Hardware Exchanging thermal paste?

The Real Jdbye · Oct 25, 2019

guily6669 said:
Yeah but bad idea is who designed that, it's just stupid going from die, thermal paste to a copper sheet that does nothing then another layer of thermal paste until it goes to the most efficient heat transfer point which is the part that will actually cool it... It only loses heating transfer efficiency...

By removing the copper sheet as long as the whole die makes perfect contact with the cooling plate it should always be a lot more efficient in cooling it, just like when intel decided to stop soldering the IC place above the die after their 2nd gen I3\I5\I7 lineup and then the 3rd and any newer gen after some point would loose like 20Cº by just removing the crap thermal paste and going liquid metal, but for extreme OC nothing goes as efficient as completely exposing the die and make direct contact from it to a proper cooler, however in Desktop CPU's they probably all now come with the cover so that ppl don't make too much force attaching coolers and cracking the die like it used to happen a damn long time ago when PC CPU's had the exposed die like in laptops...

Even by just sanding a bit a Desktop CPU copper cover the temps drop a bit since the most efficient cooling is a proper cooler and not the copper cover, so the thinner the cover the more efficient will be the heat transference to the cooler and the thicker the cover is, the more heat will be trapped there and the top of the cover will never have as much heat to transfer to the cooler than the part inside that makes contact with the die...

As long as the SoC makes *good* contact without a thick layer of thermal paste, sure.
But you are wrong about the heatsink transferring heat more efficiently than the IHS. Assuming they are both made of the same type of metal, they will both transfer heat at exactly the same rate. It's inherent to the type of the metal itself (which is why copper heatsinks are a bit more efficient than aluminium ones, they transfer heat better)
Plus, the dimensions and finish of the IHS are precisely made so that the least amount of thermal paste is needed for the entire surface to make good contact. Sanding it down will likely make the surface more uneven or slightly slanted meaning there will be a thicker layer of thermal paste in spots, negatively affecting cooling. The only way sanding it down would improve thermals is if you do it finely enough and with such precision that the surface stays completely flat but is smoother than the factory finish, so that even less thermal paste is needed to make good contact. That's easier said than done though, and has nothing to do with the IHS being a worse thermal conductor.

Are there two sheets of copper? I know there's one attached to the heatpipe. Doesn't that go directly onto the SoC?

guily6669 · Oct 25, 2019

the thing is the IHS doesn't cool it almost nothing and the more metal you have the less heat will go to the actual cooler which is actually the efficient part that will cool it down, the thinner it is it actually improves cooling efficiency and max cooling efficiency is by getting rid of the IHS because the effective cooler will be the one that gets the heat first and the cooler is not just a piece of metal that barely does anything, it has copper vapour chambers, it has the fins, fans and everything...

Like a Pan the bigger it is, the cooler it is to the touch on the upper sides of it as the heat transference will not be effective as a way smaller pan made of the same material, the IHS is the same, the thicker it is the less temperature will go to the proper cooler which is way more effective than just a piece of solid metal

And the IHS like I said is only common nowadays for safety reasons so that people don't crack the die or badly apply thermal paste making bad hot spots, but other than that direct die to cooler is the best option ever for best cooling performance, and I guess that's why they don't use them on laptops because size and weight matters so they can't put huge coolers and need max performance so the die is exposed for better cooling efficiency and most still run damn hot as most always save in the cooler...

The Real Jdbye said:
Are there two sheets of copper? I know there's one attached to the heatpipe. Doesn't that go directly onto the SoC?

Theres the die, then there's thermal paste to a copper sheet that is almost like a copper tape super thin that folds easily, then there's another layer of thermal paste and then goes to the copper thicker plate that is directly soldered on the copper pipe which should have vaporizing liquid inside to transfer the heat better to the exiting fins that will be effective cooled by the air from the fans...

This is so damn bad design, they could have made the cooler plate like thicker or something and get rid of that crap tape copper sheet crap...

PS: I still havent disassembled my switch, I don't know exactly if the cooler plate does really make full contact with the die or not, but since everyone report better temps I guess it does... Anyway when I will mod mine I think I will still sand the surrounding metal cover just to make sure the cooler makes perfect contact as it doesn't cost me anything to sand it a bit all around where the cooler attaches...

Volkaru · Nov 2, 2019

Msebastian said:
Oh, wait. I'm using the wrong terminology. The shield is the large piece of metal that covers the back of the switch (copper pipes etc). I also removed the metal covering the RAM chips to see what's under it.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

After you removed the I/O covering, are you saying you applied paste to the RAM under the I/O shield?

Yes. Getting it off without messing with the other components was probably the toughest part. I'd heard of other people clipping nearby parts of the MOBO trying to get it off. So I spent forever doing it as safely as I could.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Sorry for not posting temp results til now. With the new sys-clk logging it became super easy. Even with max OCs on Witcher 3, Skyrim with heavy mods, and Dragon Quest XI with the 60fps patch... I've never gone above 55-60c as reported by sys-clk. The back near the fan of my switch gets warm. But that's actually a good thing. Transfers the heat away from the components themselves. I only feel heat from the back along the pipe and near the fan. And even then, it's more comfortable than other switches I've held that heat up with stock.

Msebastian · Nov 5, 2019

Volkaru said:
Yes. Getting it off without messing with the other components was probably the toughest part. I'd heard of other people clipping nearby parts of the MOBO trying to get it off. So I spent forever doing it as safely as I could.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Sorry for not posting temp results til now. With the new sys-clk logging it became super easy. Even with max OCs on Witcher 3, Skyrim with heavy mods, and Dragon Quest XI with the 60fps patch... I've never gone above 55-60c as reported by sys-clk. The back near the fan of my switch gets warm. But that's actually a good thing. Transfers the heat away from the components themselves. I only feel heat from the back along the pipe and near the fan. And even then, it's more comfortable than other switches I've held that heat up with stock.

Thanks for clarifying. I did take off the ram shield safely to look under. I ended up putting the shield back on without paste/pads on the ram. I put new paste on the SOC, thermal pads on top of the ram shield, copper pipe directly on the SOC, and more thermal pads on the copper pipe. Very pleased with the results.

guily6669 · Nov 5, 2019

Yeah I don't think you need to care with the ram chips at all since even a lot of expensive GPU's even for OC sadly some don't even cool the faster GDDR5 memories for example, don't know is with GDDR6 if its more usual or not to be cooled so I don't think the switch low frequency, low power, low bandwidth older memories will need any cooling at all...

I still haven't modded my Switch yet, but yesterday I modded my PC GPU and replaced the Artic MX4 that I had previously used on it with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, this new thermal paste totally disappointed me on the way it spreads, MX4 is super easy to work on and its very liquid, the Kryonaut is the most expensive thermal paste I ever bought and its thick and very silicon glue like, I couldnt even spread a thin layer on the GPU die jeez that crap glued to the fingers\card\spatula and would come out of the die glued to whatever I used to spread it, what a crappy mess...

I bought 1 gr of Kryonaut for the switch too, but I don't even know if I will use the Kryonaut or the MX4 on my switch when I mod it...

Henx · Nov 6, 2019

guily6669 said:
Yeah I don't think you need to care with the ram chips at all since even a lot of expensive GPU's even for OC sadly some don't even cool the faster GDDR5 memories for example, don't know is with GDDR6 if its more usual or not to be cooled so I don't think the switch low frequency, low power, low bandwidth older memories will need any cooling at all...

I still haven't modded my Switch yet, but yesterday I modded my PC GPU and replaced the Artic MX4 that I had previously used on it with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut, this new thermal paste totally disappointed me on the way it spreads, MX4 is super easy to work on and its very liquid, the Kryonaut is the most expensive thermal paste I ever bought and its thick and very silicon glue like, I couldnt even spread a thin layer on the GPU die jeez that crap glued to the fingers\card\spatula and would come out of the die glued to whatever I used to spread it, what a crappy mess...

I bought 1 gr of Kryonaut for the switch too, but I don't even know if I will use the Kryonaut or the MX4 on my switch when I mod it...

You shouldn't spread the thermal paste onto the die. It will create tiny air pockets in which heat will be trapped and not passed into the cooler. It is waiting for a disaster!
Check out this video showing spread comparisons:

I use Kryonaut frequently, and although it is difficult to manage, I always have great results. Normally use the cross method, but I spread until almost the end of the corners (unlike the video). It is not conductive, so even if a little bit comes out, it is no problem. Important thing is that it covers the whole die in the most smooth way possible.

mattytrog · Nov 6, 2019

When I replace compound on units, I remove the RAM shield by gently going round the RAM chips and gently levering the metal hoops over the tangs.
Once half way, shield should lift, probably 5mm or so. Once at this point, wobble it from side to side, which will free it from the tegra also.

I used to remove the copper tape and discard it. However, if you are careful, you can clean the copper tape with some IPA and reuse it. I do this now.

When shield is spotless, apply pea-sized of non-conductive, non-capacitive compond(I only use ceramic-based compounds).

Do not spread it around, let the copper pad do the spreading. Refit clean shield.

Result - Copper shield retained (though with ceramic compounds, running without it makes it cooler than stock. Ceramic compound with copper shim = cooler still.)
and not bent and look like a dog has chewed it.

linuxares · Nov 6, 2019

mattytrog said:
When I replace compound on units, I remove the RAM shield by gently going round the RAM chips and gently levering the metal hoops over the tangs.
Once half way, shield should lift, probably 5mm or so. Once at this point, wobble it from side to side, which will free it from the tegra also.

I used to remove the copper tape and discard it. However, if you are careful, you can clean the copper tape with some IPA and reuse it. I do this now.

When shield is spotless, apply pea-sized of non-conductive, non-capacitive compond(I only use ceramic-based compounds).

Do not spread it around, let the copper pad do the spreading. Refit clean shield.

Result - Copper shield retained (though with ceramic compounds, running without it makes it cooler than stock. Ceramic compound with copper shim = cooler still.)
and not bent and look like a dog has chewed it.

I personally spread it.

mattytrog · Nov 6, 2019

linuxares said:
I personally spread it.

~~Big nono~~... Little nono...You get pockets of air under the paste when sink is bolted down.

On the Tegra, this may be less of an issue. But in the large-heat-spreader CPUs, it can be a problem as the surface area is bigger.

linuxares · Nov 6, 2019

mattytrog said:
Big nono... You get pockets of air under the paste when sink is bolted down.

On the Tegra, this may be less of an issue. But in the large-heat-spreader CPUs, it can be a problem as the surface area is bigger.

Never had an issue, so nah. The airpocket might be there but eventually gets moshed out. I never, ever had an issue. Even Linus Tech Tips tried the same method without issues. The big nono is to much or to little. Else it's fine whatever method you use.

hippy dave · Nov 6, 2019

linuxares said:
I personally spread it.

Enough about your sex life

I claim no knowledge of this stuff, but whatever Matty does works great, I can barely feel warmth on the back case when things are running full blast (plenty of hot air coming out the vent tho, which is what you want).

mattytrog · Nov 6, 2019

linuxares said:
Never had an issue, so nah. The airpocket might be there but eventually gets moshed out. I never, ever had an issue. Even Linus Tech Tips tried the same method without issues. The big nono is to much or to little. Else it's fine whatever method you use.

Can`t say I had a problem either.

But they say its best practice. As long as the job is done

LuigiXL · Nov 6, 2019

Forgive the possibly stupid question, do you guys just relace it so that it isnt as hot to the touch? Or do fans kick in less? Cant believe the mess some of them look like they're shipped in!

Volkaru · Nov 6, 2019

mattytrog said:
~~Big nono~~... Little nono...You get pockets of air under the paste when sink is bolted down.

On the Tegra, this may be less of an issue. But in the large-heat-spreader CPUs, it can be a problem as the surface area is bigger.

A few posts I looked up said you want to spread it on the entire surface of the chip, since it's an SoC. I figured i'd follow the tried and true method of doing this, as opposed to treating it like a PC CPU and then having my chip fry because of a section that doesn't have paste on it. (I had removed the shim entirely)

mattytrog · Nov 6, 2019

Volkaru said:
A few posts I looked up said you want to spread it on the entire surface of the chip, since it's an SoC. I figured i'd follow the tried and true method of doing this, as opposed to treating it like a PC CPU and then having my chip fry because of a section that doesn't have paste on it. (I had removed the shim entirely)

TBH, @linuxares is right. The die just isn`t big enough on the Tegra to cause hotspot issues IMHO.

I`ve been pi$$ing around with computers for 30 years and it is just an old habit that I let the heatsink spread it around. In the old Socket 7 days, processors really used to cook when using a high multiplier (ie the K6-2)

Like I say, the problems would come with bigger dies / heatspreaders, and not getting enough pressure on the heatsink to get the air bubbles out.

That is the theory. In practice, how much it actually affects the system is subjective.

It just goes against my OCD to spread it around.

The less paste, the better. It is only to fill the micron-sized gaps left by the machined heatsink. A lot of younguns nowadays slap it all over and make a right mess.

linuxares · Nov 6, 2019

Hehe it's just a matter of taste Matty, I've been dicking around with computer for somewhat 30 years as well (I began early... my father owned computers all my life)

mattytrog said:
A lot of younguns nowadays slap it all over and make a right mess.

Especially if they follow The Verge tutorial xD

Viri · Nov 6, 2019

Since I don't feel like going through 9 pages of this thread. Did anyone post any temperature comparisons of using stock thermal, and using better thermal paste?

mattytrog · Nov 6, 2019

Viri said:
Since I don't feel like going through 9 pages of this thread. Did anyone post any temperature comparisons of using stock thermal, and using better thermal paste?

The next one that comes in, I`ll do just that.

Took some readings last year but buggered if I can find them. Dog probably chewed them or something

JumpMan3 · Nov 6, 2019

Is putting the ram shield with the copper back in necessary or just recommend? I'm about to change the paste on my cousin's overheating switch, but I'm afraid I might screw up and not get the shield back on as it looks easy to bend.

mattytrog · Nov 6, 2019

JumpMan3 said:
Is putting the ram shield with the copper back in necessary or just recommend? I'm about to change the paste on my cousin's overheating switch, but I'm afraid I might screw up and not get the shield back on as it looks easy to bend.

Not strictly necessary. But it helps with heat dissipation.

It is easy to bend. But no big deal if it bends a bit.

If its overheating, check the fan is working first.

Hardware Exchanging thermal paste?

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