stupid and has a 1 TB cap (*I can pay for unlimited data, but that's even more money) 1080 and 4K streams will add up very quickly.

With Netflix, the data is buffered in advance, and doesn't consistently stream once a movie or show is loaded, it's mostly loaded into memory at that point. With streaming games, that doesn't buffer and is streamed in realtime, using more bandwidth, usually. I just, I'm skeptical, I'm sorry I don't share the same point of view as you, maybe I'm just negative, and I don't know what to say that I haven't already said with my grievances. I'm just too skeptical, and the whole "negative input lag" is a BS claim. *sigh*


On paper it is not a good concept. Latency will tank it for truly remote stuff outside of say 2 hops of the router.

Game sharing (whatever that means here), trophments (though I am not complaining about that awful concept not appearing here) and entry requirements are bad news and fine things to pull them up on but they pale before physics of latency, which is what I was contemplating earlier in this quoting session.

If service fees with extra payments for services is your pain point then so be it (I have no monthly fees if I can get away with it, and I can it seems). I can see others playing happily within it though (a fool and his money and all that).

Again though this is all so much of a sideshow compared to the physics.
 

Dax_Fame

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Who could've predicted this? :rolleyes:

I'm sure they'll have a fat stack of $100 play store credits to say sorry to the poor people who purchase it after it's canned in 2 years.

The only time streaming games is acceptable is when you're streaming your own games (Steam Link, ps play or whatever it's called)

I've always found "cloud" games to be a dreadful idea since the very beginning. Was Nvidia first??

But those perfect knife handle grips... Screw it, sign me up! Google is trying to get itself into something it doesn't understand well enough or at all.

Gun to your head, you have to buy Stadia or Google glass? Both are the same price and we're assuming glass wasn't ditched (like this will be) which would you choose? Both are stupid but I'm trying to make a point.
 

YukidaruPunch

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I actually think there's an absurd amount of potential here, but this botched launch might mark them up for good. I don't think this is as needless as the average gamer thinks it is, but I think it's weird how Google pushed up this service which clearly wasn't ready yet.

I actually hope for it to succeed on the long term. I don't plan on buying any new hardware anytime soon - and I honestly believe I might play Doom Eternal on this someday.
 

FAST6191

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Who could've predicted this? :rolleyes:

I'm sure they'll have a fat stack of $100 play store credits to say sorry to the poor people who purchase it after it's canned in 2 years.

The only time streaming games is acceptable is when you're streaming your own games (Steam Link, ps play or whatever it's called)

I've always found "cloud" games to be a dreadful idea since the very beginning. Was Nvidia first??

But those perfect knife handle grips... Screw it, sign me up! Google is trying to get itself into something it doesn't understand well enough or at all.

Gun to your head, you have to buy Stadia or Google glass? Both are the same price and we're assuming glass wasn't ditched (like this will be) which would you choose? Both are stupid but I'm trying to make a point.

I wouldn't mind a nice camera on my head able to record things, and display fun data of my choice (possibly also some nice AR) into my eyeballs. Get a nice battery and wire it (or indeed don't) into a computer you likely keep about your person and that could make something useful.

Streaming your own stuff over a remote connection outside of your own town (and possibly on the same ISP or style of ISP -- so not cable to ADSL) within that town will be troubled by the same problems.

I actually think there's an absurd amount of potential here, but this botched launch might mark them up for good. I don't think this is as needless as the average gamer thinks it is, but I think it's weird how Google pushed up this service which clearly wasn't ready yet.

I actually hope for it to succeed on the long term. I don't plan on buying any new hardware anytime soon - and I honestly believe I might play Doom Eternal on this someday.
This isn't a matter of "oh wait for everybody to get faster internet" like we did with downloadable games*. This is hard laws of physics. If they can beat ping times then... other than having effectively invented time travel the military and financial applications of that kind of tech would be "never mind one blank cheque, have two".

If they want to do the local stuff ( https://gbatemp.net/threads/google-...ion-over-input-lag.552565/page-6#post-8868406 ) then there is that but at that point it is a rather different proposition and business model for them.

*ignoring ROMs for old systems we had fairly normal/non technical people routinely downloading PC games since the days of gnutella (as in before torrents got big), and technical people further back still (I remember one group of associates looking to download Windows ME and winding up with a game instead following a mistake in selecting the download selection, said associates had long been downloading no-cd cracks, and one of them going further back to Amiga stuff). To that end anybody at the midway point of the 360 lifetime was very much fighting a losing battle not expecting things to shift there.
 

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This isn't a matter of "oh wait for everybody to get faster internet" like we did with downloadable games*. This is hard laws of physics. If they can beat ping times then... other than having effectively invented time travel the military and financial applications of that kind of tech would be "never mind one blank cheque, have two".

This "laws of physics" stuff is some overblown horseshit. Light is plenty fast enough, its limited bandwith from our cheapass ISPs, cables crammed with crappy TV instead of fiber optic, and crappy routers and hops and the like that are slowing things down. Some countries and even American cities have mostly solved this problem, its about investing in infrastructure which is as anathema to most of the U.S. as the taxes that would fund it.

When Stadia hits 50 ms like it does for people in better conditions, that's "good enough" for most people. Getting more of those people in on that is mostly a matter of better hardware and maybe some more data centers. I don't see those as inevitable like Google does, but its totally a solvable problem.
 
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Dax_Fame

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@FAST6191 True, but the reason I say it's acceptable is it's not a service that could be shut down.

Sure, the software used could be disabled eventually but at least you'd still own your games.
 

FAST6191

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This "laws of physics" stuff is some overblown horseshit. Light is plenty fast enough, its limited bandwith from our cheapass ISPs, cables crammed with crappy TV instead of fiber optic, and crappy routers and hops and the like that are slowing things down. Some countries and even American cities have mostly solved this problem, its about investing in infrastructure which is as anathema to most of the U.S. as the taxes that would fund it.

When Stadia hits 50 ms like it does for people in better conditions, that's "good enough" for most people. Getting more of those people in on that is mostly a matter of better hardware and maybe some more data centers. I don't see those as inevitable like Google does, but its totally a solvable problem.
Bandwidth is a non issue, even in the US, for most use cases I imagine for this right now (if nothing else people already watch video) and while the future may see some more bandwidth unarsed such that the theoretical hardcore user could bust it out wherever there is a (hopefully low latency) screen for a marathon session that is presumably not the target market at this point. Congestion in the sense you mention (as well as the one more traditionally afflicting cable internet providers) is also not much of one.
If they fancied laying and boosting a single laser fibre or point to point radio from their server to your house then sure even a good monitor would probably add more to the equation than a server anywhere on the same continent. However even if South Korea, Japan and Norway collided together the infrastructure of a vaguely general purpose system is not going to manage it and it needs to be local hubs, or perhaps some local offset, something that if they were doing that they would be shouting from the rooftops.
 

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The only feasible solution to the latency problem is collocation centers in major metropolies across the globe, and that's an expensive venture that has to be continuously upgraded with each gaming generation, Shadow figured this out ages ago which is why their service. It's not just a software issue, bandwidth problems are a physical limitation of the transfer medium. You're never really connecting directly to the server via fiberoptic, and the more nodes you hit along the way the longer the response time. It's not something Google will be able to patch with a band-aid - they need to drop big money on the problem, and they'll quickly realise just how razor thin their margin really is once they do.

The service was tested on a 1 Gigabit connection and it still had latency problems - it's not an issue of "slow Internet", once the bandwidth is satisfied, latency becomes entirely an issue of response time between your computer and the collocation center, and all the nodes you hit along the way. It's not working well because of the lacking on-the-ground infrastructure, not because of the bandwidth.
Technical facts would obviously explain all hardware involved because its the only way to back track a problem and see where the hiccup is perfect hardware setup would be handcuffed by relay speed
 

Foxi4

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Technical facts would obviously explain all hardware involved because its the only way to back track a problem and see where the hiccup is perfect hardware setup would be handcuffed by relay speed
Considering the fact that Stadia is supported on a variety of platforms, some via a client and some via the browser, it's safe to say that no game processing besides capturing input and delivering video and audio is happening on the client device - it's interactive YouTube, not a huge mystery.
 

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Considering the fact that Stadia is supported on a variety of platforms, some via a client and some via the browser, it's safe to say that no game processing besides capturing input and delivering video and audio is happening on the client device - it's interactive YouTube, not a huge mystery.
Its hdmi over ethernet ,running it on a wired system and cutting down on switches and wifi would have a significant difference.

Wifi+casting+bluetooth controller = :wacko:
 

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