Homebrew WIP [Official] DeltaLaunch

SciresM · Jun 3, 2019

blawar said:
Sept is not GPL 2 compliant, thus it is not open source:

The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable.

There is no means to actually compile *and* install sept because you do not include the signing key (or even offer to sign people's builds), thus it is not GPL 2 compliant. Nor can modifications be made to sept.

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html

Actually, all scripts required to compile sept are concluded. A user may compile and generate the same plaintext binary that I do (with same compiler config), and modify it to their heart's content. Scripts are even included to generate .enc files, and users can build and modify to their heart's content.

This requirement of the GPL is actually why keys_template.py is included -- it satisfies the relevant requirement as build instructions are allowed to require copying/configuring for the user's build system.

The only thing they cannot do is run those builds on hardware, since they would be built with the wrong keys...however this is not a requirement of GPLv2.

Look into TiVo cases, sept is 100% in the clear.

cots · Jun 3, 2019

Does anyone have any screen shots or a video of this in action? I've seen the leaked beta stuff, but I'd like to see the original. If not, no worries, I quad-boot Atmosphere, ReiNX, Hekate and Linux so I will eventually get to installing it.

Also;

I have no problem using closed source software. I bought the Switch and it uses a closed source OS. I buy video games for the Switch and they are closed source. I also run Windows sometimes, it's closed source. I also don't mind paying for something that I find useful or like. With that said, I mainly run Linux and 99% of the apps I use on a daily basis are open source. One thing I don't understand though, is if you don't want someone using your code in a manner you dislike in a scene built around violating licenses and copyrights than maybe it's not the best idea to post it's source code on a page that anyone can access? There is also no reason to be a jerk. I don't find anything wrong with a homebrew author deciding not to make his or her work open source, but there's no reason to be a dick about it. That includes users being jerks because the author didn't make it open source and the author being a jerk because their users are being dicks.

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Crusatyr said:
I'm just amazed how salty people get because someone who is working on a CFW made something that they wanted to work on their CFW. Are y'all gonna act the same way if SciresM did something similar to atmo?

I don't have this problem because I don't limit myself to using only a certain custom firmware.

blawar · Jun 3, 2019

SciresM said:
Actually, all scripts required to compile sept are concluded. A user may compile and generate the same plaintext binary that I do (with same compiler config), and modify it to their heart's content. Scripts are even included to generate .enc files, and users can build and modify to their heart's content.

This requirement of the GPL is actually why keys_template.py is included -- it satisfies the relevant requirement as build instructions are allowed to require copying/configuring for the user's build system.

The only thing they cannot do is run those builds on hardware, since they would be built with the wrong keys...however this is not a requirement of GPLv2.

Look into TiVo cases, sept is 100% in the clear.

Tivo settled that suit before trial and agreed to hire an open source compliance officer. Are you aware of any case where a court actually reached the merits?

And let's be clear here, Richard Stallman, the guy who wrote the license you are using, does not believe what you are doing is open source, and neither do I.

I believe it is grey area to claim sept is GPL compliant, but it is an untruth to call it free open source software.

edit: Just to distinguish the two even further, Tivo never pretended to be open source, they were merely attempting to comply with licenses.

SciresM · Jun 3, 2019

blawar said:
Tivo settled that suit before trial and agreed to hire an open source compliance officer. Are you aware of any case where a court actually reached the merits?

And let's be clear here, Richard Stallman, the guy who wrote the license you are using, does not believe what you are doing is open source, and neither do I.

I believe it is grey area to claim sept is GPL compliant, but it is an untruth to call it free open source software.

edit: Just to distinguish the two even further, Tivo never pretended to be open source, they were merely attempting to comply with licenses.

You're correct that no cases have made their way to a court -- however, I'd observe that RMS/FSF did take the stance that TiVo was compliant: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/opposing-drm.en.html ("As required by the GPL, you can get the source code for the system. You can change the code, recompile and install it.").

I agree, even in the statement I linked, RMS takes the stance that calling the kind of freedom here freedom is "a sham." Luckily, RMS's personal opinions aren't the legal standard.

Sept is unambiguously GPLv2 compliant. There is no grey area, just as there was no grey area with regards to TiVo's compliance.

Sept is fully compliant with the terms of the GPLv2 free/oss license. Thus, I consider it free and open source under the GPLv2. You're welcome to disagree and hold it to a higher standard, but "under the GPLv2" is clear and unambiguous.

EDIT: Also, so far as I can tell, the case you're talking about (settle + open source compliance officer) was not TiVo, it was Monsoon Multimedia (BusyBox) -- and they were not, in fact, complying with GPL. I can't find any record of any claims that TiVo was in violation of the license's terms.

cots · Jun 3, 2019

blawar said:
Tivo settled that suit before trial and agreed to ...

Might I ask, what is the point debating valid licenses in a scene based around invalidating licensing and copyrights?

stitchxd · Jun 3, 2019

blawar said:
Sept is not GPL 2 compliant, thus it is not open source:

The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable.

There is no means to actually compile *and* install sept because you do not include the signing key (or even offer to sign people's builds), thus it is not GPL 2 compliant. Nor can modifications be made to sept.

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html

There are many more open source licenses beyond GPL. (Installing is not a requirement to be open source, stop spreading blatant lies.) Looks like you need to learn how to read. (a play off of what you told another user in a previous post.)

blawar · Jun 3, 2019

cots said:
Might I ask, what is the point debating valid licenses in a scene based around invalidating licensing and copyrights?

This debate is not about violating licenses; scires is the author of sept, it is impossible for him to violate his own license. This debate is about pointing out the hypocrisy of criticizing something rei is doing, yet not criticizing scires for doing nearly the same thing.

SciresM · Jun 3, 2019

blawar said:
This debate is not about violating licenses; scires is the author of sept, it is impossible for him to violate his own license. This debate is about pointing out the hypocrisy of criticizing something rei is doing, yet not criticizing scires for doing nearly the same thing.

If Rei wants to make DeltaLaunch closed source, he's well within his rights to do so as the sole copyright holder, and I would support that decision morally.

Whether or not sept's practices are deserving of criticism isn't something that has an objective answer -- I am happy and morally fine with it, but I can understand why others might take affront to it.

There's no equivalence, though -- sept's source is open, and it can be compiled and modified and run on other platforms (emulators, for example).

blawar · Jun 3, 2019

SciresM said:
If Rei wants to make DeltaLaunch closed source, he's well within his rights to do so as the sole copyright holder, and I would support that decision morally.

Whether or not sept's practices are deserving of criticism isn't something that has an objective answer -- I am happy and morally fine with it, but I can understand why others might take affront to it.

There's no equivalence, though -- sept's source is open, and it can be compiled and modified and run on other platforms (emulators, for example).

Hopefully we can at least agree that by not releasing the key, you are applying Nvidia's built-in DRM to your software, in the same way that rei implemented a form of DRM in his.

Ordinarily, I would give you the benefit of the doubt in that you were just getting tegra to boot your payload, however due to statements made, and the fact that you will not sign any other payloads written by other developers tells me that you are intentionally leveraging nvidia's DRM to protect your software, which admittedly is very clever. But it is what it is: it is DRM intended to prevent undesired modification.

The key thing that I do not like in this thread, is people (not you) criticizing Rei's DRM but not sept's DRM. I have no problms with DRM, or closed source. I just dislike hypocrisy.

cots · Jun 3, 2019

blawar said:
This debate is not about violating licenses; scires is the author of sept, it is impossible for him to violate his own license. This debate is about pointing out the hypocrisy of criticizing something rei is doing, yet not criticizing scires for doing nearly the same thing.

Okay.

SciresM said:
If Rei wants to make DeltaLaunch closed source, he's well within his rights to do so as the sole copyright holder, and I would support that decision morally.

Whether or not sept's practices are deserving of criticism isn't something that has an objective answer -- I am happy and morally fine with it, but I can understand why others might take affront to it.

There's no equivalence, though -- sept's source is open, and it can be compiled and modified and run on other platforms (emulators, for example).

The source for sept is open for anyone to read or use. It compiles just fine. It functions just as expected - You have the correct key it functions just fine and if you have the incorrect key it functions just as it should without the correct key. I can see the point blawar is trying to make, but the programs source is online and it compiles just fine. So, not that's it really any of my business, but I'd say sept is indeed open source software. I also like how to commented about Rei's decision to make his new stuff closed source. I don't think making your stuff closed source should automatically target you for hate.

SciresM · Jun 3, 2019

blawar said:
Hopefully we can at least agree that by not releasing the key, you are applying Nvidia's built-in DRM to your software, in the same way that rei implemented a form of DRM in his.

Ordinarily, I would give you the benefit of the doubt in that you were just getting tegra to boot your payload, however due to statements made, and the fact that you will not sign any other payloads written by other developers tells me that you are intentionally leveraging nvidia's DRM to protect your software, which admittedly is very clever. But it is what it is: it is DRM intended to prevent undesired modification.

The key thing that I do not like in this thread, is people (not you) criticizing Rei's DRM but not sept's DRM. I have no problms with DRM, or closed source. I just dislike hypocrisy.

I do indeed agree that by not releasing the key, I am leveraging NVidia's hardware DRM for my software.

I don't agree that Rei's implementing a form of DRM -- I do not think that "not releasing the source to your software" is DRM. I'll note this point is debatable, but that's my stance.

I have two points in this thread, I think:

1. Sept is free and open source software under the GPLv2, as it is fully compliant with all terms of that free/OSS license.

2. People are welcome to feel like sept deserves criticism, given the hardware DRM it leverages. People may also feel like DeltaLaunch deserves criticism, because it is now closed-source. However, these are two different things to criticize for, and not comparable -- someone could very legitimately want to criticize sept but not think DeltaLaunch is doing anything wrong, and someone could very legitimately want to criticize DeltaLaunch but not think sept is doing anything wrong.

My personal stance is that neither are doing anything wrong -- I think closed-source software is worse for everybody involved than open source software, particularly in a scene like this, but as the sole author and copyright holder it's Rei's decision to have his software be open-source or not and he's not actually doing anything wrong by choosing closed-source.

Crusatyr · Jun 3, 2019

So, I think I'm the first with this, but here's my WIP delta theme, based off of my favorite starter pack, RajNX.

The theme folder to used my theme should be attached.

It has been brought to my attention that directly copy/pasting the attached themes folder does not work. You need to manually create the themes and ranjx folder, copy and paste the rajnx.cfg into themes, and then move just the images from the zipped rajnx folder into the one on the sdcard.

EDIT: Updated theme to replace the Sleep icon with a custom one

Essasetic · Jun 3, 2019

Crusatyr said:
So, I think I'm the first with this, but here's my WIP delta theme, based off of my favorite starter pack, RajNX.
View attachment 168967
View attachment 168968

The theme folder to used my theme should be attached.

Fucking masterpiece

ZachyCatGames · Jun 3, 2019

SciresM said:
I don't agree that Rei's implementing a form of DRM -- I do not think that "not releasing the source to your software" is DRM. I'll note this point is debatable, but that's my stance.

Rei intentionally locked DeltaLaunch down to only be usable on ReiNX for no reason other than making it exclusively usable to ReiNX, that’s what most people who are saying it has DRM are talking about.

SciresM · Jun 3, 2019

ZachyCatGames said:
Rei intentionally locked DeltaLaunch down to only be usable on ReiNX for no reason other than making it exclusively usable to ReiNX, that’s what most people who are saying it has DRM are talking about.

Ahh. That is "DRM", then, yes. From a casual check of the leaked source code, it seems trivially bypassable, though?

In any event, I still think that the two are independently criticizable -- sept does not make any attempt to force the user to run a specific payload after it is done, it will chainload anything. I think that's a noteworthy distinction. I understand how someone could feel like there was hypocrisy criticizing one but not the other, though, since both can indeed be called DRM.

Asia81 · Jun 3, 2019

any videos of this in action?

stitchxd · Jun 3, 2019

A mod needs to lock this thread it's so off topic its starting to get cringe-y.

Asia81 · Jun 3, 2019

stitchxd said:
A mod needs to lock this thread it's so off topic its starting to get cringe-y.

Every threads where blawar is, toxic the thread will be.

stitchxd · Jun 3, 2019

Asia81 said:
Every threads where blawar is, toxic the thread will be.

To add to the cringe, yes. I agree. He constantly has his "Facts" incorrect.

Quantumcat · Jun 3, 2019

Can everyone stay on topic please

Homebrew WIP [Official] DeltaLaunch

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