Not every Pokémon will be available in Pokémon Sword and Shield

Spookimuchi · Jun 15, 2019

I keep seeing the tag #bringbacknationaldex and it makes me sad, even as someone who's never traded between games, seeing a good majority of the fan base out them on this is a pain to watch. There's just no excuse for this, especially if the models are being ripped from gen 6.

Glyptofane · Jun 15, 2019

osaka35 said:
I'm going to make myself look at it as if they're rebooting the series. Making sun/moon the last of the original series. Maybe my brain will accept it in time...

Reboot is how I took it as well. I feel for the hardcore Pokemon base, but also understand where Game Freak is coming from having accumulated a somewhat unsustainable number of Pokemon species. This is certainly going to cheese off a huge swath of lifelong fans, myself included somewhat, but it doesn't really affect the approach and limited commitment I personally usually put into a mainline Pokemon release, so still intent on buying it.

pedro702 · Jun 15, 2019

Spookimuchi said:
I keep seeing the tag #bringbacknationaldex and it makes me sad, even as someone who's never traded between games, seeing a good majority of the fan base out them on this is a pain to watch. There's just no excuse for this, especially if the models are being ripped from gen 6.

the saddest part is pokemon go will have more pokemons catchable than sword and shield lol.

NancyDS · Jun 15, 2019

Spookimuchi said:
I keep seeing the tag #bringbacknationaldex and it makes me sad, even as someone who's never traded between games, seeing a good majority of the fan base out them on this is a pain to watch. There's just no excuse for this, especially if the models are being ripped from gen 6.

No more 3D models and Gen 6/7 animations for these games!

Now, these games will have HD models of Pokémon GO and with better animations than in Gen 6/7!

pedro702 · Jun 15, 2019

NancyDS said:
No more 3D models and Gen 6/7 animations for these games!

Now, these games will have HD models of Pokémon GO and with better animations than in Gen 6/7!

the sad part is pokemon go has all pokemons from gen 1 to 4 so its almost 500 pokemon models all done hd with textures and yet they are only bringing back under 131 old gen pokemons so yes pokemon Go will have more avalable pokemons than the next mainline games lol.

fmhugo · Jun 15, 2019

Watch the trailer for Dragon Quest Monster Joker and understand why the next Pokémon does not have all the Pokémon available.

AlexMCS · Jun 16, 2019

pedro702 said:
gamefak pools are nothing to go by, x,Y sold better and if you compile all critical clains it has highers values than sun and moon, and also lol those pools saying 1 and 5 gen are worse than 6 or 7 is ridiculous.

Like I said, it's subjective, but I agree with the sentiment of the majority that Gen 1 is one of the worst: almost as linear as Gen 6, with far less pokémon variety, crappy combat (pretty much no Dragons, Psychic > all), trash legendaries (Zapdos is at least OK)... in summary, it thrives on nostalgia and good pokemon art design, but it's overhyped as Fck. But Gen 6 is even worse.

You may be entitled to your opinion, but as for me and most of the world, we have quite a different one.
Either way, what matters is that we have fun.

Back on the main topic, although their excuse is valid, the execution is severely lacking. With the time they had and the """"future-proof"""" models from the previous games, they should have all pokes in OR top notch graphics on what didn't get cut, game textures and draw range included.

We got NEITHER.

And that's what pisses me off about this announcement.

CTR640 · Jun 16, 2019

The biggest bullshit every in the existence of Pokémon. The ones who designed this idea suffers from brain damage.
Gotta catch some of 'em.

MalikTH · Jun 16, 2019

the_randomizer said:
I'm sure it will. If people can program all 850+ pokemon into a game, have them all use dynamax, have them all perfectly balanced and all within the constraints of Switch hardware, please, by all means let me know.

I'm sure they can. After all, the Pokemon franchise has literally gained billions of dollars in profits over the past decade or so. I can't possibly see how they wouldn't be able to do this.

Conan-kun · Jun 16, 2019

Yea, I would be pissed if I was big into pokemon still. I know it's upset my younger brother and sister, I guess we'll see what comes of all of this. :/

Lumian · Jun 16, 2019

...Meanwhile, I am COMPLETELY okay with this turn of events. Having played every single Pokemon since Pokemon Red/Blue/Green I have already played the absolute crap out of every pokemon in existence. If scaling down the number of monsters makes the combat more fair, balanced, and fun and gives them more time to add more interesting features I welcome the experiment.

Kigiru · Jun 16, 2019

Meh, i see from where people come being frustrated over it but personaly i'm not so moved. I mean, sure as fuck Nintendo failed with "futureproof" models and promises of next game after LGPE being directed to older fans but personaly i will not be affected by it at all because i'm not interested in online play... but even for online players, removing lesser valuable stuff like freaking Unown or Ledyba and some broken shit like most mythics is win situation lol. Ironicaly online play with smaller pool of Pokemon, but without all these broken staples can have way more variety.

SapphireExile · Jun 16, 2019

Clydefrosch said:
Is it really insane to expect them to put in the works for a franchise that generated over 90 billion dollars in it's time?

Not that this one will sell very well, it's going to lose a huge chunk of it's core buying base (nostalgia nerds and online players) This move will cost them so much more than paying a dozen animators for a few months ever could.

Yes. For one, not all animations are compatible with all engines. The animations from Sapphire and Ruby have 0 chance of working in X/Y for example. Different motion, different roots, different rigs, etc.

Next, animations are not easy. Especially blended animations, which are virtually required in 3D games. At best, I can crank out 15 unique, high quality animations a day. Nintendo animators can most likely do more, but not a minimum of 1800 animations (900 Pokemon, idle and attack animations) in any short period of time. You also need to account for file size. Do you really want to download a 100gb+ Pokemon game?

You also have the issues of model vs animation time. You can't really create high quality animations without the model being fleshed out first. So now the animation team is waiting for the modeling team, and the texture team is waiting on the modeling team as well.

It's not as simple as "It worked in the past, just reuse it", it's "I need to retarget and remaster every model and rig, then I need to test the animation in engine, then I need to see what can go wrong with the animation (What if I take damage on the same frame an attack animation fires?).

Even if they could reuse previous animations and models, you're back at file size. Almost immediately you would bypass the cartridge, and for digital download, you're fucked.

AlexMCS · Jun 16, 2019

SapphireExile said:
Yes. For one, not all animations are compatible with all engines. The animations from Sapphire and Ruby have 0 chance of working in X/Y for example. Different motion, different roots, different rigs, etc.

Next, animations are not easy. Especially blended animations, which are virtually required in 3D games. At best, I can crank out 15 unique, high quality animations a day. Nintendo animators can most likely do more, but not a minimum of 1800 animations (900 Pokemon, idle and attack animations) in any short period of time. You also need to account for file size. Do you really want to download a 100gb+ Pokemon game?

You also have the issues of model vs animation time. You can't really create high quality animations without the model being fleshed out first. So now the animation team is waiting for the modeling team, and the texture team is waiting on the modeling team as well.

It's not as simple as "It worked in the past, just reuse it", it's "I need to retarget and remaster every model and rig, then I need to test the animation in engine, then I need to see what can go wrong with the animation (What if I take damage on the same frame an attack animation fires?).

Even if they could reuse previous animations and models, you're back at file size. Almost immediately you would bypass the cartridge, and for digital download, you're fucked.

How much data does an animation take? Aren't the models themselves the largest part of the data chunk?
Really curious here, since my only reference is Guilty Gear Xrd, that has an entire 3h animated movie inside, other than the in-game animations, and it isn't even 12GB large on my HDD. I really doubt this game would even exceed 40GB, not to mention 100GB.

Also, you're assuming it's a completely different new engine, but I don't really think it is.

SapphireExile · Jun 16, 2019

AlexMCS said:
How much data does an animation take? Aren't the models themselves the largest part of the data chunk?
Really curious here, since my only reference is Guilty Gear Xrd, that has an entire 3h animated movie inside, other than the in-game animations, and it isn't even 12GB large on my HDD. I really doubt this game would even exceed 40GB, not to mention 100GB.

Also, you're assuming it's a completely different new engine, but I don't really think it is.

Each animation by itself is relatively small. I average 7mb a piece on mine.

I haven't personally played guilty gear, but if it's a movie, meaning prerendere, that can take as little as 300mb. Videos are much easier to compress and store.

For asset file size, it really depends. I have singular textures that are 85mb in size alone, but I also have textures that are mere kilobytes.

My personal models, optimized, come in around 4mb a piece, with the more complex things at 15mb. Mind you this is desktop game development, so switch/ mobile will most likely be smaller.

I can't link the source, as I don't remember it, but last I seen was that S&S come in around 22gb.

Audio takes up a large chunk by itself, then usually textures. Models come after, then the actual code base.

So if my source was correct, and that 22gb is just the base game + S&S Pokemon alone, then to maintain quality, the addition of other Pokemon would raise that linearly.

My source could easily be wrong, so take that with a grain of salt.

Once the games are actually out, I'll extract the data from it, and see exactly the size of everything, and let you know just how large the game would be if every Pokemon was included.

Clydefrosch · Jun 16, 2019

SapphireExile said:
Yes. For one, not all animations are compatible with all engines. The animations from Sapphire and Ruby have 0 chance of working in X/Y for example. Different motion, different roots, different rigs, etc.

Next, animations are not easy. Especially blended animations, which are virtually required in 3D games. At best, I can crank out 15 unique, high quality animations a day. Nintendo animators can most likely do more, but not a minimum of 1800 animations (900 Pokemon, idle and attack animations) in any short period of time. You also need to account for file size. Do you really want to download a 100gb+ Pokemon game?

You also have the issues of model vs animation time. You can't really create high quality animations without the model being fleshed out first. So now the animation team is waiting for the modeling team, and the texture team is waiting on the modeling team as well.

It's not as simple as "It worked in the past, just reuse it", it's "I need to retarget and remaster every model and rig, then I need to test the animation in engine, then I need to see what can go wrong with the animation (What if I take damage on the same frame an attack animation fires?).

Even if they could reuse previous animations and models, you're back at file size. Almost immediately you would bypass the cartridge, and for digital download, you're fucked.

but the models were literally the same. except for i think a cat pokemon that had it's ears fixed between two games and a couple of slight color corrections.
the engines also didn't change significantly, they kept on tweeking the one from x/y and I'd be very much surprised if sword or shield was any different.

100gb? are you're thinking of exported rendered movies or what?
like, you get they're not playing movies for those animations, right? what's saved to the cart is instructions on how to move the rigs of the models. infinitely smaller than an animation like a gif or whatever.

models and textures are already done. from what I remember, on the 3ds, they averaged ~300-400kb per pokemon. even if they upressed the textures and quadrupled the size and shinies and gender differences where completely separate models, we'd still only talk like 5-6gb for that data.

And that's a huge if. The models have been done for years. they were made from x/y on specifically to be used and reused later on a system with much better graphical capabilities. that's why we had 8!! games where the battles kept dropping frames and where doubles looked really terrible. granted, textures were likely worked on a bit for the new games, but from what we've seen, they mostly added non-dynamic shading and some bright highlighting.

Darth Meteos · Jun 16, 2019

SapphireExile said:
*snip*

I defer to ya boi Wonder Bread on Reddit, who explains the reason why this isn't the case.

Kigiru · Jun 16, 2019

@SapphireExile - I think that you don't get it so lets make it short.
- There's a huge difference between Sprites and models so please don't mix them up like that.
- The models in 3DS games were ABSOLUTELY PURPOSEFULY made in way too high quality for that hardware, mostly to make them "futureproof" i.e. useable in later games on more powerful hardware.
- Most 3D graphic enviroments these days are pretty similiar and porting models from one to another is just matter of converting, copy-pasting and checking if everything runs fine, which makes it realy trivial job. Also Gamefreak has access to Pokemon data in raw, uncompressed state so it's not that they need to write it all again - They just need to take into consideration new tables for moves, abilities and shits and upgrade all with new stuff.
- They said outright that they were working on this project from when USUM was deep into advertisement campaign, which means that they had A FREAKING LOT of time to do it all. And with TWO full group of developers and multiple workers out of these group AND pretty much billions of dollars they have A FREAKING LOT of manpower and resources. And it's not that lack of all Pokemon is their biggest problem - Demo presented on E3 was in horrible state with multiple cases of lack of polish and poorly made graphics... and no "But it was demo!" is not an answer because this is the state that they wanted to show us the game, it's what they consider worth of showing us these times which is plain wrong.

Basicaly i'm questioning who actualy is working on Sw/Sh because neither the original team led by Masuda nor SM/USUM team led by Ohmori seems to be that incompetent. It's like they grabbed random programists from the street lel.

gundamu · Jun 17, 2019

Lumian said:
...Meanwhile, I am COMPLETELY okay with this turn of events. Having played every single Pokemon since Pokemon Red/Blue/Green I have already played the absolute crap out of every pokemon in existence. If scaling down the number of monsters makes the combat more fair, balanced, and fun and gives them more time to add more interesting features I welcome the experiment.

it will not make any balance any better lmao you'll be foolish to think so and i also highly doubt you used all the pokemon in competitive battles
let's have a look at a balance scenario
if pokemon A is overpowered and the strongest, followed by pokemon B and pokemon C

removing A would not suddenly make the game balanced, since now B/C would dominate the meta
its like a hydra you cut of one head, another one pops

Pluupy · Jun 17, 2019

Why didn't they just do what they did with Pokemon Black and White with the forest things? This is a step backwards.

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