Hacking Key Hypocrisy

blahblah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
1,132
Trophies
0
Age
35
XP
1,472
Country
United States
I believe it is a huge part in evaluating prosecutorial discretion. However if a prosecutor does decide to prosecute you, the reasons don't matter. Also, it is both a criminal and civil case. Nintendo could sue at any time for over it, for any reason. Does anyoen think nintendo cares about intent when the software is used downstream to pirate their system? NOPE.

The issue here isn't one of black letter law. The vast majority of reverse engineering operates in a gray area where prosecution could occur, but will not for <long list of reasons>. Console reverse engineering does so too, but it's not any more shady than what we see with iOS, where companies with million dollar valuations are buying stolen Apple prototypes from China as the level of access said prototypes provide is essential to the job these companies do. Zero prosecutions. Zero have occurred, zero will occur.

Nintendo isn't going to be the one to risk getting a chunk of DMCA slapped down by an appeals court. Companies do not push their luck on this specific issue for a very good reason. There are better ways to deal with the piracy than to make every security researcher (and associated organizations) your blood enemy.

TX is not Atmosphere. TX sells warez for money. TX makes products intended to enable piracy. That's everything.
 
Last edited by blahblah,

blawar

Developer
OP
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
1,708
Trophies
1
Age
40
XP
4,311
Country
United States
This was well said and I would like to add on to this - intent is essential for criminal prosecution. Xecuter does not care about this because they operate out of legal gray area zones. They will tell that where the products are made and distributed they are legal. This is true.

Intent is only a factor is the statute lists mens rea as an element. The DMCA has no such means rea element. All Nintendo / State has to prove, is that you intended to do the actions which is easily proved by atmosphre posting the public keys and sources on their github.
 

iriez

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
549
Trophies
0
Age
48
Website
www.xbins.org
XP
1,857
Country
United States
Also, why now? Since XCI emulation Nintendo certs/keys were included afaik..

Included in plaintext? Or in their encrypted blob? If in plain text then I would say you have a valid point.... though I would like to see some proof :)

Either way however gbatemp won't host products in which there have been license violations. Since xecuter already falls under this umbrella gbatemp won't host it on that basis. So including private keys in plain text is just adding even more reason for enforcement.
 
Last edited by iriez,

blawar

Developer
OP
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
1,708
Trophies
1
Age
40
XP
4,311
Country
United States
Included in plaintext? Or in their encrypted blob? If in plain text then I would say you have a valid point.... though I would like to see some proof :)

You seem to be confused, noone has accused SX of embedding the root key in plain text. SX is accused of storing the root key in an encrypted blob. Ultimately, any key that is loaded will be converted to plaintext eventually. Noone can just open up SX's files with a hex editor and extract the key. Ironically, it is also illegal to RE SX.
 

blahblah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
1,132
Trophies
0
Age
35
XP
1,472
Country
United States
You seem to be confused, noone has accused SX of embedding the root key in plain text. SX is accused of storing the root key in an encrypted blob. Ultimately, any key that is loaded will be converted to plaintext eventually. Noone can just open up SX's files with a hex editor and extract the key. Ironically, it is also illegal to RE SX.

Your lack of understanding of the law is hampering you again. What's next from you, reverse engineering malware is illegal?

Yes, everything about SXOS is encrypted, as part of their DRM. But DRM is not a thing a criminal entity can hide behind to prevent reverse engineering. The law is not computer code.
 

SimonMKWii

Professional Idiot
Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2017
Messages
666
Trophies
0
Location
Melbourne, Victoria
XP
2,760
Country
Australia
Atmosphere is a re-implementation of system modules based on reverse engineering.
Therefore, the key seeds used in the original modules must be included for its function to be identical to the original.
In contrast, SX OS is different; its intent quite obviously being for piracy, therefore the motive for including 'tsec_root_key_01' was obviously malicious.
 

blawar

Developer
OP
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
1,708
Trophies
1
Age
40
XP
4,311
Country
United States
Atmosphere is a re-implementation of system modules based on reverse engineering.
Therefore, the key seeds used in the original modules must be included for its function to be identical to the original.
In contrast, SX OS is different; its intent quite obviously being for piracy, therefore the motive for including 'tsec_root_key_01' was obviously malicious.

No one is saying atmosphere doesn't need the keys. I'm sure I need that million dollars in the bank for my sex change too. Doeesn't mean its not illegal if I take it.

2wc2ji.jpg

credit @AnalogMan
 

iriez

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
549
Trophies
0
Age
48
Website
www.xbins.org
XP
1,857
Country
United States
Hey guys just wanted to say I've updated my original post with a screenshot from the owner of the site agreeing to remove sx os and other xecuter software on the basis that it is violating licenses.

So all of this is kind of bickering about nothing. Gbatemp has always had these policies in place it was just a question of how rigid they were in moderating them. The recent post was just re communicating these policies to the community.

Essentially enforcement is about licensee complaints. There were some and so therefore those policies have now been enforced.
 
Joined
Jan 19, 2019
Messages
755
Trophies
0
XP
946
Country
United Kingdom
I'm not speaking for GBAtemp now. But dumping keys with example lockpick is totally legal inside the European Union. It's your product and you can do what you want with it.
So I'm no law expert but this falls under the same as iOS jailbreaking. Where it's except under the DMCA and EUCD.
So if the temp is hosted in europe then the lockpick keys are legal!
 

FAST6191

Techromancer
Editorial Team
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Messages
36,798
Trophies
3
XP
28,284
Country
United Kingdom
In contrast, SX OS is different; its intent quite obviously being for piracy, therefore the motive for including 'tsec_root_key_01' was obviously malicious.

As in if they left them out they would still be able to run all the homebrew code they liked?
 

blawar

Developer
OP
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
1,708
Trophies
1
Age
40
XP
4,311
Country
United States
Hey guys just wanted to say I've updated my original post with a screenshot from the owner of the site agreeing to remove sx os and other xecuter software on the basis that it is violating licenses.

So all of this is kind of bickering about nothing. Gbatemp has always had these policies in place it was just a question of how rigid they were in moderating them. The recent post was just re communicating these policies to the community.

Essentially enforcement is about licensee complaints. There were some and so therefore those policies have now been enforced.

copyright holders cannot complain about a link though? It is not illegal to link to SX. They dont have to do it, they are choosing to do it.
 

Meepers55

Flintstones Regular
Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
318
Trophies
0
XP
949
Country
United States
It really is arguing over nothing. SX update posts will still happen, there just won't be a link on said posts until TX finds a way around the whole key thing (which they probably will eventually). SX users already know where to download their updates anyways, so I fail to see how this is such a big deal.
 

iriez

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
549
Trophies
0
Age
48
Website
www.xbins.org
XP
1,857
Country
United States
No one is saying atmosphere doesn't need the keys. I'm sure I need that million dollars in the bank for my sex change too. Doeesn't mean its not illegal if I take it.

2wc2ji.jpg

credit @AnalogMan

By your response it's apparent you didn't understand his reasoning. He made a legal argument. He essentially nullified your entire reasoning on the subject.

As previously stated, intent matters when it comes to prosecutorial action and success.
 

blahblah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
1,132
Trophies
0
Age
35
XP
1,472
Country
United States
copyright holders cannot complain about a link though? It is not illegal to link to SX. They dont have to do it, they are choosing to do it.

Copyright holders complain about 'links' on Google.com all the time. They get them removed all the time. Please, please stop talking about the law when you have absolutely no understanding of it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AveSatanas

blawar

Developer
OP
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
1,708
Trophies
1
Age
40
XP
4,311
Country
United States
Copyright holders complain about 'links' on Google.com all the time. They get them removed all the time. Please, please stop talking about the law when you have absolutely no understanding of it.

I know exactly about the linking shit with good. The big issue google has, is the images search. Its not a link if they displaying the image on the user's PC. They are actually using the file, so hot linking images is bad.

The other issue, was google taking "news excerpts" from news websites. This was not about links, this was about google copying copyrighted text blurbs and displaying it in their search results.

Lots of armchair lawyers on reddit it seems. Source: am one.
 

blahblah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
1,132
Trophies
0
Age
35
XP
1,472
Country
United States
I know exactly about the linking shit with good. The big issue google has, is the images search. Its not a link if they displaying the image on the user's PC. They are actually using the file, so hot linking images is bad.

The other issue, was google taking "news excerpts" from news websites. This was not about links, this was about google copying copyrighted text blurbs and displaying it in their search results.

Lots of armchair lawyers on reddit it seems. Source: am one.

I wasn't talking about image search. Google Text Search gets take down notices all the time and complies with them, as they must.

I also was not talking about news.

Please educate yourself on some basic level before speculating as to how things work.
 

iriez

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
549
Trophies
0
Age
48
Website
www.xbins.org
XP
1,857
Country
United States
copyright holders cannot complain about a link though? It is not illegal to link to SX. They dont have to do it, they are choosing to do it.

that is correct a site will enforce its policies not because it has to but because it wants to maintain consistency.

Gbatemp in all likelihood will not get sued or have legal action taken against it for hosting xecuter. But they might receive legal action for other matters, and how they choose to discriminate is important when it comes to prosecution.

This is why Facebook is in so much trouble. Because they chose to moderate specific things and not others. There was a really good radiolab on the subject. Listen to it if you want to understand the legal complexity.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/post-no-evil
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ev1l0rd

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
    SylverReZ @ SylverReZ: @salazarcosplay, Morning