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Can We Stop With The Name Calling Already ...
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Best to get along with everyone, but, I will say I strongly disagree with giving children hormones, that should be something you can only personally decide as an adult.
Compelling argument, but I'm going to continue to disagree. You still haven't shown me what I asked for.
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I see people say that alot so I'm curious what countries are allowing children to be given hormones? Because in all of Europe excluding Great Britain and Ireland and I think Iceland the minimum age is 18. And for Britain/Ireland/and Iceland it's generally 18 but is some case they can be given to 16 year olds.
Also very few people in the trans community would be happy for anyone younger to get them either.
Last edited by AmandaRose,
D
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This is from the comments:
"My grandma had all boys but wanted a girl so she used to dress my dad as a girl sometimes as a young child. Fast forward a few dacades, and after living as a man and marrying my mom and having me, he surgically chopped his dick and balls off and now lives as a woman. He says cutting his balls off was one of the best things he ever did in life. However, I remember a few years ago my dad telling me that he was interested in getting into teaching or being a tutor, and presenting as male (this was after he had already turned himself into a woman). I think my dad is just really fucking confused. I feel bad for him. You can't change gender. I think it's delusional to try. I'm sorry. I can't help how I feel about it. I tried not to. I really did. I feel guilty about even having these thoughts and feelings at all. I haven't told my dad any of this. I can't bare the thought of hurting him like that. I love and accept my dad, but I simultaneously wish that he wouldn't have run away from his masculinity, and surgically mutilated his body. When I show pictures of what he used to look like to people, the overwhelming response is that he used to be a good looking guy, but that he ruined it. It's sad. I just keep quiet about how I feel. He is also married to another "MTF". I just have so many mixed feelings and it drives me insane. I think my dad is just very confused. He seems to love his "female" life though, even though it played a huge part in my parents' divorce and lead to a couple siblings completely disowning him. He must feel very strongly about it apparently though. I don't understand, and never will. At least he's happy. I guess that's all that matters. *shrug*"
It's sad to me how all this gets pushed upon us by the media and people get permanently alter their lives in ways that cannot be reversed.
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Do you have any examples whatsoever, or is this just more conspiracy theory nonsense about subliminal messaging? Because I see an insane amount of commercials pushing prescription drugs on people, but not a single one pushing homosexuality or transsexuality. These are some of the most persecuted groups in America, so nobody is gay or trans for the 'glory' of it. That much I can assure you.
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That's not proof. To steal a quote from John Oliver, in the 70s people thought Liberace just hadn't found the right woman yet. The US remained willfully ignorant about the LGBTQ community as long as we possibly could. That doesn't mean it didn't exist.
If you're too stubborn to acknowledge that sex refers to one's anatomy and gender refers to one's roles and identity, then I see no reason to continue this conversation. We have to agree on terms to be able to have effective discourse.
--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
There's a lot to unpack here.
- I'm not explicitly talking about hermaphrodites.
- The rarity of intersex individuals (not that rare, actually) is irrelevant to my point about sex not necessarily being binary.
- Some people are not born the male sex nor the female sex.
- Having a penis in-between one's legs, for example, doesn't invalidate one's female identity. There's a difference between sex and gender, and one's gender identity doesn't necessarily match one's sex.
- Being a trans female doesn't change that she was born with a penis, correct. There's a difference between sex and gender, and that's what makes her a trans female.
- It doesn't matter how rare an occurrence is. Intersex people exist. Trans people exist. A person doesn't cease to exist because that group hasn't met your quota for viability.
D
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You have to ask yourself why the gameboy nerds are so passionate about this particular subject. I don't think it's just a coincidence that gameboy nerds almost unanimously support that being transsexual is not a mental disorder. LGBT is not anything new and has been a part of society since the beginning of humanity, the only thing that changes from time to time is the way that people view it.
If it is so natural to support LGBT, why are regions like Africa and the Middle East so vehemently against it?
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I've encountered just as many gamers who are vehemently against any mention of it, so this seems to be anecdotal at best.
When did I say it was 'natural' to support LGBTQ? It's actually the opposite, people tend to hate what they don't understand, and that's why trans individuals are still constantly victimized, even in the US.
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Nature doesn't play a role here at all. People choose whether to be bigoted or not, and whether to remain ignorant or not.
D
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I am not a bigot though. Here is the definition of bigot.
big·ot
/ˈbiɡət/
Learn to pronounce
noun
- a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
In this particular case, I agree with your assertion that it isn't natural to support LGBTQ as stated in one of your previous post. I also respect that people have the freewill to believe that mutilating their anatomy is a valid response to a mental illness.
It is my belief that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, I don't think by definition it makes me a bigot to have a different opinion though. If someone wants to believe the earth is flat, I am not one to challenge their right in that belief. However, I do not think that disagreeing that the earth is flat makes me a bigot.
My point was that most trans people aren't hermaphrodites (a very rare mutation). Using that as an excuse to justify it when it doesn't apply to you doesn't win any brownie points. So it doesn't apply to most people and I'm addressing what applies to most people so it's irrelevant. You're focusing on the rare mutation like it applies to everyday situations. Your tactics don't fly with me. Most trans people simply chose to identify as something that they feel like they are, not something they actually are. Someone mentioned that my example of trans person who believes that you're transphobic if you don't have sex with him/her has been said to be invalided and shouldn't be used an example because it's a rare case. You can't have it both ways people.
Anyway, that also doesn't change the fact that there are two sexes. I'm not arguing that people identify as a female when they were born a male. I can go around thinking all day long that I'm a parakeet and even cut my arms off and replace them with synthetic wings, doesn't change the fact that I'm a human that for whatever reason thinks I'm a bird. So their gender identity is female and their original birth sex was male - they are still a male. Nothing changed. If you cut off your penis and identify as a women then you're a male that cut off his penis that thinks he's a female. I understand that sex and gender used to be the considered the same thing and granted it took me a while to see why they are now different when I was taught they were the same, but your gender is simply what you identify as and it doesn't change your sex, which, I remind you, in most cases is either female or male and in rare cases is a mixture between the two, which is not a third, forth or whatever you want to call each variation - it's a mutation, not a different sex.
Sorta makes me wonder why you have to address a trans person using either "he" or "she" not "it" or any other word. Surely, if there are more than 2 sexes you'd be in the right to address them as a "it".
So you've got your assigned sex at birth and then what you identify as. I suppose it would be polite to address the person as what they identify as, if that's what they want you to address them as, but calling a rooster a horse doesn't change the fact that the rooster isn't a horse and the rooster would also be in the wrong to get up in your face and give you shit because you called him a rooster when you had no idea he wanted to be called a horse.
I wonder if I try to sell my old stapler and advertise it as a Nintendo Switch, ship it to the buyer and then claim that I identify it differently if I could avoid a charge back to my credit card when I refuse to refund the money while claiming that by doing so would hurt my feelings therefor the buyer is being phobic and I'm the victim.
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I didn't say you were, I used 'people' very much in the general sense. 'Bigoted' in that sentence can also be replaced by any number of other adjectives with similar meaning, such as transphobic, hateful, intolerant, etc. People make the choice to act in that manner, it's not a matter of genetics.
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Ah so now someone has popped up and is going on about genital mutilation let's address that shall we.
The phrase genital mutilation is a transphobic sentiment filled with irony. Really dark irony.
The same people who accuse trans people who decide to undergo surgery of “genital mutilation” often circumcise their sons. Or are circumcised. And how many of these people chose to get the procedure? Did they have to go through countless therapists and consultations to get circumcised? Did they have to have multiple professionals give them a letter of permission to be circumcised? No. And neither did the parents who did it to them.
Circumcision literally is, by all accounts, actual genital mutilation that is no less reprehensible than female infant circumcision sometimes practiced in other nations. And almost all of the amab people who are circumcised didn’t have a say in the procedure (unlike transitioning).
But what about men who are happy with their circumcisions, the men who prefer life without foreskin? Almost every single “I’m grateful” story I’ve heard from circumcised men rationalizes it with either a) “But women prefer this!” or b) “But now I don’t have to clean it
Oh, right, okay. We can cut skin off of a baby’s penis because it’ll be easier for him to get laid in the future (because isn’t that the first thing we all think of when we see are newborns? “Aww, welcome to the world. Now how can I make you more fuckable?”), or because he’s too damn lazy to practice hygiene (I mean, we all have to wipe our asses after we shit…we don’t try to remove them because wiping is too much of a hassle.) And this totally makes sense, apparently, but undergoing transitional surgery because it is literally actively painful and excruciating to have the wrong body is “mutilation.”
And for that matter, who decides where the line at “mutilation” is drawn? What about tattoos, piercings, or haircuts? Or is it only mutilation when it offends you?
Whether or not something is considered mutilation should be determined logically, not with some knee-jerk reaction. So logically, we should ask:
But using these guidelines, we can see that any trans person who undergoes surgery is not being mutilated because they consent to the operation, it isn’t any more risky than other surgeries, and generally, it saves a person from a life of debilitating discomfort
HOWEVER, the topic of mutilation gets even more…interesting…when we take intersex infants into account. Intersex newborns go through forced sex-reassignment surgeries regularly. But where is all the protest for this? Are we again going to tolerate legitimate genital mutilation (even it it is sex-reassignment) on the basis of future potential for sexual attraction? The mutilation of intersex children is often justified with “but no one will want to sleep with a h************e!” So? Shouldn’t we instead be teaching society to value these people, instead of telling everyone it makes sense to be disgusted by intersex people? But even so, one of the most common (if not the most) reasoning behind forced surgeries for intersex newborns is so that mothers are able to bond better. Imagine that. Imagine having to go through sex-reassignment surgery when you’re an infant just for your mother to properly love you.*
Another statement that ties in with the above is the following.
You should love your body the way God made it!
Mhm. I wonder how many Christian women love the hair god put on their armpits. I wonder how many Christian men love the hair god put on women’s vaginas, for that matter. How many men love their body enough to not take protein shakes? How many women are happy with their natural eyebrows? How many people love the natural scent god endowed us with during puberty?
Any time you shave, get a hair cut, brush your teeth, paint your nails, put on makeup, get a spray tan, clip your nails, take “male enhancement pills,” or put on perfume/cologne, you are changing something natural about your body.
Do women who get spray tans hate themselves? It’s not likely. Do men who shave their beards lack self-respect? Probably not. Do either of these categories of people inherently hate god and deserve to burn in hell for those actions? Let me guess, most people would probably say “no.” And they’re right. And trans people who chose to physically transition are no different.
We get into a bit of a different tone when it comes to matters of plastic surgery. Because while trans people are often under scrutiny for altering their bodies via surgery, many cis people are as well (though to a lesser extent). Society still clings to an arbitrary notion of “realness” and women with butt implants or lip injections are often deemed “fake.” Still, this isn’t exactly the same line of criticism against trans people who undergo surgery (who are considered “fake” in another sense), because these people are more frequently seen as perverted people who do so for sexual gratification or due to dangerous delusions. If anything, cis people (namely women) who undergo plastic surgery are pitied as having been pressured into their choices by a society with rigid beauty standards.
But needless to say, there are many cis people who get plastic surgery of their own volition who pay no regard to beauty standards. This is especially, but not only, true of people like María José Cristerna and others with an alternative aesthetic.
Things like nose jobs or liposuction might still carry a bit of stigma, but overall: These things make people happier and typically, (also hypocritically) society enjoys seeing the results. It’s essentially a win-win, or would be, if we weren’t so attached to this fake sense of authenticity. People who get nose jobs or lipo are no less themselves than they were before.
Let me repeat that: Those who alter their physical appearance by any means (be it cosmetics, surgery, push-up bras, dieting, bodybuilding, etc) are still themselves. And any implication otherwise relies on this toxic and shallow assertion that the reality of someone is inherently tied to their appearance.
That’s right. Those who get breast implants or whatever aren’t the “fake” or shallow ones, it’s those who think your “real self” is ultimately just however someone looks. So next time you’re feeling sanctimonious because you still have your “real” eyebrows and a “real” butt, maybe learn that no one gives a shit about how “real” you body is….your “real” self should lie in your personality, and by being a decent human being. Afterall, who would you rather be friends with: A “real” person who is deceptive, judgemental and manipulating, or someone who had work done but is sweet and cares about you?
So to conclude, unless you’re an intactivist, intersex-right’s activist who looks like this
You’re being hypocritical any time you judge a trans person for altering their body (in a way that literally doesn’t affect you any way), because you damn well aren’t in a natural pristine condition either.
The phrase genital mutilation is a transphobic sentiment filled with irony. Really dark irony.
The same people who accuse trans people who decide to undergo surgery of “genital mutilation” often circumcise their sons. Or are circumcised. And how many of these people chose to get the procedure? Did they have to go through countless therapists and consultations to get circumcised? Did they have to have multiple professionals give them a letter of permission to be circumcised? No. And neither did the parents who did it to them.
Circumcision literally is, by all accounts, actual genital mutilation that is no less reprehensible than female infant circumcision sometimes practiced in other nations. And almost all of the amab people who are circumcised didn’t have a say in the procedure (unlike transitioning).
But what about men who are happy with their circumcisions, the men who prefer life without foreskin? Almost every single “I’m grateful” story I’ve heard from circumcised men rationalizes it with either a) “But women prefer this!” or b) “But now I don’t have to clean it
Oh, right, okay. We can cut skin off of a baby’s penis because it’ll be easier for him to get laid in the future (because isn’t that the first thing we all think of when we see are newborns? “Aww, welcome to the world. Now how can I make you more fuckable?”), or because he’s too damn lazy to practice hygiene (I mean, we all have to wipe our asses after we shit…we don’t try to remove them because wiping is too much of a hassle.) And this totally makes sense, apparently, but undergoing transitional surgery because it is literally actively painful and excruciating to have the wrong body is “mutilation.”
And for that matter, who decides where the line at “mutilation” is drawn? What about tattoos, piercings, or haircuts? Or is it only mutilation when it offends you?
Whether or not something is considered mutilation should be determined logically, not with some knee-jerk reaction. So logically, we should ask:
- Was it consensual?
- Was it life-threatening?
- How does the person feel about it?
But using these guidelines, we can see that any trans person who undergoes surgery is not being mutilated because they consent to the operation, it isn’t any more risky than other surgeries, and generally, it saves a person from a life of debilitating discomfort
HOWEVER, the topic of mutilation gets even more…interesting…when we take intersex infants into account. Intersex newborns go through forced sex-reassignment surgeries regularly. But where is all the protest for this? Are we again going to tolerate legitimate genital mutilation (even it it is sex-reassignment) on the basis of future potential for sexual attraction? The mutilation of intersex children is often justified with “but no one will want to sleep with a h************e!” So? Shouldn’t we instead be teaching society to value these people, instead of telling everyone it makes sense to be disgusted by intersex people? But even so, one of the most common (if not the most) reasoning behind forced surgeries for intersex newborns is so that mothers are able to bond better. Imagine that. Imagine having to go through sex-reassignment surgery when you’re an infant just for your mother to properly love you.*
Another statement that ties in with the above is the following.
You should love your body the way God made it!
Mhm. I wonder how many Christian women love the hair god put on their armpits. I wonder how many Christian men love the hair god put on women’s vaginas, for that matter. How many men love their body enough to not take protein shakes? How many women are happy with their natural eyebrows? How many people love the natural scent god endowed us with during puberty?
Any time you shave, get a hair cut, brush your teeth, paint your nails, put on makeup, get a spray tan, clip your nails, take “male enhancement pills,” or put on perfume/cologne, you are changing something natural about your body.
Do women who get spray tans hate themselves? It’s not likely. Do men who shave their beards lack self-respect? Probably not. Do either of these categories of people inherently hate god and deserve to burn in hell for those actions? Let me guess, most people would probably say “no.” And they’re right. And trans people who chose to physically transition are no different.
We get into a bit of a different tone when it comes to matters of plastic surgery. Because while trans people are often under scrutiny for altering their bodies via surgery, many cis people are as well (though to a lesser extent). Society still clings to an arbitrary notion of “realness” and women with butt implants or lip injections are often deemed “fake.” Still, this isn’t exactly the same line of criticism against trans people who undergo surgery (who are considered “fake” in another sense), because these people are more frequently seen as perverted people who do so for sexual gratification or due to dangerous delusions. If anything, cis people (namely women) who undergo plastic surgery are pitied as having been pressured into their choices by a society with rigid beauty standards.
But needless to say, there are many cis people who get plastic surgery of their own volition who pay no regard to beauty standards. This is especially, but not only, true of people like María José Cristerna and others with an alternative aesthetic.
Things like nose jobs or liposuction might still carry a bit of stigma, but overall: These things make people happier and typically, (also hypocritically) society enjoys seeing the results. It’s essentially a win-win, or would be, if we weren’t so attached to this fake sense of authenticity. People who get nose jobs or lipo are no less themselves than they were before.
Let me repeat that: Those who alter their physical appearance by any means (be it cosmetics, surgery, push-up bras, dieting, bodybuilding, etc) are still themselves. And any implication otherwise relies on this toxic and shallow assertion that the reality of someone is inherently tied to their appearance.
That’s right. Those who get breast implants or whatever aren’t the “fake” or shallow ones, it’s those who think your “real self” is ultimately just however someone looks. So next time you’re feeling sanctimonious because you still have your “real” eyebrows and a “real” butt, maybe learn that no one gives a shit about how “real” you body is….your “real” self should lie in your personality, and by being a decent human being. Afterall, who would you rather be friends with: A “real” person who is deceptive, judgemental and manipulating, or someone who had work done but is sweet and cares about you?
So to conclude, unless you’re an intactivist, intersex-right’s activist who looks like this
You’re being hypocritical any time you judge a trans person for altering their body (in a way that literally doesn’t affect you any way), because you damn well aren’t in a natural pristine condition either.
Last edited by AmandaRose,
Disclaimer: I didn't read your whole post, since what I read grossly mischaracterizes the purpose of my most recent posts.
The conversation I've been having lately is about the fact that sex is not necessarily binary, not about trans people. I'm not using intersex people to justify the trans experience. I'm using intersex people to explain that sex is not necessarily binary.
- I don't think I was responding to you, so I don't think you have any say regarding when my conversation is over.
- I'm not sure what you're wanting me to concede.
- Sex and gender, by definition, are not the same thing, regardless of one's beliefs about whether or not one's gender always comports with one's sex. This part is not controversial.
- If one wants to argue that there's no difference between the two words, then we can't have a conversation about sex and gender since we need to agree on terminology before having a spirited debate.
Last edited by Lacius,
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