US anti-lootbox bill formally introduced, begins to gain political traction

Arras · May 27, 2019

migles said:
so what will happen with every mobile game? like thoose clickers with gems and shit? do theese count?
i mean there is usually a leaderboard and with facebook integration you compete against your friends and obviously who spends money in diamonds\currency gets the upper hand..
will theese be also banned?

With the law as it is stated in the first post, yes. Speeding up construction timers with money is banned, gacha is banned, filling stamina timers would likely be banned, buying equipment that provides stats is banned, pretty much every method mobile games use to make money would be banned.

Chary said:
the ability to not have to wait for things to unlock

This covers a lot of stuff.

deinonychus71 · May 27, 2019

the_randomizer said:
Games should be completed before release, paying for lootboxes that serve no purpose is a waste of money, if you're going to go after people who complain about lootboxes, and target them for being ""jobless losers" then go piss up a rope. I'd like to see you jobless, then we'll see who has the last laugh.

Cosmetic items is what keeps quite a bunch of games alive. MMOs and "community games" are the main target here. These games are meant to be in continuous development to keep its playerbase active. Keeping the community involved with fresh content is as important for the company as it is for the players. "games should be completed before release" doesn't apply to them.
Cosmetics do not hurt a game progression, but without them, most MMOs will simply die tomorrow. Guild Wars 2 (using a game I know well) has no way of making money without it, being heavily "fashion war". The base cost is simply not enough to maintain it.

Now even for games that do not enter this category, "games should be completed before release" is still a flawed argument. Some companies are definitely abusing the concept of dlc, but for a lot of them, DLCs actually come out of the players asking for more. I've seen that argument for the smash fighter pass before... but it's pretty obvious what would have happened if they had included the fighter pass in the game at release: people would have asked for another fighter pass.

And last, the pricing of deluxe editions or season pass tend to match the price a video game would have been should the base price had been corrected for inflation.

This bill is good because pretty neutral overall, it tackles the worst aspect of lootboxes while still giving some breathing room for companies and games that offer premium, fully optional extras.

murdersbane · May 27, 2019

deinonychus71 said:
Cosmetic items is what keeps quite a bunch of games alive. MMOs and "community games" are the main target here. These games are meant to be in continuous development to keep its playerbase active. Keeping the community involved with fresh content is as important for the company as it is for the players. "games should be completed before release" doesn't apply to them.
Cosmetics do not hurt a game progression, but without them, most MMOs will simply die tomorrow. Guild Wars 2 (using a game I know well) has no way of making money without it, being heavily "fashion war". The base cost is simply not enough to maintain it.

Now even for games that do not enter this category, "games should be completed before release" is still a flawed argument. Some companies are definitely abusing the concept of dlc, but for a lot of them, DLCs actually come out of the players asking for more. I've seen that argument for the smash fighter pass before... but it's pretty obvious what would have happened if they had included the fighter pass in the game at release: people would have asked for another fighter pass.

And last, the pricing of deluxe editions or season pass tend to match the price a video game would have been should the base price had been corrected for inflation.

This bill is good because pretty neutral overall, it tackles the worst aspect of lootboxes while still giving some breathing room for companies and games that offer premium, fully optional extras.

Finally someone who just gets it.

Your post is well worded and should honestly be pinned.

Obveron · May 27, 2019

Cosmetic microtransactions are not the issue. It's the loot box gamble where you don't know what you'll get that is the issue. It is a business model where most of the playerbase is unaffected but exploits the minority with addictive tendencies and problem gamblers into funding most of the revenue.

Rahkeesh · May 27, 2019

mr allen said:
Something like that would fall under government regulation which the supreme court already said violates freedom of speech.

I'm gonna guess you aren't suggesting something ridiculous like all government regulation has been ruled unconstitutional, in which case the FDA would be dissolved and we could get back to buying rotten food from the grocery stores with zero accountability or recalls.

If you mean that the government can't use age to regulate what someone buys, see alcohol and cigarettes. Or gambling which loot boxes are already extremely close to. Minors are lacking in quite a few rights beyond that. I don't see why microtransactions or some subset of them can't be put on that list.

I brought this up because the OP totally seems to have forgot that this is the "protect children" act, and these proposed restrictions would only apply to games that are sold to minors. My guess is that more companies will do whatever they can to appear like they aren't selling to minors rather than cutting back on the microtransactions.

Dimensional · May 27, 2019

Rahkeesh said:
I'm gonna guess you aren't suggesting something ridiculous like all government regulation has been ruled unconstitutional, in which case the FDA would be dissolved and we could get back to buying rotten food from the grocery stores with zero accountability or recalls.

If you mean that the government can't use age to regulate what someone buys, see alcohol and cigarettes. Or gambling which loot boxes are already extremely close to. Minors are lacking in quite a few rights beyond that. I don't see why microtransactions or some subset of them can't be put on that list.

I brought this up because the OP totally seems to have forgot that this is the "protect children" act, and these proposed restrictions would only apply to games that are sold to minors. My guess is that more companies will do whatever they can to appear like they aren't selling to minors rather than cutting back on the microtransactions.

It does sound a bit extreme, but I definitely see where you're coming from. As for loot boxes, they actually fall under the Dictionary's Definition of Gambling. Nothing in the Dictionary states you have to get something out of it. The Definition of Gambling states "Staking something of worth in a game of chance." You can find many others online, but multiple sources spell it out the same way, you just stake something of worth in a game of chance.

The companies will most certainly try to both stop this bill from being passed by any means necessary, and will try to say they aren't selling games to minors. The latter will most certainly fail because lets face it, anyone will want to play a game, and could play the game, and quite frankly that's where most of the money comes from, and everyone knows that. The industry wants to push all the blame on the parents, not admit to their own wrongdoings. Yes, the parents should be at fault, but the entire blame shouldn't just be pushed onto them. The industry is also to blame for letting it get this bad. They did the absolute least amount of work to prevent this, and that was half-hearted from the start. Anyone not willing to accept responsibility for their part in a problem deserves what's coming to them, individual or industry.

If the industry isn't willing to admit they could have done a lot more, and should have, then they deserve this bill to be passed and to change their tactics. Will they lose money? Most likely, especially if they put all their future in this malicious practice. Will they go out of business? Only the subsidiaries who's finances are directly tied to this, but more than likely the big companies like EA and Zenimax will just close down some of the child studies so they can keep their billions instead of lose it. Then they will rethink their efforts and maybe actually build something great for once.

I'm certain that this bill will force the industry and all companies that practice this malicious activity to rethink and actually strive to seriously innovate for the first time in over a decade. If this bill passes, and I hope it does, then companies like EA and Zenimax will have to work to make truly better products instead of making something that takes 5 minutes on MS Paint and selling it for $50. So I think both sides will want this to pass because with it companies will actually have to decide to make money through innovation and building better products instead of through cheap and quick cash grabs.

murdersbane · May 27, 2019

Obveron said:
Cosmetic microtransactions are not the issue. It's the loot box gamble where you don't know what you'll get that is the issue. It is a business model where most of the playerbase is unaffected but exploits the minority with addictive tendencies and problem gamblers into funding most of the revenue.

That's the people with "addictive tendencys" problem ._.

That is like trying to ban McDonald's because a couple fat useless people decided to only eat at McDonald's and complain they got fat.

If you know u can't control yourself don't get into the product. It's NOT a company's job to regulate YOU. It's YOUR job to regulate yourself... Have a gambling problem? Get help... Don't cry about there being things like cosmetic loot boxs

Now go cry for a safe space.

Sakitoshi · May 27, 2019

limpbiz411 said:
I'd love to play Overwatch without BS

You always could, its loot boxes contain only cosmetics and you get them for free playing the game.

I find that using overwatch loot boxes as the op image is very misleading.

Dimensional · May 27, 2019

murdersbane said:
That's the people with "addictive tendencys" problem ._.

That is like trying to ban McDonald's because a couple fat useless people decided to only eat at McDonald's and complain they got fat.

If you know u can't control yourself don't get into the product. It's NOT a company's job to regulate YOU. It's YOUR job to regulate yourself... Have a gambling problem? Get help... Don't cry about there being things like cosmetic loot boxs

Now go cry for a safe space.

That may be true, but what if they eat at McDonald's isn't as simple as that? What if they eat there because it's cheap and they can only afford it? What if the unhealthy method is the only thing they can get because the other options either aren't there or they simply can't afford it? Not to mention all the advertisements spent on said unhealthy food. Yes, the people who got fat probably could have chosen to eat elsewhere, but then what else would have happened in that regard? And what if the food isn't the only thing they are consuming? What if there's a chemical put into the food that makes it taste better and is more addicting? The company would be doing it intentionally too to boost sales and cut down on costs.Then where does the fault lie? Still solely with the people who chose to eat there? If they were aware of it, then they could have gained the self control to keep from eating the addicting food and not gotten fat, but then the company artificially enhanced the food to boost sales not caring it would get people fat. 2 sides who are equally at fault, with one side may have less of a choice in the matter than the other, but still having some of the blame regardless.

limpbiz411 · May 27, 2019

Sakitoshi said:
You always could, its loot boxes contain only cosmetics and you get them for free playing the game.

I find that using overwatch loot boxes as the op image is very misleading.

i understand that but what i mean is their should have never been micro transactions int his game in the first place. I bought it day 1. It should have been a free to play game.

Bladexdsl · May 27, 2019

murdersbane said:
Mobile is unsaveable when all games come from China/Japan and all have lootboxs

GOOD

Viri · May 27, 2019

Ampersound said:
What about trading card games? I mean technically it's the exact some thing. It doesn't matter if it's digital only or if kids are buying overpriced cardboard, in the end it's p2w lootboxes.

As a kid who collected Pokemon cards, I can confirm, it is in fact gambling for kids.

deinonychus71 · May 27, 2019

Dimensional said:
That may be true, but what if they eat at McDonald's isn't as simple as that? What if they eat there because it's cheap and they can only afford it? What if the unhealthy method is the only thing they can get because the other options either aren't there or they simply can't afford it? Not to mention all the advertisements spent on said unhealthy food. Yes, the people who got fat probably could have chosen to eat elsewhere, but then what else would have happened in that regard? And what if the food isn't the only thing they are consuming? What if there's a chemical put into the food that makes it taste better and is more addicting? The company would be doing it intentionally too to boost sales and cut down on costs.Then where does the fault lie? Still solely with the people who chose to eat there? If they were aware of it, then they could have gained the self control to keep from eating the addicting food and not gotten fat, but then the company artificially enhanced the food to boost sales not caring it would get people fat. 2 sides who are equally at fault, with one side may have less of a choice in the matter than the other, but still having some of the blame regardless.

That is a lot of if.
I have a few "addictions". One of them is energy drinks. I know it's bad to drink 2/3 a day, but whenever I'm upset at work I do it. Energy drinks are an addiction that is killing people. Is it something plaguing poor people because they can't afford better?
What about smoking? What about drinking?
The problem is by constantly giving people an excuse you are only managing to deresponsibilize them. It doesn't fix the core issue that is self-control. So If you cut down their addiction by legal ways... that they will simply find another thing to be addicted to.
The world is never that black and white. Companies are not just pure evil, they're there to make money, but they want to avoid PR nightmares.

And so in any situation like this, I think it is important to stick to the essence of the issue:
- Kids are introduced to gambling through malicious ways: That is a problem to me, as kids are by law not responsible until a certain age. Parents who give money/credit cards to their kids for gambling purpose are just as bad.
- P2W lootboxes are giving unfair advantage in video games, aka one's addiction is affecting other players. The only way to establish fair competition is then to gamble as well.

You're never going to prevent people from gambling. Gambling is something that can be deeply enjoyed, too. It's not "always" bad. But it has to be regulated in a way that makes it fair for all parties, while keeping "children" out of that.

tangotnt · May 27, 2019

loot boxes are terrible,

but stuff like timesavers (extra crafting material's in AC blackflag or in the dmc series like the super 3 pack) are all fine.

but when you rng to anything (such a awful idea)

but then again it sounds like this aimed out at any non rated m games, and only kid stuff @ the moment.

deinonychus71 · May 27, 2019

tangotnt said:
loot boxes are terrible,

but stuff like timesavers (extra crafting material's in AC blackflag or in the dmc series like the super 3 pack) are all fine.

but when you rng to anything (such a awful idea)

but then again it sounds like this aimed out at any non rated m games, and only kid stuff @ the moment.

Timesavers are there in solo games because these games are made artificially grindy in the first place.
Personally, I think that falls under malicious intent.

Again, the matter is different with MMOs/ community driven games, as the "effort" to obtain the "reward" is part of the DNA of such games. You can't have "everyone" obtain the same rewards otherwise they have no value.

Obveron · May 27, 2019

murdersbane said:
That's the people with "addictive tendencys" problem ._.

That is like trying to ban McDonald's because a couple fat useless people decided to only eat at McDonald's and complain they got fat.

If you know u can't control yourself don't get into the product. It's NOT a company's job to regulate YOU. It's YOUR job to regulate yourself... Have a gambling problem? Get help... Don't cry about there being things like cosmetic loot boxs

Now go cry for a safe space.

It's the government's job to regulate companies through law. There are regulations on gambling, and loot boxes may be regulated soon also. Your opinion may be that there should be zero regulation and leave it to the public and free market to regulate themselves. That's fine to have your opinion on the matter, but it doesn't change the reality that there are laws restricting companies offering gambling and other addictive products.

Justinde75 · May 27, 2019

Honestly I both want it and dont want it. I dont want it since it'll change gacha games, which I think are alot of fun. But it'll make games more single player focused which is good

Xabring · May 27, 2019

wow, if this passes, lot's of facebook games will be GONE in DAYS!

Arras said:
banning any type of progression-based microtransactions will instantly kill 95% of all mobile games, lmao.

or the entire mobile industry.

cots · May 27, 2019

If you're using loot boxes to advance in the game you clearly suck at the game and are cheating. Why buy a game if you're not going to spend the time to get good at it? Isn't playing the game kinda the point? I won't play a game where you can simply "buy your way" to an advanced level or cheat your way through it. I come from a time when the best hints you'd get on how to beat that boss on level 3 was from some random kid at school that manged to do it. I also find the use of a FAQ or walkthrough on the first run of a game to be cheating. I mean, if you can't play and can't invest the time in a game than maybe you shouldn't be playing games. Cheating and passing the last stage or getting the best score because of it doesn't mean anything other than you're a shitty gamer who had to cheat to win.

mr allen · May 27, 2019

Rahkeesh said:
I'm gonna guess you aren't suggesting something ridiculous like all government regulation has been ruled unconstitutional, in which case the FDA would be dissolved and we could get back to buying rotten food from the grocery stores with zero accountability or recalls.

If you mean that the government can't use age to regulate what someone buys, see alcohol and cigarettes. Or gambling which loot boxes are already extremely close to. Minors are lacking in quite a few rights beyond that. I don't see why microtransactions or some subset of them can't be put on that list.

I brought this up because the OP totally seems to have forgot that this is the "protect children" act, and these proposed restrictions would only apply to games that are sold to minors. My guess is that more companies will do whatever they can to appear like they aren't selling to minors rather than cutting back on the microtransactions.

I was referring to this: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/08-1448.pdf which specifically says that games are protected speech in relations to minors. As it stands any attempt for the government to regulate the sale of video games to minors has already been ruled unconstitutional and that even includes trying to regulate micro-transactions for minors as it was a blanket ruling on free speech and video games.

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