Following the controversy of Shenmue III becoming an Epic exclusive, backers can now get refunds

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During E3 2019, it had been quietly revealed that Shenmue III would be headed to the Epic Games Store for PC, as an exclusive. This contrasted with what had been initially promised to Kickstarter backers--a Steam key--which resulted in controversy and confusion as to how things would play out for those who paid for the game and requested a digital PC copy. When it was announced that backers would be unable to request a refund, things became even more contentious. Aiming to calm the masses, a message from the Shenmue III development team noted that the Ys Net and Deep Silver would be looking into how best to work the situation out. Now, after a few weeks, it appears that the team has come up with a solution.

Those who backed the game get one of four options:
  • a. PC Physical: Package (Disc) + EGS Key
  • b. PC Digital: EGS Key
  • c. PS4 Physical: Package (Disc)
  • d. PS4 Digital: PSN Voucher Code
For those that choose the PC option, you'll get a copy of the game on the Epic Game Store, but you'll also receive a Steam key as well, which will arrive exactly one year post-launch. Backers can also switch their platform to PS4, if they no longer wish to have the game on PC.

Most importantly, refunds will now be allowed, if none of the above choices suit you.

:arrow: Source
 

FAST6191

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Is it really that hard to understand why people wouldn't like the idea of using EGS? Yes, it meets the bare minimum of functionality for a launcher-storefront. AOL also meets the bare minimum of functionality for an ISP. Huawei meets the bare minimum of functionality for smartphones. There are still massive downsides to trusting these companies with your money and data. You can't expect most customers to be fine with the bare minimum, particularly when the competition has been providing far more than that for years or even decades.
I can understand a minor distaste at a minor inconvenience -- if they made it to the point in life where they can sign up for a crowdfunding effort they can surely make a throwaway for a one off game. The level I am seeing here (one bordering on or showing some of the hallmarks of various computing holy wars or console wars if we are looking more at games) is not one I can understand. It is not like the backers are not going to get the game, or not going to get a major component of the game. It is not like Valve/Steam are some innocent little entity so benevolent in nature that risking their happiness is an affront to all that is good in the world, or that Valve/Steam is holding back the tide or keeping things funded/ticking where others would not*.

*I know they are a decent contributor to a lot of open source, and the long term is nice but by the same logic Epic is funding sure to be popular, artistically or culturally relevant titles and surely that also counts in this equation.

I necessarily don't expect customers to be fine with the bare minimum (though I am still dubious on the value of sum total of valve's token offerings -- maybe it is that old Microsoft word thing of everybody uses only 10%, but a different 10%), though history has shown they can handle it a lot of the time. From what I have seen I would similarly not call it bare minimum, or at least it is not the latest in a long line of abusers or the term alpha or beta.

Similarly I have generally found Huawei to be a reasonable maker of phones -- if nothing else they still offer external cards and a 3.5mm jack, all with half nice hardware, which is more than can be said for a lot of things these days. Bit light on the easily swappable battery but baby steps and all that.


Because its the Epic Games Store and they promised the backers Steam Keys upon launch but since its gonna be an EGS exclusive that's not possible. The EGS is a failure you have to admit.

I don't know how we can call EGS a failure if it is still actively supported and developed -- I am sure they would have loved Valve, GOG, gamersgate, greenmangaming, whatever Discord are doing, humble bundle and all the others to get on the blower and say we are chucking in the towel, here are the keys to the front door. It might well end up a failure in the future, no great loss though if so.
As for the first part are Steam keys such a valuable part of the game that you would refund investors? I get it for multiplayer that will never come, or single player that will never come, or some minigame/boss rush/similar extras that might never come or something of that sort of magnitude but again something that will run on the same hardware, the same OS, no radical software tweaks needed, be the same game it would have otherwise been (if not better), at presumably the same launch timeframe, require no subscription... why the fuss? If Valve had decided to stick up the middle digit to the devs here (we will go with for no good reason, mainly as Valve have done that in the past) and they had to find a home on GOG or something instead would there have been the backlash?

Because, regardless of your thoughts on steam or the epic store, it's a change in the terms made after the money was already paid.
It is a change, one I would argue is quite minor, in development goals after an investment was made. Not really the same as a hard contract, or a major claim being unable to be met.
 
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Xzi

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It is not like the backers are not going to get the game, or not going to get a major component of the game.
They aren't getting what they were promised, and that's reason enough to request a refund. Bait and switch is not acceptable in any other sales industry, and we certainly shouldn't be giving the impression that it's acceptable in the gaming industry.

It is not like Valve/Steam are some innocent little entity so benevolent in nature that risking their happiness is an affront to all that is good in the world, or that Valve/Steam is holding back the tide or keeping things funded/ticking where others would not. I know they are a decent contributor to a lot of open source, and the long term is nice but by the same logic Epic is funding sure to be popular, artistically or culturally relevant titles and surely that also counts in this equation.
Valve does actually help fund development for a lot of smaller titles, and unlike Epic, it's not with the expectation that those games will be made exclusive to Steam. I'm also not convinced that any game Epic has made exclusive wouldn't have been developed without their funding, given that many of those games were already crowdfunded or had contracts with big-name publishers already in place.

From what I have seen I would similarly not call it bare minimum, or at least it is not the latest in a long line of abusers or the term alpha or beta.
I'm not sure how EGS could possibly be any more bare bones. Epic is trying to take a swing at Steam before they've even managed to gain feature parity with Origin, Uplay, Battle.net, and other small players.

Similarly I have generally found Huawei to be a reasonable maker of phones -- if nothing else they still offer external cards and a 3.5mm jack, all with half nice hardware, which is more than can be said for a lot of things these days. Bit light on the easily swappable battery but baby steps and all that.
They do nothing to stand out from other budget brands, and the difference is that you have at least some assurance the other budget brands aren't sending all your personal data straight to the Chinese government.

Similarly, EGS' security is so terrible that competitive Fortnite players have had their accounts compromised while streaming. Not to mention Tencent will soon have a majority stake in Epic, and they aren't exactly known for tight data privacy standards.
 
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Edgarska

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It is a change, one I would argue is quite minor, in development goals after an investment was made. Not really the same as a hard contract, or a major claim being unable to be met.

Then I guess this is subjective, for me any change is an important change after the transaction is completed and voids the original agreement.
 

Armadillo

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I view the dislike of Epic, whilst simultaneously praising or at least tolerating Valve, to be a logically dissonant act, and for each to be basically the same as the other (at least as far as I trust them), albeit Valve enjoying an effective monopoly at present that I would rather not see be so. If you get people to question it (tell me why and all that) then as an argument tactic I find it works better than telling people that they are dumb cunts and should learn to logic, moreover despite what some might think I am not set in my ways and might actually encounter an argument that holds water this time around (be it a further development, better modelling for those things based on probabilities or a point yet not considered).
It's only logicially dissonant because you don't see the features that Valve provide as a good thing. You see it as just a launcher and the other features don't matter, in which case, yeah they are the same.

Others clearly don't, others value the feature set of steam and the convienace it provides. It's not that people are dumb cunts and don't know logic, it's you see them as the same product because XYZ is not important to you. Others don't. There is no logic flaw if you find value in valves feature set, as Epic and Valve aren't the same. Getting people to question it, only works if we are dealing with facts.

We are not, whether you find the feature set important and valuable, is an opinion. Those who do find them important will never see Epic and Valve as "the same" no matter how many times you ask them why.


The pitchforks thing is a turn of phrase, though a fitting one as plenty seem to be calling for Epic to be shunned or publicly chastised for what I see as bog standard business dealings (if you have a weak product can you build something to make it better? OK can you buy in something? Even better can you buy something that lessens a competitor's market position? Tell me you would not find that in any business manual anywhere), or for dubious reasons (I already covered the odd use of the terms bribe and exclusive as it pertains to this situation or Epic's efforts as a whole).

People have their pitchforks out for epic. Never in question, it is fitting. I specifically said no one said you should have them out. As you seemed to be under the impression people want were annoyed that you specifically are not there with them.



Wandering off having heard an answer, not necessarily a satisfactory one, would surely be a greater disservice to the discussion.

It's not really a discussion though is it?

It's not a discussion on why people like those features or whatever, it's just you asking why people like Valve over and over again, because the answer doesn't satisfy you.

Or if you prefer mine is always to reason why, why in this case do people deserve a refund in an investment scenario for a seemingly inconsequential difference; ignoring the development help then presumably the same game will result, presumably the same hardware would play it (or will play it when stripped of Epic's DRM), all without a radical software tweak on par with installing an OS or something, without a subscription, and without any kind of extra hardware investment, all with the greater question of how can seemingly/purportedly logical people justify the upset at Epic which have done nothing outrageous* by the standards of normal business being in the background there.

Because that's what was offered. Simple as that. Invest in this, get a steam key. Simple, whether they are different enough makes no difference, you were offered X if you give them money, now they want to give you Y. Doesn't matter the reason why you don't like it. X was offered, you are given Y. Refund should be offered.

Not every form of digital distribution/downloadable games -- plenty offer DRM free which is as good as from my perspective (honour system probably less desirable to devs but eh). Valve took active measures though and continued to do so, therefore they are culpable, even if they were just following orders (worse is they buck trends when it suits them all the time). It does also mean I am none too great a fan of Epic but if the arsehole takes out the bastard or they both die from their wounds while I look on, popcorn in hand, then I am OK with that.

I mentioned gog. That's DRM free, and the terms forbid it. There is no option to transfer games to another account.

Being "good enough" for you, doesn't equal allowing the resale of games which is what you were complaining about. It's just with drm free there is no way to stop it.
 

Pipistrele

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The list of things EGS can't provide beyond that though seems pitifully small or otherwise easily resolved.
The list is pretty large (as was summarized by me and posted more comprehensively in a pic above) and can't be resolved without third party solutions, so if you're just going to ignore that point, I have nothing else to add.
 
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medoli900

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The hate for the Epic launcher is understandable. Any exclusivity on PC means that you have to have that launcher always installed, because DRM. Not everyone can afford to have multiple launcher to bloat their computer.
 

Jayro

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We just want everything on Steam, because that's where most of us have our largest game collections. More and more game launchers suck, hence the boycott.
 

Jimbo_Slim

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People leaving EGS in the dust about how barebones it is and I'm over here thinking, "Well it came out like a couple years ago and if Economics taught me anything, it's that anything that is poor/third-world will catch up to the leaders/those with technology and catch up and end up being more advanced than those leaders".

Epic Games Store is still new. I'm giving it some time, but it is a shame that I'd need 2 launchers to hold my games. Steam isn't in the clear as I can't sell the games I played once or twice but don't want due to how digital games work. Steam may be the most popular due to time and the fact that most people think Steam when they think PC gaming, but it's hardly flawed. I'd rather have everything on my Switch since it's on the go and has 3rd party games so my Steam library is bitin' the dust.

The whole deal with Shenmue becoming an exclusive for EGS after it was stated to be on Steam is pretty bad, since this is essentially bait-and-switch, perhaps unintentionally.

(Don't really care about the game so take this with a grain of salt)
 
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Sillybunnie

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they should just cancel the game and erase all copies source, then all the cry babies can be happy that no one gets to play or enjoy it because of their temper tantrum
 

DBlaze

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Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.
Because you make promises and then back out of it. I'm not sure if you ever had any promises broken to you, specially when you paid for it, but usually that tends to upset people, idk.

On the note of epic store, i'm not a fan of how mr. Sweeney handles his arguments about competition being healthy, while all he does is force a division by buying up exclusive access on his store (timed or not), he's a massive hypocrite at best.
If his store is so great for developers / publishers, whatever gets the biggest cut, then why don't they go to that store voluntarily, instead of having to be bought?
 
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Ericthegreat

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Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.
I think people just hate the epic store, or they've found a way to justify pirateing it (for those weird ppl that don't pirate, but look for the smallest thing to happen so they can say they were forced to pirate it)
 

spectral

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Them promising multiplayer and backing out. Sure offer refunds as some kind of good will gesture if you want/can as that is a fundamental shift in offerings. From a technical sense you are some kind of investor so "this is why you never invest what you can't afford to lose" is in full force but hey.
Them making people use an alternative free launcher on an identical system for the same game (or indeed potentially better if it the deal resulted in some assistance with dev)... not seeing the need.



Why? People club together to make projects, purchases and more happen that would otherwise take a lot of finance all the time. Why would it not be an option for games or inherently flawed for use in games? I have many problems with the amounts asked for vs the timeframes and results expected to be achieved but as a general concept there are more than enough people interested in games to fund the development of games if they all club together.

This will be to stop potential lawsuits on the basis of false advertising. As inconsequential as the change in launcher may or may not be, you legally can't just advertise one thing and deliver another.
 
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anhminh

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The hate for the Epic launcher is understandable. Any exclusivity on PC means that you have to have that launcher always installed, because DRM. Not everyone can afford to have multiple launcher to bloat their computer.
Yeah, another app icon on my precious desktop and hundred of Megabytes on my 6 Terabytes PC are too much of investment for a game I want to play. /s

Where is the hate for Nintendo when they force you to buy their expensive low spec toy and use they crappy store for exclusive game?
 

DBlaze

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Where is the hate for Nintendo when they force you to buy their expensive low spec toy and use they crappy store for exclusive game?
Except they don't? Consoles having their own dedicated store makes a whole lot more sense than a computer having 1 dedicated store for exclusives.

That's like saying valve or epic is forcing you to buy a computer because you want to play video games on a computer, the store is the problem here, not the system.
 
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Edgarska

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I think people just hate the epic store, or they've found a way to justify pirateing it (for those weird ppl that don't pirate, but look for the smallest thing to happen so they can say they were forced to pirate it)
Or some people don't like sudden changes in a product they already paid for, after they paid for it. In fact, this is illegal in any other industry other than videogames.
 

DANTENDO

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Those who don't want to read 6 pages of 90% bullshit and just want to enjoy the game buy it on ps4:D
 

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