Following the controversy of Shenmue III becoming an Epic exclusive, backers can now get refunds

f39161b437eaee0b9f62abac2fd0e25b_original.png

During E3 2019, it had been quietly revealed that Shenmue III would be headed to the Epic Games Store for PC, as an exclusive. This contrasted with what had been initially promised to Kickstarter backers--a Steam key--which resulted in controversy and confusion as to how things would play out for those who paid for the game and requested a digital PC copy. When it was announced that backers would be unable to request a refund, things became even more contentious. Aiming to calm the masses, a message from the Shenmue III development team noted that the Ys Net and Deep Silver would be looking into how best to work the situation out. Now, after a few weeks, it appears that the team has come up with a solution.

Those who backed the game get one of four options:
  • a. PC Physical: Package (Disc) + EGS Key
  • b. PC Digital: EGS Key
  • c. PS4 Physical: Package (Disc)
  • d. PS4 Digital: PSN Voucher Code
For those that choose the PC option, you'll get a copy of the game on the Epic Game Store, but you'll also receive a Steam key as well, which will arrive exactly one year post-launch. Backers can also switch their platform to PS4, if they no longer wish to have the game on PC.

Most importantly, refunds will now be allowed, if none of the above choices suit you.

:arrow: Source
 

Issac

Iᔕᔕᗩᑕ
Supervisor
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Messages
7,025
Trophies
3
Location
Sweden
XP
7,343
Country
Sweden
It's a single game for fucks sake.. You're not gonna switch over completely, are you?
Metro is one more, Borderlands is one more, and who knows which games will be exclusive in the future.

Another thing to consider.
"Has Shenmue 1 and 2":
Steam - yes
Epic - no

Why wouldn't you want the third game together with the other two?

The fewer accounts I have to get to keep my digital PC game collection, the better, in my opinion.
 

Armadillo

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2003
Messages
4,279
Trophies
3
XP
5,256
Country
United Kingdom
--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

If it works and I have not yet seen a counter I can roll with I will continue with it.

Simply dimissing everything as "not a big deal" is not really countering it. It's not really engaging in debate or discussions as you claimed earlier either. But if it makes you happy, sure, crack on. Keep coming into topic after topic, asking "what's the issue with epic" just so you can say "that's not a big deal".

Also how am I to conclude otherwise?

Oh, I dunno. You could actually take others people opinions onboard? Maybe, just maybe, what you see as downsides, others don't? The good outweighs the bad for many? You can disagree sure, but you could accept others have a different opinion.

Seems a bridge too far for you though, seems like only yours matter. You have an axe to grind with Valve, you don't see value in what they provide, so the only conclusion is, everyone else is wrong and have misplaced loyalty to valve.

Valve have robbed people of the ability to resell games, they have played the censor on more than one occasion, played gatekeeper on many others, combination of the previous lot means we have also seen games vanish from sale, they are essentially a monopoly and in doing so they effectively collect a tax for doing not a lot... why people accord them the good feelings they do I seriously wonder at.


Valve didn't rob you. Online accounts did. I can't resell my bad company 2, despite it being neither origin or steamworks, because the key tied to an ea account.

Games disappearing, rights running out is somehow valves fault? They disappear from consoles as well. Valve don't make it so keys can't activate, unused keys from physical copies can still be activated. Stuff leaving is a problem with digital distribution, not Steam.

Not a lot according to you, which seems to be all that matters. I guess you will just have to keep wondering, people have told you again and again, but you can't seem to accept what you deem as unimportant, others do not. So that's a question that will forever be unanswered for you.
 
Last edited by Armadillo,

Xzi

Time to fly, 621
Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
17,736
Trophies
3
Location
The Lands Between
Website
gbatemp.net
XP
8,528
Country
United States
Epic is going to have to get used to paying out for refunds if they're going to keep snatching up crowdfunded games as exclusives well after keys were promised for another platform. And I think they're well aware that crowdfunded games which promise EGS keys from the beginning are a lot less likely to meet their funding goals. Quite the dilemma. When you can't be arsed to provide half-decent customer facing software, bait and switch becomes an almost mandatory strategy.
 
Last edited by Xzi,

kevin corms

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
1,014
Trophies
0
Age
40
XP
1,777
Country
Canada
Epic is going to have to get used to paying out for refunds if they're going to keep snatching up crowdfunded games as exclusives well after keys were promised for another platform. And I think they're well aware that crowdfunded games which promise EGS keys from the beginning are a lot less likely to meet their funding goals. Quite the dilemma. When you can't be arsed to provide half-decent customer facing software, bait and switch becomes an almost mandatory strategy.
They didnt have to, but they gave them refunds to shut them up. A few hundred people can stir up a lot of crap on twitter.
 

Kioku

猫。子猫です!
Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2007
Messages
12,003
Trophies
3
Location
In the Murderbox!
Website
www.twitch.tv
XP
16,127
Country
United States
They didnt have to, but they gave them refunds to shut them up. A few hundred people can stir up a lot of crap on twitter.
I assume you have a source for the numbers? Seems like more than a "few hundred" people take issue with Epic.
 

Xzi

Time to fly, 621
Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
17,736
Trophies
3
Location
The Lands Between
Website
gbatemp.net
XP
8,528
Country
United States
They didnt have to, but they gave them refunds to shut them up. A few hundred people can stir up a lot of crap on twitter.
I mean, the other option was simply providing the Steam keys which were promised to backers. If the expectation is that the game will sell well after release, that shouldn't be an issue.

In any case, people who helped make the game happen by funding its development shouldn't need to complain for a month straight before the publisher finally does the bare minimum to make things right. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in other potential customers. If the game turns out to be buggy and broken, will they also have to complain for a month before getting a refund?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ryccardo and Kioku

Armadillo

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2003
Messages
4,279
Trophies
3
XP
5,256
Country
United Kingdom
No point arguing over numbers. No one has any either way.

Market will decide, just as it did with UWP and the Windows store. That was also allegedly a minoirity of loud people and then suddenly MS buddy up with Steam.
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,321
Country
United Kingdom
--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Simply dimissing everything as "not a big deal" is not really countering it. It's not really engaging in debate or discussions as you claimed earlier either. But if it makes you happy, sure, crack on. Keep coming into topic after topic, asking "what's the issue with epic" just so you can say "that's not a big deal".



Oh, I dunno. You could actually take others people opinions onboard? Maybe, just maybe, what you see as downsides, others don't? The good outweighs the bad for many? You can disagree sure, but you could accept others have a different opinion.

Seems a bridge too far for you though, seems like only yours matter. You have an axe to grind with Valve, you don't see value in what they provide, so the only conclusion is, everyone else is wrong and have misplaced loyalty to valve.




Valve didn't rob you. Online accounts did. I can't resell my bad company 2, despite it being neither origin or steamworks, because the key tied to an ea account.

Games disappearing, rights running out is somehow valves fault? They disappear from consoles as well. Valve don't make it so keys can't activate, unused keys from physical copies can still be activated. Stuff leaving is a problem with digital distribution, not Steam.

Not a lot according to you, which seems to be all that matters. I guess you will just have to keep wondering, people have told you again and again, but you can't seem to accept what you deem as unimportant, others do not. So that's a question that will forever be unanswered for you.

How am I not accepting others have a different opinion? I am reading them, interpreting them and responding to them using what I understand of the language we appear to be conversing in. That necessarily means I accept others have different opinions. As for only my opinions matter then not really -- I am just a dude on an internet forum, one advocating for their approach to the world (which is a fairly common thing to be doing in such a place). I do see a value in what Valve provide, however the cost of it is way in excess of that from where I sit. Similarly in this sort of thing everybody else is free to have their own variables in the "something is worth what someone else is willing to pay" equation.

As far as not a big deal then the primary role of a game launcher these days is to sell me games and let me download them/play them then Epic have that on lock it seems. Everything else is ancillary. If Valve want to gate off* some extra functionality to entice people then that is a fine way to play it (in business terms that is probably something known as intangible extras). Some of those things Epic is lacking are no question nice, however most of those are happily provided at OS level, by third parties (usually for free) and what remains largely ranks around "Steam uses my favourite colour as its background when it launches". If people want to bring up a lack of a few ancillary features as to why Epic are the king arseholes and should be shunned then play it as you will, don't expect me to be there with the pitchforks and torches though. From where I sit "exclusivity" is another take on acting as a publisher (and again this means another free account with a simple program that people likely have dozens or already, no subscriptions, no extra hardware, no crazy software reconfigurations) and that also goes for the claim of "bribe" which some were throwing around.
If it helps then feel free to read "not a big deal" as "why would I make a big deal of that being there or lacking?".

*if they were truly the magnanimous saviours of gaming that some paint them as it would not be gated but they are free to gate it though and I will not fault them for that one.

Valve have pushed the no second hand thing for a long time, argued against it when courts tried to introduce it and argued against things that de facto resemble resale options, coupled with their nice little monopoly then they as good as did it, and it would have been trivial (barring existing contracts) for them to implement it on their system. If resale of existing copies was a thing then it if not solves then renders the disappearing games the same as physical, give or take shrinking pool of saleable copies probably shrinking at a slower rate (account destruction, deaths without concern for such things and whatnot being lower than spurned lovers and bored mothers sticking things in the bin, battery leaks, little brothers needing a bad Frisbee and general physical issues), and that is the same as everything else which is a bit sad that we still have the technology to solve already in place**but we can work on that one later. The Stockholm bit was a snarky remark but the underlying point still stands -- I really am at a loss as to why people are willing to jump in and defend Valve as much as they seem to be and focusing so much ire on Epic.

**or we could see them do something similar to Gamestop's buy their own stock of whatever that Wii RPG was upon warning of removal such that for a few more years they would be the sellers.
 
D

Deleted User

Guest
I agree that backers should get refunded but at the same time you gotta be mad petty to actually withdraw funding from the game because of a launcher you gotta download.

Oh well, at least Epic is rich enough the refunds are coming out of their pockets and not the poor devs who didn't even make the decision.
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,321
Country
United Kingdom
I agree that backers should get refunded but at the same time you gotta be mad petty to actually withdraw funding from the game because of a launcher you gotta download.

Oh well, at least Epic is rich enough the refunds are coming out of their pockets and not the poor devs who didn't even make the decision.

For the most part I view crowdfunding as an investment, mainly as that it what it was always sold as, and the main thing governing that one is "never invest anything you can't afford to lose". If they can recover something in the event of outright fraud then that is good.

If a game dev realises they will not be able to deliver on a major anticipated feature, or the whole thing, and they have not spent the money then I can see offering a refund as a good will gesture, but far from any kind of requirement. "as yet unreleased game to be downloaded from different location" does not seem like anything worth getting worked up over, much less to the point of offering refunds.

As far as devs making decisions then who had the creative and financial control here? While I have no objection to big publishers funding or gauging interest in a game through such things rather than a bank loan, investor call, or their own pockets, which was something some people seemed to take exception to in earlier discussions, then was this still something a pub could wrench from the hands of starving devs to give to mean old Epic?
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,321
Country
United Kingdom
I'll never forgive steam for completely annihilating physical on PC
The lack of physical is not a problem -- they could easily provide something with functionality akin to it*, and sort it such that game shops in most places could download things to USB for you (or burn a disc). They however choose not to.

*some big anonymous register of game owners/address and the ability to issue transfer codes to others in the ideal case. Standard account login type setup in the event not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: guisadop

Armadillo

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2003
Messages
4,279
Trophies
3
XP
5,256
Country
United Kingdom
How am I not accepting others have a different opinion? I am reading them, interpreting them and responding to them using what I understand of the language we appear to be conversing in. That necessarily means I accept others have different opinions. As for only my opinions matter then not really -- I am just a dude on an internet forum, one advocating for their approach to the world (which is a fairly common thing to be doing in such a place). I do see a value in what Valve provide, however the cost of it is way in excess of that from where I sit. Similarly in this sort of thing everybody else is free to have their own variables in the "something is worth what someone else is willing to pay" equation.

You accept them, yet you immediately dismiss everyone as not a big deal. Every Epic topic it's the same song and dance. You come in, "just asking question", can't understand why people don't like Epic. You get an answer, dimiss it and we go around again and again.

If you accept others opinions, why do we have this conversation in some form in every Epic topic? It doesn't seem like you accept others opinions when every epic topic we have the same questions. Why do people not like Epic, why do they love Valve, you get your answer, you apparently accept other people have a different opinion and yet like clockwork, there you are in Epic topics "I can't understand why people are so passionate about X issue".

From here it really doesn't seem like you have taken peoples opinions onboard.




As far as not a big deal then the primary role of a game launcher these days is to sell me games and let me download them/play them then Epic have that on lock it seems. Everything else is ancillary. If Valve want to gate off* some extra functionality to entice people then that is a fine way to play it (in business terms that is probably something known as intangible extras). Some of those things Epic is lacking are no question nice, however most of those are happily provided at OS level, by third parties (usually for free) and what remains largely ranks around "Steam uses my favourite colour as its background when it launches". If people want to bring up a lack of a few ancillary features as to why Epic are the king arseholes and should be shunned then play it as you will, don't expect me to be there with the pitchforks and torches though. From where I sit "exclusivity" is another take on acting as a publisher (and again this means another free account with a simple program that people likely have dozens or already, no subscriptions, no extra hardware, no crazy software reconfigurations) and that also goes for the claim of "bribe" which some were throwing around.
If it helps then feel free to read "not a big deal" as "why would I make a big deal of that being there or lacking?".


Did anyone say you should have pitchforks out? No. Likewise, no one says you should personally find it a big deal. It's fine if you don't. Others do, you don't that's fine. But you are the one that keeps asking "why", why do people have an issue, but can't seem to accept the answer, because to you "it's not a big deal".


*if they were truly the magnanimous saviours of gaming that some paint them as it would not be gated but they are free to gate it though and I will not fault them for that one.

Valve have pushed the no second hand thing for a long time, argued against it when courts tried to introduce it and argued against things that de facto resemble resale options, coupled with their nice little monopoly then they as good as did it, and it would have been trivial (barring existing contracts) for them to implement it on their system. If resale of existing copies was a thing then it if not solves then renders the disappearing games the same as physical, give or take shrinking pool of saleable copies probably shrinking at a slower rate (account destruction, deaths without concern for such things and whatnot being lower than spurned lovers and bored mothers sticking things in the bin, battery leaks, little brothers needing a bad Frisbee and general physical issues), and that is the same as everything else which is a bit sad that we still have the technology to solve already in place**but we can work on that one later. The Stockholm bit was a snarky remark but the underlying point still stands --


Everyone pushed the no second hand sales.

Not just Valve. Origin, Battlenet, Steam, everyone, even Epic. Every form of digital distribution pushes "no resales". Valve might have argued against it, because Valve were the big player, so of course it was brought against them, but it's not a Valve thing no matter how much you want it to be.

Even GOG which is completely drm free copies of games doesn't support "resales". There's no way to remove the entitlement from your account and give it to someone else.


I really am at a loss as to why people are willing to jump in and defend Valve as much as they seem to be and focusing so much ire on Epic.

You're at a loss because you want to be. You've had your answer again and again. Valve provides a service, features & convenience that people clearly value. You don't value it the same way, and that's fine. You apparently accept others opinions on this and yet once again at the end of a post, you are at a loss as to why people like Valve despite people telling you why constantly in these topics.

You don't have to accept it, you can disagree, but at this point, I can't see how you are at a loss when people constantly tell you why.
 

BlastedGuy9905

where's the updated autopsy report
Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
2,334
Trophies
1
Age
33
Location
under your desk
XP
4,043
Country
United States
Metro is one more, Borderlands is one more, and who knows which games will be exclusive in the future.

Another thing to consider.
"Has Shenmue 1 and 2":
Steam - yes
Epic - no

Why wouldn't you want the third game together with the other two?

The fewer accounts I have to get to keep my digital PC game collection, the better, in my opinion.
It's better, yeah, but it shouldn't make you refund..
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,321
Country
United Kingdom
You accept them, yet you immediately dismiss everyone as not a big deal. Every Epic topic it's the same song and dance. You come in, "just asking question", can't understand why people don't like Epic. You get an answer, dimiss it and we go around again and again.

If you accept others opinions, why do we have this conversation in some form in every Epic topic? It doesn't seem like you accept others opinions when every epic topic we have the same questions. Why do people not like Epic, why do they love Valve, you get your answer, you apparently accept other people have a different opinion and yet like clockwork, there you are in Epic topics "I can't understand why people are so passionate about X issue".

From here it really doesn't seem like you have taken peoples opinions onboard.







Did anyone say you should have pitchforks out? No. Likewise, no one says you should personally find it a big deal. It's fine if you don't. Others do, you don't that's fine. But you are the one that keeps asking "why", why do people have an issue, but can't seem to accept the answer, because to you "it's not a big deal".





Everyone pushed the no second hand sales.

Not just Valve. Origin, Battlenet, Steam, everyone, even Epic. Every form of digital distribution pushes "no resales". Valve might have argued against it, because Valve were the big player, so of course it was brought against them, but it's not a Valve thing no matter how much you want it to be.

Even GOG which is completely drm free copies of games doesn't support "resales". There's no way to remove the entitlement from your account and give it to someone else.




You're at a loss because you want to be. You've had your answer again and again. Valve provides a service, features & convenience that people clearly value. You don't value it the same way, and that's fine. You apparently accept others opinions on this and yet once again at the end of a post, you are at a loss as to why people like Valve despite people telling you why constantly in these topics.

You don't have to accept it, you can disagree, but at this point, I can't see how you are at a loss when people constantly tell you why.


I view the dislike of Epic, whilst simultaneously praising or at least tolerating Valve, to be a logically dissonant act, and for each to be basically the same as the other (at least as far as I trust them), albeit Valve enjoying an effective monopoly at present that I would rather not see be so. If you get people to question it (tell me why and all that) then as an argument tactic I find it works better than telling people that they are dumb cunts and should learn to logic, moreover despite what some might think I am not set in my ways and might actually encounter an argument that holds water this time around (be it a further development, better modelling for those things based on probabilities or a point yet not considered). Similarly plenty seem content to pour scorn on Epic each time if somehow appearing each time to ask questions (or be timely enough to pre empt it in this case) is a bad thing by virtue of cluttering up the joint.

The pitchforks thing is a turn of phrase, though a fitting one as plenty seem to be calling for Epic to be shunned or publicly chastised for what I see as bog standard business dealings (if you have a weak product can you build something to make it better? OK can you buy in something? Even better can you buy something that lessens a competitor's market position? Tell me you would not find that in any business manual anywhere), or for dubious reasons (I already covered the odd use of the terms bribe and exclusive as it pertains to this situation or Epic's efforts as a whole). This on top of what seems like a massive overreaction to a trifling difference. As far as taking opinions on board then I can state if someone quotes me I definitely read it and if not then chances are if it is a thread I posted in I still read it (and I would hope that mentioning things covered in previous threads but not yet in this shows that I remember the notions put forth too), what am I supposed to do if I find arguments put forth to be weak? Wandering off having heard an answer, not necessarily a satisfactory one, would surely be a greater disservice to the discussion. People are free to redouble their efforts or attempt a different means of justifying why I might have unfairly dismissed something.
Or if you prefer mine is always to reason why, why in this case do people deserve a refund in an investment scenario for a seemingly inconsequential difference; ignoring the development help then presumably the same game will result, presumably the same hardware would play it (or will play it when stripped of Epic's DRM), all without a radical software tweak on par with installing an OS or something, without a subscription, and without any kind of extra hardware investment, all with the greater question of how can seemingly/purportedly logical people justify the upset at Epic which have done nothing outrageous* by the standards of normal business being in the background there.

*maybe even some praiseworthy stuff -- funding and assisting some dev for a marginal cut is not generally viewed as bad.

Not every form of digital distribution/downloadable games -- plenty offer DRM free which is as good as from my perspective (honour system probably less desirable to devs but eh). Valve took active measures though and continued to do so, therefore they are culpable, even if they were just following orders (worse is they buck trends when it suits them all the time). It does also mean I am none too great a fan of Epic but if the arsehole takes out the bastard or they both die from their wounds while I look on, popcorn in hand, then I am OK with that.
 

Xzi

Time to fly, 621
Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
17,736
Trophies
3
Location
The Lands Between
Website
gbatemp.net
XP
8,528
Country
United States
Is it really that hard to understand why people wouldn't like the idea of using EGS? Yes, it meets the bare minimum of functionality for a launcher-storefront. AOL also meets the bare minimum of functionality for an ISP. Huawei meets the bare minimum of functionality for smartphones. There are still massive downsides to trusting these companies with your money and data. You can't expect most customers to be fine with the bare minimum, particularly when the competition has been providing far more than that for years or even decades.
 
Last edited by Xzi,

SlasherGamer21

Well-Known Member
Newcomer
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
59
Trophies
0
Location
Hell
XP
121
Country
Saudi Arabia
Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.

Because its the Epic Games Store and they promised the backers Steam Keys upon launch but since its gonna be an EGS exclusive that's not possible. The EGS is a failure you have to admit.
 

Edgarska

Conjurer of cheap tricks
Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
797
Trophies
0
Age
34
XP
2,084
Country
United States
Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.
Because, regardless of your thoughts on steam or the epic store, it's a change in the terms made after the money was already paid.
 

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
    ButterScott101 @ ButterScott101: +1