Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...

Lacius · Jun 18, 2019

cots said:
Guess I'll repost what I've already posted.

"Your tactics don't fly with me."

If my point was, for example, a person's gender identity doesn't necessarily comport with his or her physiological sex, then it only takes one instance for that to be correct. If my point was that sex is not necessarily binary, then it only takes one intersex person for that to be true. The rarity of these things is irrelevant, and neither is particularly rare.

cots · Jun 18, 2019

AmandaRose said:
Ok so you want to talk about the suicide rate in the trans community.

Lets start with Europe which out of all the continents is the most accepting of the trans community where there is very little transphobic hatred and a trans suicide rate of 3% witch is equal to other suicide rates. Let's break it down further and look at the three most accepting countries in Europe of the trans comunity

Spain trans suicide rate is 1.5%
Italy trans suicide rate is also 1.5%
My own country of Scotland trans suicide rate of 1%

Now let's look at North America especially the USA which has a high rate of transphobic crime.

Suicide rate in the trans community 38%

Surely you can see why the suicide rate is so high in America?

Also funny how the three most vocal people against the trans community in this thread are @cots @MadMageKefka and @Hanafuda are yes you guessed it American.

Well considering I'm not against the trans community your point is mute. I was simply pointing out that choosing to live a risky lifestyle has consequences and encouraging children to do so is going to lead to problems. If a certain lifestyle leads to suicide and then you encourage children to lead that lifestyle and wonder why they are killing themselves you're the problem. I agree if there was more acceptance in the USA that could contribute to less attempts, but you're not going to get acceptance by trying to force your views on others.

The Left wants to push the trans issue on everyone and trans people want to be accepted, but that's going to require accepting that other people don't have to accept you and that the bullying tactics and name calling that the trans movement are doing is going to cause friction. If the Left wasn't trying to make something that isn't an issue for most people an issue then you're going to have to learn that no body has to agree with you and you can't control the argument by misusing terms to try to silence the opposition. If you want to be accepted then maybe you should be the better person and practice acceptance yourself.

Transphobic crime is bad, like the recent killings in Dallas, Texas. That's real transphobia. Claiming you don't agree with someone chopping off their sexual organs because they dislike them isn't phobic behavior. I don't agree that people should be pulling their healthy teeth out to replace them with gold stubs, what phobia does that fit under? Keep up with the name calling and manipulative behavior and you're going to get that in return and nothing is going to get any better.

AmandaRose · Jun 18, 2019

@cots
Again where are children being encouraged to be transgender that simply does not happen here in Scotland. You are making out like I do encourage this behaviour so where in any of my posts have I said I encourage them. I have never said that in fact I have said in posts here I fully support the minimum age policy most countries have to transition.

You are trying to argue a point I actually agree with you on.

MadMageKefka · Jun 18, 2019

AmandaRose said:
So it's just coincide the fact that America is one of the most intolerant countries in the world to the transgender community and the three most vocal people in the thread against the trans community are all American then?

"So it's just coincidence more crimes are tied to black people?"

....See how bad that sounds? A nationalist comment is a nationalist comment.

Lacius · Jun 18, 2019

MadMageKefka said:
I've still yet to see this unidentifiable genitalia you keep talking about, thus why I want to be shown. How can I explain something you cant even prove exists? You're the one claiming it does, not me.

We still haven't established how we are going to discuss the differences between physiology and identity.
Not all individuals who are intersex have ambiguous genitalia, and they're still not necessarily male or female. So, although it's somewhat on-topic, I don't find the topic of intersex genitalia particularly interesting as it pertains to the topic of sex not necessarily being binary.
There are various types of ambiguous genitalia, including but not limited to aphallia, penile agenesis, testicular agenesis, clitoromegaly, chordee, gonadal dysgenesis, ovotestis, etc. I'll let you do your own research.
If there is no room for interpretation, as you said, then arguably all of the above examples could be neither male nor female, since categorizing them would require some interpretation.
You might argue that some of these are not fertile and don't count, but that's irrelevant to whether or not they're something other than male or female.
You might argue that these are mistakes and don't count, but that is an arbitrary distinction given the evolution of sex having been the result of a mistake in the first place. Whether or not they're arbitrarily classified as mistakes is also irrelevant to the fact that some are neither male nor female.

cots · Jun 18, 2019

Lacius said:
Suicide rates are higher for trans people, gay people, etc. because of how these people are treated by society. This is one of the many reasons why these aren't mental disorders.

Except, the main author of the section covering trans people in the DSM-V claims that being trans (not just dysphoria) is a mental disorder and that media is purposely misleading the public. I'm going to take his word over CNN.com.

Or the fact that the WHO stated that being trans is no longer a mental disorder (they didn't specify just dysphoria). If it's no longer going to be a mental disorder starting in 2022 then it was considered a mental disorder previously and officially will be still considered a mental disorder until the changes take effect in 2022.

These are facts. You can reject them, but doesn't change anything for the rest of us.

Although, I don't think that using the fact it's a mental disorder to shame the trans community is good behavior. That's like shaming a child with autism because he's autistic.

MadMageKefka · Jun 18, 2019

Lacius said:
There are various types of ambiguous genitalia, including but not limited to aphallia, penile agenesis, testicular agenesis, clitoromegaly, chordee, gonadal dysgenesis, ovotestis, etc. I'll let you do your own research.

This is the first answer in god knows how many pages that actually contained the info I was asking for. I will look into it later.

Lacius said:
You might argue that these are mistakes and don't count, but that is an arbitrary distinction given the evolution of sex having been the result of a mistake in the first place. Whether or not they're arbitrarily classified as mistakes is also irrelevant to the fact that some are neither male nor female.

Okay, I haven't even replied yet and you're on the defensive. I obviously haven't looked into the conditions you named yet, but I can already say an evolutionary "mistake" stops being a mistake when it benefits the species and sticks around. You can't say sex itself was a mistake because its literally what keeps our species going. Unless I find that these "genders" are actually slowly becoming the majority and the future of the human race, then it would be safe to say they are mutations that do not benefit our species. This goes back to my original point that labeling rare-case scenarios is arbitrary, and would only be in place to make the select few that fall into the category feel more included.

Again, though, this is just in response to your preemptive defense. I have not looked into any of the conditions you named yet.

AmandaRose · Jun 18, 2019

cots said:
and that media is purposely misleading the public.

With this above statement I'm interested to know why the media would be missleading the public. What would the media have to gain by missleading them? Not having a go generally interested th hear what the media gain for using such a tactic.

cots · Jun 18, 2019

AmandaRose said:
@cots
Again where are children being encouraged to be transgender that simply does not happen here in Scotland. You are making out like I do encourage this behaviour so where in any of my posts have I said I encourage them. I have never said that in fact I have said in posts here I fully support the minimum age policy most countries have to transition.

You are trying to argue a point I actually agree with you on.

I wasn't aware that I was arguing the point with you. I was stating how I felt about the issue while addressing your other comments. Sorry that I wasn't more precise. I'm glad you agree with me. For example, celebrities that have 4 year old children who teach them about transsexual people and then encourage someone who can't think on their own to be trans so they can have their 5 minutes of fame - what the hell is up with that? It's the same thing as parents who wanted a boy, but got girl and force them to basically be their little boy. Parents shouldn't be choosing their child's identity. You see that using the issue for political purposes is actually not doing the trans community any sort of good.

About what I was addressing, the fact that choosing to live a risky lifestyle is going to lead to problems. What do you think the solution is? Trans people aren't widely accepted in the USA. Smoking weed isn't accepted in China and can result in you be put to death. Possibly, if you don't want to get executed maybe avoid the behavior that is going to get you executed? Fire is hot, it burns you. If you don't want to get burnt don't play with fire otherwise no one is going to feel sorry for you or sympathize with you because you got burnt knowing damn well that is the result of playing with fire.

So, they aren't accepted in the USA, why is that? What type of behaviors do they participate in that aren't accepted? I see the name calling as a big issue. Using words to insult others to try to control what they say or think and otherwise try to censor them isn't any sort of solution. If you want acceptance then maybe you need to participate in it yourself.

So, what do you think could help people in the USA accept trans people more to avoid real transphobic behavior? If your country has a 1% rate of suicide, than what works over there that could possibly work over here?

Lacius said:
We still haven't established how we are going to discuss the differences between physiology and identity.

Not all individuals who are intersex have ambiguous genitalia, and they're still not necessarily male or female. So, although it's somewhat on-topic, I don't find the topic of intersex genitalia particularly interesting as it pertains to the topic of sex not necessarily being binary.

There are various types of ambiguous genitalia, including but not limited to aphallia, penile agenesis, testicular agenesis, clitoromegaly, chordee, gonadal dysgenesis, ovotestis, etc. I'll let you do your own research.

If there is no room for interpretation, as you said, then arguably all of the above examples could be neither male nor female, since categorizing them would require some interpretation.

You might argue that some of these are not fertile and don't count, but that's irrelevant to whether or not they're something other than male or female.

You might argue that these are mistakes and don't count, but that is an arbitrary distinction given the evolution of sex having been the result of a mistake in the first place. Whether or not they're arbitrarily classified as mistakes is also irrelevant to the fact that some are neither male nor female.

Your sex isn't on a spectrum. You can label every single type of mutation however you like, doesn't change the fact there is either female or male. Your gender identity can be whatever you want it to be, but it doesn't change the fact that there are only two sexes. It seems @MadMageKefka isn't realizing that gender, from what had been normally taught, is now not the same as your biological sex assigned at birth and you're also not realizing that there's only two types sexes.

I think it's more fitting to include "identity" with "gender" aka "your gender identity", because that's just what you think your are - not what you actually are.

Lacius · Jun 18, 2019

cots said:
Except, the main author of the section covering trans people in the DSM-V claims that being trans (not just dysphoria) is a mental disorder and that media is purposely misleading the public. I'm going to take his word over CNN.com.

The DSM-V does not categorize being transgender as a mental disorder. When you talk about the "main author saying it's a mental disorder" or "CNN.com," I don't know what you're talking about.

cots said:
Or the fact that the WHO stated that being trans is no longer a mental disorder (they didn't specify just dysphoria). If it's no longer going to be a mental disorder starting in 2022 then it was considered a mental disorder previously and officially will be still considered a mental disorder until the changes take effect in 2022.

To be clear (mostly for others who are reading our conversation), what you're talking about is the 11th edition of the International Classification of Diseases, released by the WHO and similar to the DSM revisions. When we talk about the ICD-11 not going into effect until 2022, we are talking about giving countries time to adopt and adapt for logistic reasons. The WHO does not consider being trans to be a mental disorder. If you want to acknowledge the above technicality, that doesn't particularly bother me. You're right to acknowledge it not going into effect until 2022. On the other hand, if you want to argue that we should look at the ICD-10 (1990) for the WHO's position on trans people because of the above technicality, that's not an honest representation of the WHO's position on trans people. The new position has been voted on and adopted, and the WHO does not presently consider being trans to be a mental disorder.

MadMageKefka said:
This is the first answer in god knows how many pages that actually contained the info I was asking for. I will look into it later.

Perhaps you shouldn't have jumped down the semantic argument rabbit hole then.

MadMageKefka said:
Okay, I haven't even replied yet and you're on the defensive.

It's good practice to acknowledge and counter a person's counter arguments before one has made them.

MadMageKefka said:
I obviously haven't looked into the conditions you named yet, but I can already say an evolutionary "mistake" stops being a mistake when it benefits the species and sticks around.

The difference between "beneficial mistake" and "non-mistake" is arbitrary.

MadMageKefka said:
You can't say sex itself was a mistake

It's the result of random mutations, so yes, it objectively was a mistake.

MadMageKefka said:
because [sex is] literally what keeps our species going.

Well yes, because our species is defined in part by our sexual reproduction. If sex had never evolved and we were an asexually reproducing species, then no, sex wouldn't keep our species going. In fact, if we use a narrow definition of species, the evolution of sex might have actually destroyed our asexual ancestors as they were outcompeted.

MadMageKefka said:
Unless I find that these "genders"

You mean sexes.

MadMageKefka said:
Unless I find that these "genders" are actually slowly becoming the majority and the future of the human race, then it would be safe to say they are mutations that do not benefit our species.

That's irrelevant to whether or not they exist.

MadMageKefka said:
This goes back to my original point that labeling rare-case scenarios is arbitrary, and would only be in place to make the select few that fall into the category feel more included.

The rarity of intersex is irrelevant to whether or not they exist. It only takes one intersex individual for sex not to be necessarily binary.
The odds of having intersex genitalia is somewhere around 1 in 2,000, which isn't super rare.
The odds of being intersex without ambiguous genitalia is even more common.

cots said:
Your sex isn't on a spectrum. You can label every single type of mutation however you like, doesn't change the fact there is either female or male.

This statement is only true if you ignore intersex individuals. They fall on a spectrum, and they demonstrate that sex is not necessarily binary. Depending on how broadly or narrowly we define the male and female sexes, a lot more people fall on the sex spectrum than just intersex people.

cots said:
Your gender identity can be whatever you want it to be

I'd argue there's little choice involved with gender identity, but I think we are mostly on the same page here.

cots said:
It seems @MadMageKefka isn't realizing that gender, from what had been normally taught, is now not the same as your biological sex assigned at birth

We are on the same page here.

cots said:
I think it's more fitting to include "identity" with "gender" aka "your gender identity", because that's just what you think your are - not what you actually are.

We are on the same page here if by "what you actually are," you mean a person's sex.

cots · Jun 18, 2019

AmandaRose said:
With this above statement I'm interested to know why the media would be missleading the public. What would the media have to gain by missleading them? Not having a go generally interested th hear what the media gain for using such a tactic.

"Except, the main author of the section covering trans people in the DSM-V claims that being trans (not just dysphoria) is a mental disorder and that media is purposely misleading the public. I'm going to take his word over CNN.com."

That's what I posted.

Well, both sides are after clicks (money) and votes (power). I highly doubt most of them actually care about the wellbeing of LGBTQ people. Some may, but with my experience most don't. The Left, specifically, who are the ones trying to take something that doesn't effect the majority of society and make it an issue are purposely trying to twist the DSM-V to fit their narrative (for clicks, money, votes and power). Hey, that's fine if they were actually using the real facts, but by twisting it they are being dishonest and lying to the public. I don't want to follow a group of people that base their values on lies. Well, the right, who the majority also don't give a shit about LGBTQ people, are then using the opportunity for clicks, money, votes and power, but at least they, in this instance, aren't lying when they state that transgenderism is a mental disorder. Both sides are benefiting from the issue and both sides are definitely showing hate (the left promoting manipulative, dishonest and controlling behavior) and the people on the right who are attacking the trans people. Generally speaking, as there are also a lot of normal democrats that don't agree with the lifestyle and being LGBTQ isn't inclusive just the left.

AmandaRose · Jun 18, 2019

cots said:
So, what do you think could help people in the USA accept trans people more to avoid real transphobic behavior? If your country has a 1% rate of suicide, than what works over there that could possibly work over here?
.

So that is actually a very good question I can't really answer. Scotland has always been a country accepting of all. We also have a church that supports the trans community unlike America. I guess perhaps it's also because we don't have politicians on either side whipping up a transgender related storm for votes.its kinda wierd that the only thing Scottish people truly care about is what soccer team you support which is either Rangers or Celtic.And and if you are ever asked by a Scottish person what soccer team you support be prepared as the wrong answer can lead to some very heated arguments.

For the record Rangers is the only acceptable answer lol.

cots · Jun 18, 2019

Lacius said:
The DSM-V does not categorize being transgender as a mental disorder. When you talk about the "main author saying it's a mental disorder" or "CNN.com," I don't know what you're talking about.

It seems you haven't been paying attention to the links I've provided about the author and the reclassification. I suggest you reread the thread.

To be clear (mostly for others who are reading our conversation), what you're talking about is the 11th edition of the International Classification of Diseases, released by the WHO and similar to the DSM revisions. When we talk about the ICD-11 not going into effect until 2022, we are talking about giving countries time to adopt and adapt for logistic reasons. The WHO does not consider being trans to be a mental disorder. If you want to acknowledge the above technicality, that doesn't particularly bother me. You're right to acknowledge it not going into effect until 2022. On the other hand, if you want to argue that we should look at the ICD-10 (1990) for the WHO's position on trans people because of the above technicality, that's not an honest representation of the WHO's position on trans people. The new position has been voted on and adopted, and the WHO does not presently consider being trans to be a mental disorder.

I'm not familiar with the WHO, but the article on CNN stated that transgerism isn't a mental disorder because the diagnosis has changed in the most recent WHO to now no longer being a mental disorder. If it's now not considered a mental disorder, because it previously was considered to be one then, well, it used to be considered one. Specifically, transgenderism used to fall under the "Mental and Behavioural Disorders" of the ICD-10 (1990) and no longer is going to be.

So according to the new ICD-11, transgederism is not a mental disorder.

According the the current DSM-V, it still is, but to a lessor degree.

Although, gender dysphoria describes a condition in which someone is intensely uncomfortable with their biological gender and strongly identifies with, and wants to be, the opposite gender. Some of these people may live as their desired gender, and may even seek gender reassignment surgery that can allow them to trade, for example, a penis for a clitoris and a scrotum for a vagina. So that applies to most transgender people.

Maybe I start using that term, to replace the old term, to be more politically correct, thus, that wouldn't change the fact that I'm simply calling it by another name.

So, now, to be current in times, I'll state that "gender dysphoria is a mental disorder" and that "it's simply been renamed from transgenderism to make people feel better".

Sorta like, how you don't call mentally handicap people "retarded" anymore because of the stigma. Doesn't change the fact that they're retarded.

So, you're too caught up in technicalities. Anyone who states that transgerism is a mental disorder just needs to be explained that they are correct, but they are using outdated terminology.

"Look mah, I have a red car".

- "But, it's blue"

"Not anymore, we call blue red now"

- "I suppose if it'll make you feel better I'll call your blue car red."

"Thanks mah!"

Lacius · Jun 18, 2019

cots said:
It seems you haven't been paying attention to the links I've provided about the author and the reclassification. I suggest you reread the thread.

If I didn't directly respond to something in this thread, or if I wasn't tagged, I probably didn't read it.

cots said:
I'm not familiar with the WHO, but the article on CNN stated that transgerism isn't a mental disorder because the diagnosis has changed in the most recent WHO to now no longer being a mental disorder. If it's now not considered a mental disorder, because it previously was considered to be one then, well, it used to be considered one. Specifically, transgenderism used to fall under the "Mental and Behavioural Disorders" of the ICD-10 (1990) and no longer is going to be.

That is correct. It was once considered to be a mental disorder, but as our understanding improved, it was reclassified. That's true of lots of things. See below for more details.

cots said:
So according to the new ICD-11, transgederism is not a mental disorder.

According the the current DSM-V, it still is, but to a lessor degree.

No, neither the ICD-11 nor the DSM-V consider being transgender to be a mental disorder. More on this below.

cots said:
Although, gender dysphoria describes a condition in which someone is intensely uncomfortable with their biological gender and strongly identifies with, and wants to be, the opposite gender. Some of these people may live as their desired gender, and may even seek gender reassignment surgery that can allow them to trade, for example, a penis for a clitoris and a scrotum for a vagina. So that applies to most transgender people.

Gender dysphoria is distress related to one's assigned gender or sex, and although it is in the DSM-V, it is not classified specifically as a mental disorder. Gender dysphoria also should not to be confused with being transgender. Not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria. You can think of gender dysphoria as being the distress that might be caused by being transgender, although a lot of what causes gender dysphoria is the result of society's treatment of people who are trans.

Something gets classified as a mental disorder if, among other requirements, it negatively affects one's life. Homosexuality used to be classified as a mental disorder, but since it generally doesn't negatively affect one's life, aside from how society treats gay people, it cannot be considered a mental disorder. Being transgender generally does not negatively affect one's life, aside from how society treats a trans person, so it cannot be considered a mental disorder either.

cots said:
So that applies to most transgender people.

Gender dysphoria probably doesn't apply to most transgender people, but there isn't a lot of data. What we do know is approximately 40% of trans people don't transition, and many of those who do transition don't experience gender dysphoria.

cots said:
So, now, to be current in times, I'll state that "gender dysphoria is a mental disorder" and that "it's simply been renamed from transgenderism to make people feel better".

Neither statement is accurate. See above.

cots said:
Sorta like, how you don't call mentally handicap people "retarded" anymore because of the stigma. Doesn't change the fact that they're retarded.

Sure, but that's a matter of political correctness, not what is and isn't factually true.

cots said:
So, you're too caught up in technicalities. Anyone who states that transgerism is a mental disorder just needs to be explained that they are correct, but they are using outdated terminology.

No, being transgender is not a mental disorder according to the WHO, APA, DSM, etc. See above.

MadMageKefka · Jun 19, 2019

Lacius said:
It's the result of random mutations, so yes, it objectively was a mistake.

You do realize what "objectively" means, right? You keep using words like this and "arguably," or "interpretation." You're basically telling me "no, you're wrong because someone might see it differently which is 100% accurate all the time." Just, what even?

Lacius · Jun 19, 2019

MadMageKefka said:
You do realize what "objectively" means, right? You keep using words like this and "arguably," or "interpretation." You're basically telling me "no, you're wrong because someone might see it differently which is 100% accurate all the time." Just, what even?

Inheritable mutations are, by definition, mistakes that occur during the DNA-replication process.
Objectively means not a matter of opinion (as opposed to subjectively).
Mutations are objectively mistakes.

Edit: I don't use the word lightly. If something is arguable or open to interpretation, I say so. If something is objectively true, I say so.

MadMageKefka · Jun 19, 2019

Lacius said:
Inheritable mutations are, by definition, mistakes that occur during the DNA-replication process.

Objectively means not a matter of opinion (as opposed to subjectively).

Mutations are objectively mistakes.

Edit: I don't use the word lightly. If something is arguable or open to interpretation, I say so. If something is objectively true, I say so.

Yeaaa, that one's on me. Oops. Still, sorry, but its not objective here. You can't possibly tell me it was a mistake that our species has a way to reproduce.... Kinda important if we intend to survive past a single generation. Literally every species we know of has a way to reproduce. There is no way you can tell me every creature on our planet just accidentally decided to reproduce, just no.

cots · Jun 19, 2019

Lacius said:
That is correct. It was once considered to be a mental disorder, but as our understanding improved, it was reclassified. That's true of lots of things. See below for more details.

Sure, but that's a matter of political correctness, not what is and isn't factually true.

No, being transgender is not a mental disorder according to the WHO, APA, DSM, etc. See above.

Transgenerism used to be considered a mental disorder and was used as an umbrella term, got relabled, reclassified, broken down and now it's generally called, but not limited to gender dysphoria, which the principal author of the section of the DSM-V covering the issue clearly has stated was done for political purposes, therefor, by your own admission, isn't factually true.

Whatever the reasoning, that's what happened (and remind you it happened recently) and despite objections from the principal author, is now agreed upon by the psychiatric community.

So, to be politically correct and to follow the authority of the psychiatric community it would be appropriate to state that transgender people suffering from various types dsyphoria are mentally ill.

So stating that transgender people are mentally ill is no longer correct.

I'll do this, knowing that they used to be considered mentally ill and that like the author I mentioned, who I agree with, should still be considered as such. Thus I will address them how they wish, to avoid conflict, but in my heart and mind know that they are ill as I don't have to agree with the psychiatric community, but it would be the polite thing to do. It however won't for me personally, drop any of the related knowledge I've learned from dealing with trans people. It's not a reset button.

You can change the name of the Nintendo Virtual Boy to the Nintendo Switch and call it a radio instead of a video gaming console, but in my mind, it'll always be the Virtual Boy the video gaming console. That's something that you or the psychiatric community will have to realize that you can't fix, because there is nothing to edit, reclassify, or change because nothing is broken. It'll always be the Virtual Boy for me - and that's all that matters.

Lacius · Jun 19, 2019

MadMageKefka said:
Yeaaa, that one's on me. Oops. Still, sorry, but its not objective here.

The mutations that led to the sexes are, objectively, just as much mistakes as any other mutation.

MadMageKefka said:
You can't possibly tell me it was a mistake that our species has a way to reproduce

I'll do you one better. Our entire species is defined by the culmination of countless genetic mistakes. Our eyes, nose, mouth, brain, sexes, etc. are all the result of different genetic mistakes.

MadMageKefka said:
Kinda important if we intend to survive past a single generation. Literally every species we know of has a way to reproduce. There is no way you can tell me every creature on our planet just accidentally decided to reproduce, just no.

There are forms of reproduction that don't involve sex. They're called asexual reproduction.
All forms of reproduction we observe today, sexual or not, are the result of genetic mistakes.

MadMageKefka · Jun 19, 2019

Lacius said:
The mutations that led to the sexes are, objectively, just as much mistakes as any other mutation.

I'll do you one better. Our entire species is defined by the culmination of countless genetic mistakes. Our eyes, nose, mouth, brain, sexes, etc. are all the result of different genetic mistakes.

There are forms of reproduction that don't involve sex. They're called asexual reproduction.

All forms of reproduction we observe today, sexual or not, are the result of genetic mistakes.

Wow, repeating yourself with slightly different words really opened my eyes, thanks... And yes, I am aware of asexual reproduction. "A way" would include that.

Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...

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