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New Abortion Law Wave

cracker

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Let's get some things straightened out here. For starters, animals have no moral code. Most animals lack the cognitive ability to perform any higher intellectual function, let alone grasp abstract concepts. In fact, most creatures in the animal kingdom don't even think, per se - they react to external stimuli, which is different. You're focusing a little bit too much on advanced vertebrates there. Secondly, even atheists follow some form of a philosophy in life, and to simplify matters for the sake of this discussion, we'll treat religion as a philosophy with an added aspect of divinity. There are people who believe in the divine and there are people who don't, however both groups *have beliefs*, and it's their belief systems that help them co strict moral hierarchies. Even the biggest nihilist believes in something, it's an integral part of the human existence and one of many things that differentiate us from animals.

As Paul Stanley likes to say: we're all animals! :)

Primatologists have found behaviors in apes that suggest otherwise. They have been shown to exhibit signs of guilt which is a huge indicator of morals.
 

Foxi4

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Also - here is where our deeper love for children comes from:
2560px-Kopfproportionen.svg.png

src: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuteness

Its an imprint. They need more care, so we are primed to give them more. Because if we werent - they wouldnt survive as well. And that would hurt us as a species.

We all feel it. Its not that some of us just dont. (Well, psychopaths may not, but those are a very tiny percentage, not half of your populations and more ultimately being in favor of abortions.)
I wouldn't necessarily use that argument when talking about fetuses since they're still in the process of growing, they look like a fish throughout early pregnancy and are anything but cute. There's also the "cuteness overload" threshold at which something is "so cute" that you want to crush it - the scientific term for it is "cute aggression" and it's why we want to hug cute animals tightly. It can turn pathological, but we're dwelling into pathological behaviour there.
 

Xzi

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Once again, in the great majority of cases abortion is a matter of murder for convenience.
We obviously have a starkly different world view. As if there's anything 'convenient' about living in a hellhole like Alabama. Taking away more freedom of choice isn't going to improve things there. On top of that, I simply don't acknowledge the idiotic argument that abortion is murder, in a vast majority of cases anyway. Personally I believe life begins once the brain, nervous system, basically everything is fully developed, because all of these are components necessary to consciousness. As I've said previously, I also believe abortion is a necessity in the over-capitalist world we live in, where most of the resources are funneled to a very small portion of the populace.

Depending on where you look, abortions required due to rape or incest total at under 1%, I often see the figure 0.13%, which in my eyes makes this a red herring and non-issue that's meant to push abortions for the remaining 99% who have other reasons.
Oh gee, maybe like economic reasons and/or the father is a deadbeat absentee? :unsure:

Looking at the CDC stats I can see that the majority of abortions are performed within the first 14 weeks of pregnancy and the patients are in their twenties. Moreover, the total number is increasing, not decreasing, which tells me that our more promiscuous modern lifestyle which introduces teens to the issues regarding sex has the opposite result to the one you're expecting, but that's besides the point. I never quite got the whole "education" angle - what's there to educate those kids about?
A lot of these kids, especially in red states, are getting abstinence-only education in school, which works about as well for anti-sex as DARE did for being anti-drugs. Which is to say, it doesn't work well at all. Then their parents have to buy the teens an abortion. A lot of the parents then simply don't provide supplemental education for whatever reason, and the cycle ends up repeating itself. Sarah Palin's family is an excellent example.
 
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notimp

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You're a bunch of cells too. It seems arbitrary to choose how big the lump of cells must be before we consider it human, it's far more productive to discuss circumstances when we can create exceptions to our general dislike of killing human life.
It is arbitrary. Thats the point.

You attribute rights, at certain points. Its all a freaking compromise.

Even human rights are violated all the time.

The 'the love thy next as you would love yourselves' prinicple is violated all the time.

Whe can even predict, when it will be violated (wars start), based on basic needs, and if there is enough around to satisfy those. (Now, thats not an issue in the western world - but, ... (Just making you think about concepts.))

Most people arguing for "no abortions, period" are comong from a "love is absolute" standpoint. Even that isnt true. Love can turn hatred and harm. We chose to kind of minimize the situation in which it does. Did we go too far? Hard to say. I don't think so.

But craft your societies around "its your responsibility - to have the child", and you'll see all kinds of societal harms and sad stories spring up, that havent been there in the past. 'But at least the child will live'. Yes that it will.

Compromises - thats really what its about.
 
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Foxi4

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As Paul Stanley likes to say: we're all animals! :)

Primatologists have found behaviors in apes that suggest otherwise. They have been shown to exhibit signs of guilt which is a huge indicator of morals.
There's a long way from guilt to a whole system of morals, there is a number of different things that can trigger "observable guilt", but again, you're limiting yourself to primates which are an edge case - we're primates. Apes are extremely close to us genetically. On the whole you build your moral hierarchy based on life experience as well as what is passed down to you by your environment, this includes tradition, philosophy, religion, a whole number of things. In fact, I would argue that although an atheist does not believe in the existence of God, that doesn't necessarily mean that their moral compass isn't based on their religious background - it most certainly is as religion shaped their culture to begin with. All if these things are quite interconnected.
 

notimp

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I wouldn't necessarily use that argument when talking about fetuses since they're still in the process of growing, they look like a fish throughout early pregnancy and are anything but cute. There's also the "cuteness overload" threshold at which something is "so cute" that you want to crush it - the scientific term for it is "cute aggression" and it's why we want to hug cute animals tightly. It can turn pathological, but we're dwelling into pathological behaviour there.
But people literally have the image of babies in their minds, when they say - dont kill them babies. I just want them to understand, that almost everyone is feeling that as well. Half of the population isnt just oddbals that dont. We are literally thinking around it in some situations. And it is freaking hard.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Someone needs to jump in on this and start a designer embryo / 'clump of cells with no human rights' sales business.
Simple.

Who is allowed to make the decision over aborting "clump of cells". The mother. That is carrying out the child until it sees the world for the first time (poetic language).

Any other concepts of pressure or power (price!) we dont allow in that context. They exist inadvertently - but we remove literally all other pressures we can from that decision on purpose. We even tell mothers, if you arent in a situation, where you think you can care for the child - you give it away, and society will care for it. But we still allow them the decision.
 
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barronwaffles

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Who is allowed to make the decision over aborting "clump of cells". The mother. That is carrying out the child until it sees the world for the first time (poetic language).

Any other concepts of pressure or power (price!) we dont allow in that context. They exist inadvertently - but we remove literally all other pressures we can from that decision on purpose.

Why are you using the word 'child' here?
 

Foxi4

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We obviously have a starkly different world view. As if there's anything 'convenient' about living in a hellhole like Alabama. Taking away more freedom of choice isn't going to improve things there. On top of that, I simply don't acknowledge the idiotic argument that abortion is murder, in a vast majority of cases anyway. Personally I believe life begins once the brain, nervous system, basically everything is fully developed, because all of these are components necessary to consciousness. As I've said previously, I also believe abortion is a necessity in the over-capitalist world we live in, where most of the resources are funneled to a very small portion of the populace.

Oh gee, maybe like economic reasons and/or the father is a deadbeat absentee? :unsure:

A lot of these kids, especially in red states, are getting abstinence-only education in school, which works about as well for anti-sex as DARE did for being anti-drugs. Which is to say, it doesn't work well at all. Then their parents have to buy the teens an abortion. A lot of the parents then simply don't provide supplemental education for whatever reason, and the cycle ends up repeating itself. Sarah Palin's family is an excellent example.
So convenience then. Got it. I just wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth. As for the whole DARE shabam, the one thing I remember from Sex Ed is putting a condom on a banana. I am somehow yet to impregnate a woman on accident, and I'm not a youngster anymore. I have a feeling it had less to do with the banana and more to do with having responsible parents who taught me well. I'm all for educating kids, go nuts my friend, but if you expect it to have a measurable result in decreasing the number of unwanted pregnancies, I think that ship has sailed - you can't turn on the TV or listen to a song without a celebrity teaching kids all they need to know about putting that in there. The only thing that will reduce this number is a higher focus on teaching young people personal responsibility, and you can't do that if you intend to bail them out each and every time. This is less in the hands of the state and more in the hands of the parents, so perhaps your educational programs should be aimed at them.
It is arbitrary. Thats the point.

You attribute rights, at certain points. Its all a freaking compromise.

Even human rights are violated all the time.

The 'the love thy next as you would love yourselves' prinicple is violated all the time.

Whe can even predict, when it will be violated (wars start), based on basic needs, and if there is enough around to satisfy those. (Now, thats not an issue in the western world - but, ... (Just making you think about concepts.))

Most people arguing for "no abortions, period" are comong from a "love is absolute" standpoint. Even that isnt true. Love can turn hatred and harm. We chose to kind of minimize the situation is which it does. Did we go too far? Hard to say. I don't think so.

But craft your societies around "its your responsibility - to have the child", and you'll see all kinds of societal harms and sad stories spring up, that havent been there in the past. 'But at least the child will live'. Yes that it will.

Compromises - thats really what its about.
You can only have a compromise when both sides want one - I went into this thread believing that they don't and I continue to believe so. This isn't a debate that just suddenly popped up in the news, it's a debate that goes as far as our written record of history. It's not getting resolved in a way that satisfies both parties, at least not in the foreseeable future. :P
 

Xzi

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So convenience then. Got it. I just wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth.
Necessity is not the same as convenience. The only way to mix the two up is if you're being purposefully disingenuous.

The only thing that will reduce this number is a higher focus on teaching young people personal responsibility, and you can't do that if you intend to bail them out each and every time. This is less in the hands of the state and more in the hands of the parents, so perhaps your educational programs should be aimed at them.
I don't have any issue with educational programs for the parents as well, but it's definitely an issue that needs to be tackled head-on, too. Teens need to use contraceptives if they're going to be having sex, and abstinence-only education is deluding ourselves into believing that they won't be having any sex, thus it can't be used to promote safe sex practices.
 
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Foxi4

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Necessity is not the same as convenience. The only way to mix the two up is if you're being purposefully disingenuous.
There's nothing necessary about it, especially considering the amount of childless marriages waiting for healthy newborns. Personal responsibility - don't screw around if you literally can't afford to face the consequences.
 

barronwaffles

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Coming at it from he other 'sides' angle. Rhetoric element. But actually something I didn't think about. Wanting to bring both sides into the argument.

It's not going to be a terribly effective element when the result is a statement tacitly condoning the abortion of children.
 

Xzi

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There's nothing necessary about it, especially considering the amount of childless marriages waiting for healthy newborns. Personal responsibility - don't screw around if you literally can't afford to face the consequences.
This fails to acknowledge that there are too many children in the system already who don't get adopted, and turn to either vagrancy or criminality later in life.
 

Foxi4

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This fails to acknowledge that there are too many children in the system already who don't get adopted, and turn to either vagrancy or criminality later in life.
I didn't make the system, I just don't want to give people a carte blanche to kill unborn children indiscriminately. You seem to be on-board with the "Safe and legal", but you're forgetting about the "rare" - "rare" is where people like me get to have a say. Once again, an analogy - I'm sure keeping grandpa alive is expensive since you have to feed and clothe him, but you can't just kill him. Send him to a home if you must, but your convenience does not supersede his right to live, regardless of how deep your wallet is. The same applies to an unborn baby. If someone needs an abortion, they better have a good reason to need one - them making a mistake is not good enough.
 

Xzi

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Once again, an analogy - I'm sure keeping grandpa alive is expensive since you have to feed and clothe him, but you can't just kill him. Send him to a home if you must, but your convenience does not supercede his life, regardless of how deep your wallet is. The same applies to an unborn baby. If soneone needs an abortion, they better have a good reason to need one - them making a mistake is not good enough.
It's not a good analogy. One has lived a full life and should be respected by the rest of the family, the other hasn't even begun being 'alive' yet by nearly any definition. I also have to contend that a mistake isn't a good enough reason, when we have an education system that encourages mistakes to happen.
 

Foxi4

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It's not a good analogy. One has lived a full life and should be respected by the rest of the family, the other hasn't even begun being 'alive' yet by nearly any definition. I also have to contend that a mistake isn't a good enough reason, when we have an education system that encourages mistakes to happen.
So, in your mind, "life experience" and "respect" is what grants personhood and the right to live, it's not simply a factor of being human? That's very interesting. With all due respect, the life of an unresponsive elderly man with severe dementia and the life of a child in the womb is not that much different, but that's besides the point. The point is that if you allow anyone and everyone to have abortions then they are not going to be rare by definition, which seems to violate your initial declaration of intent. That is, unless "Safe, legal and rare" *isn't* what you're aiming at and what you actually want is "Safe and legal", which you can freely admit if you want. You can keep blaming the education system for encouraging mistakes, but I can assure you - unwanted pregnancies are a much, much older problem than the education system and they're primarily caused by lack of responsible behaviour of the participants, not a lack of understanding of the repercussions. Fortunately, I was told by reliable sources that women are now on a "Sex Strike" until they can secure their "right to choose", which should reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the foreseeable future as they embrace the new abstinence lifestyle. Lord almighty, you keep talking about this as if people were getting pregnant accidentally, and en masse. Women are not trees, they don't get pregnant because a stray gust of wind blew some pollen on them, it takes a little bit of effort to get there. Try as you may, you will not convince me that they were blissfully unaware of the possible consequences of their actions.
 

notimp

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It's not going to be a terribly effective element when the result is a statement tacitly condoning the abortion of children.
If I would want effective, I'd call out 'them are killing our babies' doesnt get more effective than that. ;)

Arguing is a process. :) You win some, you loose some. In the end, you hopefully dont get rid of abortions as societies. (You see what I did there? ;) )

Part of that even goes together with the percieved image of motherhood, and the role of a mother in society. There are more abortions in cities, there are east/west gaps.
(https://www.thelocal.de/20080605/12291)

All kinds of stuff that is there and shouldnt be. :) But still, getting rid of them turns out to be more harmful to societies at large.


Here is another angle.

In China, a male human being simply was worth more. So by some miracle of rural something, something (no one looked too close) they actually got to the highest (not sure if true, might be india) ;) male/female disparity in people reaching adult age. (Kind of like 60/40.)

Now what?

You need rule of absolute power, because some people in your societies will be freaking unhappy. :) In india they are dealing with mass incidences of group rape - and cant do anything about it. They really cant. Also they are looking away on purpose, but they really cant.

And lets say - everything goes well, and we are all pro life, suddenly - population exposion. Chinas first problem. One child policies. Forced abortions. People going to jail... Just so you prevent civil wars.

Of course - if god is great, and has a higher plan - none of this matters. Except for saving babies. (Because the church told us so. ;))
 
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