New Abortion Law Wave

cots · May 20, 2019

So we're seeing a lot of press coverage over the entire abortion issue lately due to some states outlawing the practice. I see no problem with this. I mean, if you're protesting to protect a tree why not protect a human life? If you are having sexual relationships then your are usually taking the risk of becoming pregnant. Not ready to be a parent - keep your pants on. Of course, there is the minority of people who are impregnated against their own will. Rape sucks, but murder is murder. Rape usually doesn't result in the baby being mis-figured or deformed (which is the case if someone in your immediate gene pool - which happens in even less of the situations). So is the murder justified in these cases? I don't think murder can be justified. Murder is murder. However, I do see Trump's point of view saying that Alabama's Law (which outlaws abortion in all cases except when a mother's life is in danger). It's a lose-lose situation in that case and I'm not a women nor have ever been in the position where if I give birth I might die so I can't really assume to tell anyone else anything about that. Just something inside of me tells me that killing babies is not right.

I know that the majority of abortions don't fit into the minority categories so I'm relieved that there will be less overall needless death, but if democrats really cared about only the minority then why is it allowable to cry about the majority of the popular vote in our last election? It's not supposed to be the Governments job to tell a mother what do to with her baby, but since we accept the Governments decisions that regulate most of our lives already I don't see any harm in saving a life. If money is an issue then society shouldn't abandon the kid (which is what the parent shouldn't do to begin with - the parents decided to have sex and should raise the child).

We already fail children in so many ways, but at least give them a fighting chance! Murder is murder. I'm glad these laws are being passed.

Here is what our President said about the issue ...

Days after Alabama’s government passed a near-total ban on abortion, President Donald Trump and other prominent Republican lawmakers are staking out their more lenient positions on the issue. Saturday night Trump sent out a series of tweets explaining his stance on reproductive rights while warning that Republicans will suffer if the party cannot get on the same page.

“I am strongly Pro-Life, with the three exceptions — Rape, Incest and protecting the Life of the mother — the same position taken by Ronald Reagan,” he wrote. “We must stick together and Win for Life in 2020. If we are foolish and do not stay UNITED as one, all of our hard fought gains for Life can, and will, rapidly disappear!”

Alabama’s ban, which was signed into law by the state’s governor Wednesday, features only one of the three exceptions the president favors: It only allows for abortions if the pregnant person’s life is at risk, and has no exceptions for cases of rape or incest.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...-alabama-abortion-law-rape-incest-life-danger

BiggieCheese · May 20, 2019

It’s all fun and games and “stickin’ it to the libs” until a teenage girl’s rotten corpse is found in an apartment because she tried to abort her rapist dad’s son by herself, only to bleed to death in the process.

Kunty · May 20, 2019

I think the new laws are disgusting. No one has the right to force someone to carry a child if they don't want to.

kuwanger · May 20, 2019

To start with, let me begin with I'm against abortion, but I'm more against making abortion illegal. I have a similar view about drugs, alcohol, etc. Having said that:

cots said:
I know that the majority of abortions don't fit into the minority categories so I'm relieved that there will be less overall needless death, but if democrats really cared about only the minority then why is it allowable to cry about the majority of the popular vote in our last election?

Democrats don't care about only the minority in any situation. That's a non-sequitur. Just like the point of a popular vote. It's also a non-sequitur to the point. If you're so concerned about needless death, why aren't you concerned about needless life that's neglected? Meaningfully that's more of an issue that no one wants to really deal with.

cots said:
It's not supposed to be the Governments job to tell a mother what do to with her baby, but since we accept the Governments decisions that regulate most of our lives already I don't see any harm in saving a life.

And so the moralizers banned alcohol. We saw how well that worked out.

cots said:
If money is an issue then society shouldn't abandon the kid (which is what the parent shouldn't do to begin with - the parents decided to have sex and should raise the child).

As I stated in another thread, radically change the way in which adoption works. Make it a standard, relatively quick and unrevocable transfer of guardianship. Allow it at any age. Investigate more into all areas of abuse upon children, including neglect. Push for better contraception use--those like injections and sterilization. Encourage everyone to have a planned parenthood. Stop pushing the "keep your pants on" mantra--sexless marriages aren't a reasonable standard to expect from people.

orangy57 · May 20, 2019

I'm pro choice because it has LITERALLY nothing to do with us. We're guys, we don't have a uterus to plop babies out of, so why should it be our decision? Also you're not killing babies, it's literally the equivalent of removing a parasite until it's over 21 weeks old. I swear you all are like "life is precious oh how sweet a little baby" until it's born without a loving family that can't even afford to take care of the thing, in which case you guys couldn't give a single flying fuck about them. It's better to have a """"""living thing"""""" gone than give it an awful life. Also you said that "something inside you tells you that killing babies isn't right" yet forcing a woman to give birth to a child after she's been raped is fine to you? You literally make me sick, the world would be better if you were aborted too.

BiggieCheese · May 20, 2019

Orangy57 said:
I'm pro choice because it has LITERALLY nothing to do with us. We're guys, we don't have a uterus to plop babies out of, so why should it be our decision? Also you're not killing babies, it's literally the equivalent of removing a parasite until it's over 21 weeks old. I swear you all are like "life is precious oh how sweet a little baby" until it's born without a loving family that can't even afford to take care of the thing, in which case you guys couldn't give a single flying fuck about them. It's better to have a """"""living thing"""""" gone than give it an awful life. Also you said that "something inside you tells you that killing babies isn't right" yet forcing a woman to give birth to a child after she's been raped is fine to you? You literally make me sick

^ Pretty much this except for the dig (which i removed from the quote) at the very end

Jayro · May 20, 2019

cots said:
Murder is murder.

I'm sure glad abortions aren't murder.

chrisrlink · May 20, 2019

dude do you know how incest screws up a baby created by this? ot's not only morally disgusting but the child could have serious health issues like down syndrome and what if a 10 year old girl got raped and impregnated? (Puberty can happen earlier you know sometimes as soon as 8 in girls) people don't think and pulls laws out of their ass, if anything needs to be aborted it's the entire government it's a corrupt society

cots · May 20, 2019

Orangy57 said:
I'm pro choice because it has LITERALLY nothing to do with us. We're guys, we don't have a uterus to plop babies out of, so why should it be our decision? Also you're not killing babies, it's literally the equivalent of removing a parasite until it's over 21 weeks old.

So, we should put the well being of a soulless, heartless non-thinking tree over the life of an unborn child? You're right, it's not my decision nor is it yours. If being a women and you get pregnant and kill your baby then that's your choice and you'll have to live with being a murderer for the rest of your life. That's something I don't want to be a part of and since democrats support big Government and the result is these kinds of laws and control over us I am being forced to make a decision regardless and I chose life. If it were up to me we'd save the trees and the children.

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chrisrlink said:
dude do you know how incest screws up a baby created by this? ot's not only morally disgusting but the child could have serious health issues like down syndrome and what if a 10 year old girl got raped and impregnated? (Puberty can happen earlier you know sometimes as soon as 8 in girls) people don't think and pulls laws out of their ass, if anything needs to be aborted it's the entire government it's a corrupt society

A very low minority of cases would involve this circumstance and it would be sad, but I rather the child have a chance than just "lets kill it as it might end up with deformations". Granted, not all babies born from incest have serious health issues and a lot of children born from non-incest related pregnancies do.

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kuwanger said:
Democrats don't care about only the minority in any situation. That's a non-sequitur. Just like the point of a popular vote. It's also a non-sequitur to the point. If you're so concerned about needless death, why aren't you concerned about needless life that's neglected? Meaningfully that's more of an issue that no one wants to really deal with.

I do care both about the unborn child and the mother and it should be her decision whether or not she should commit murder, but this is what we get from having the Government control every aspect of our lives so it makes it, in part, my decision also. This is why I'm glad that I chose life. We shouldn't be neglecting the mother or the child and in some cases mothers do decide to have the baby and take the risk and die in the process, but in their minds it was worth saving their child (and if you're going to go with putting the children first and it's all about the children and our future generations than you may agree with this point of view).

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kuwanger said:
As I stated in another thread, radically change the way in which adoption works. Make it a standard, relatively quick and unrevocable transfer of guardianship. Allow it at any age. Investigate more into all areas of abuse upon children, including neglect. Push for better contraception use--those like injections and sterilization. Encourage everyone to have a planned parenthood. Stop pushing the "keep your pants on" mantra--sexless marriages aren't a reasonable standard to expect from people.

These sound like good ideas that should include not having sex as the result of such between a man and a women can result in a baby. I never mentioned anything about marriages either. If you don't want to raise a child then don't produce one. I don't think lacking the proper resources should be an excuse as lots of poor people have children that grow up into fine adults.

Xzi · May 20, 2019

"Party of small government" wants to dictate how all ~150 million women in this country manage their sex lives. More than a bit ironic. Also unconstitutional, but it's not like Republicans have let that document slow them down since Trump was elected.

Deleted User · May 20, 2019

The biggest things I see touted concerning this are the extremes, which seem to be used to justify all of it. I think that part is rather silly and unjustified. The big issue here is whether or not people seem to believe if what is unborn is actually a child. If you say it's not, you don't have to deal with the fact that it's murder. If you say it is, then you have to deal with that, and no one honestly wants to murder a baby.

I myself am against abortion 100%, though I've gained some new insight from this push. Rape and incest being the minority of the cases doesn't justify the whole of it, but it's also important to think about the mothers of children who aren't being supported as well as the children in foster care and, well, the homeless children. I don't know a whole lot of what goes down in that area, so whatever the facts are, I can't state 'em. But if there aren't programs in place for them to get what they need as well, that's also wrong. Yet, the wrongdoing in one area does not justify the other. I think if we're going to be honest about all of this, we need to see things for what they are and not use one issue to justify the other.

PityOnU · May 20, 2019

I don't think anyone "wants" to get an abortion.

If we lived in a perfectly lawful, level-headed world then of course it would make sense to ban abortions as they are certainly a morally grey area.

Unfortunately, dumb-decisions and evil acts do exist, along with medical issues, so the reality is that abortions are a necessary evil. Indeed evil, but unfortunately necessary.

Banning them outright is a very short-sighted decision.

cots · May 20, 2019

Kyouken said:
The biggest things I see touted concerning this are the extremes, which seem to be used to justify all of it.

Democrats usually take use a really small horrible example that rarely ever happens and try to use it to gain an emotional response as a control tactic when in all reality these things happen at such a low rate and also aren't they always talking about "the children and our future and we need to be looking our for our kids"? I don't see how killing them before they are born fits into this logical thinking pattern.

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PityOnU said:
I don't think anyone "wants" to get an abortion.

Even mothers that want to get one at the time usually come to regret the decision. I mean, it's not a risk free procedure and it's a really hard choice to make. I personally knew someone who had one that never got over it. I doubt anyone that has one ever will.

Xzi · May 20, 2019

Kyouken said:
I think if we're going to be honest about all of this, we need to see things for what they are and not use one issue to justify the other.

Good luck getting Republican lawmakers to understand sex ed and/or biology. This wave of anti-intellectualism that's responsible for flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers is just as responsible for these draconian abortion laws. This shit never would've passed if there was a single doctor or scientist involved in the process.

cots said:
I agree that it's really non of their business and this is a prime example of what happens when we give up or freedoms. Each time a new law is passed we lose another freedom. Democrats wanted big Government so they got it. Keep voting blue and this will only get worse.

The fuck are you smoking? Electing pro-choice Democrats leads to medieval anti-abortion laws passed by Republicans? I don't think anyone is buying that argument. The right-wing has extremely authoritarian tendencies which have to be kept in check by the left. If you vote in too many Republicans for too long, your state turns in to Alabama. Dead last in the nation in nearly all standard of living metrics.

cots · May 20, 2019

Xzi said:
The fuck are you smoking? Electing pro-choice Democrats leads to medieval anti-abortion laws passed by Republicans? I don't think anyone is buying that argument. The right-wing has extremely authoritarian tendencies which have to be kept in check by the left. If you vote in too many Republicans for too long, your state turns in to Alabama. Dead last in the nation in nearly all standard of living metrics.

I'm not saying that the Republicans are right for abusing their power, but this power was given to them by expanding the Government which is what the Democrats are responsible for. Keep giving them more and more power over your lives and shit will only get worse.

Xzi · May 20, 2019

cots said:
I'm not saying that the Republicans are right for abusing their power, but this power was given to them by expanding the Government which is what the Democrats are responsible for. Keep giving them more and more power over your lives and shit will only get worse.

GWB and Dick Cheney expanded the power of the executive branch more than any administration before them. It's just plain untrue that Republicans aren't willing to expand the government or their own power in order to accomplish their authoritarian goals. They've never waited for Democrats to do it for them.

kuwanger · May 20, 2019

cots said:
this is what we get from having the Government control every aspect of our lives so it makes it, in part, my decision also.

No. If you have a problem with the government being too involved in your life, you don't turn around and use the government to become too involved in other people's lives.

cots said:
These sound like good ideas that should include not having sex as the result of such between a man and a women can result in a baby. I never mentioned anything about marriages either. If you don't want to raise a child then don't produce one.

Of course you didn't. You merely implied that abortions are chiefly the byproduct of unmarried women sleeping around. Yet the statistics aren't there, AFAIK*. The statistics that *do* exist are of unplanned pregnancies of which a substantial number are from married couples. Most couples aren't interested in having more than a few children at most. Short of a complete hysterectomy/castration, AFAIK no other form of contraception is 100% guaranteed to not produce children. Ergo, you're either recommending that most married people have hysterectomies/castrations at around age 25 or that most marriages be sexless.

* I would admit that it would seem to logically follow that those women who are unmarried who realize they're not in a position to raise a child would be more inclined to abort a child than a married couple with an unplanned pregnancies who would be more willing to birth and raise an unwanted child. The only reasonable counter to this would be to (1) incentivize more marriages, (2) incentivize women birthing children for adoption, and/or (3) pushing even stronger laws for forcing child support payments. (3) is bad because it subverts men's rights. (2) is bad because it is literally paying people to breed. (1) is bad because clearly government shouldn't be in the business of incentivizing marriage. Basically, I don't see how any other avenue is in any serious way less of a social ill.

D34DL1N3R · May 20, 2019

Republicans:

Muslims - BAN!!!
Immigrants = BAN!!!
Abortion - BAN!!!
Gay Marriage - BAN!!!
Guns - BANS DON'T WORK!!!

Xzi · May 20, 2019

Of course, the real test is yet to come. None of these anti-abortion laws are on solid legal footing or present a legitimate challenge to the settled law of Roe v Wade, so the Supreme Court would be wise to simply not give these cases a hearing. If they do decide to let this shitshow proceed, then we pretty much know that the majority of justices are bought and paid for, and the result is likely to be 5-4 in favor of turning the US into 'A Handmaid's Tale' IRL. We hate Middle Eastern far-right theocracies so much that we're apparently trying to become one.

cots · May 20, 2019

kuwanger said:
No. If you have a problem with the government being too involved in your life, you don't turn around and use the government to become too involved in other people's lives.

Well, as a normal citizen it's sort of forced on you. If you're asked to vote you'll have to make a decision one way or the other. If there was a vote to start getting rid of laws and reducing the size of the Government I'd definitely vote for that. For the Republican party - they shouldn't be doing what you wrote. Since it is forced on me I choose life over murder.

Xzi said:
GWB and Dick Cheney expanded the power of the executive branch more than any administration before them. It's just plain untrue that Republicans aren't willing to expand the government or their own power in order to accomplish their authoritarian goals. They've never waited for Democrats to do it for them.

I still think the Patriot act is bullshit. Larger Government isn't inclusive to Democrats, but it's one of their main points on their agenda and not so much with the Republicans. I think we all should be getting rid of laws and voting to stop the law making processes all together.

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D34DL1N3R said:
Republicans:
Guns - BANS DON'T WORK!!!

Banning guns would work in giving the Government almost complete control over us and then they could force us to do a lot worse than just outlawing abortions. Gun bans also wouldn't stop violence as guns aren't the only tools required for violence to take place. On the flip side outlawing abortions also will not stop them from happening, but if you're caught having one you'll get arrested, but that arrest won't result in what would happen if they took our guns away from us.

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