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How do you feel about abortion?

duwen

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Personally, I'm pro-choice.
Accidents happen, and no one should feel forced (or at least obliged) to radically alter their life for a long period of time (whether that be just for the duration of the pregnancy or for a lifetime) due to a 'mishap' - or worse, a pregnancy from being raped.
 

chaoskagami

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My opinion is as follows: It's only murder if the kid could survive if detached or if it's too developed to safely abort. Otherwise, it's simply a parasite and part of the mother's body. Just like it's my own choice if I wanted to chop off my own arm, it's the mother's choice if she does so. Because at that point, it IS her body and the kid is a parasite that's sapping nutrition and causing a slew of inconveniences.

Aside from that, murder is "killing another person." I think that an undeveloped half-organism that has neither a functional body nor brain (and therefore, lacks any form of conscious perception) fails to qualify as a "person." This is less about intelligence and more about completeness. A half-assembled car can't be driven, right? It's the same thing. A half-assembled person isn't capable of intelligence or operating as a person.

Also, if a woman were raped, why should she have to raise that kid? That's just fucking stupid. You're saying essentially that that woman should be denied her entire career because of an asshole. Just no. If you're one of those freaks who considers this case to be acceptable, then you're a rape apologist and should be ashamed of yourself.

During the time period in which abortions were illegal, people had abortions done illegally by back-alley doctors, and people died due to inadequate safety in the procedure (read: coat hangers.) So regardless of legality, people will get abortions. The question is more do you want adequate medical treatment or do you want people dropping dead from quack doctors.

It's because we see them as inferior in both intelligence and morality. If we saw them equal then I doubt we would keep killing them. Babies and especially fetuses have far fewer intelligence and no morality.

At this point we have to realize we have a bias toward humans, and that biases are not based in fact. And what's not based in fact should not become law. If we are fine with unintelligent life dying, then we have to look past our biases and accept abortion which is the same thing. If we don't accept abortion, we should not accept killing rats or octopi, much less dumber animals.

Doing otherwise would be hypocritical.

While we're at it, let's also stop killing plants - I mean, they feel pain after all. What does that leave us with? Salt? We'd dry up. Test tube burgers? Scratch that, we shouldn't be eating the byproduct of scientists playing god. Fruits that naturally drop off trees? But wait, oh my god, fruits are the unborn child of a tree so that's eating babies. Aaaaah!

My point to this line of nonsense: Humans being omnivores has nothing to do with abortion.
 
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YamiZee

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My point to this line of nonsense: Humans being omnivores has nothing to do with abortion.
What? I never said anything about being an omnivore. Also theres no proof plants feel pain, and even if they did, they are on the low end of the concious spectrum. Insects are a little higher...etc.
 

the_randomizer

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Here's my unpopular take on it, unless there is a legit empirical threat of human life, as in, the mother is 100% guaranteed to die in childbirth, and as long as it is the mother's decision, not pressured by asshole government intervention or douchebag lover, then and only then should it be made. But also, if it is known well before late term, like say, within the first trimester and the mother is a victim of rape, and adoption is not an option, they are to use their best judgment in this case. Consult with competent medical professionals. But if you really want to know my opinion, here's what I have to say:

NY Governor Andrew M. Cuomo and his late-term abortion bill can both fuck off.
 
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FAST6191

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lol bias confirmation much? No wonder you think the way you do.
From what I saw your video link was discussing some specifics of the plaintiff in the initial supreme court case* (the lady in which has gone on to variously retract her positions in later years, and be somewhat active in the anti abortion sphere). Subtle Demise's position was however that even if the test case was flawed in the way described that the underlying legal logic is still valid. As nothing on the video was relevant to that, and such a thing was a valid enough assumption to make and stated, then I am not seeing the problem.

*never mind that various states already had things on the books prior to it, as did many other countries of similar legal traditions/philosophies.
 
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Sir_Mix_A_Lot

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I'm not a fan. I'm all for a woman's right to choose, but I don't like the idea of allowing late term abortion. But if it's a matter of life or death (or rape) for a woman, I understand it even if I don't like it.
 

comput3rus3r

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"perfectly describes a D&E “uterine evacuation” procedure. What he left out was the fact that an anesthesiologist, scrub tech, circulating nurse, and sonographer must also be present during the procedure. I’ve seen this because I was forced (in my job) to assist in a D&E. I had no idea what it was until I got to the OR room. I was told to place the ultrasound probe on the mother’s pelvis and live scan the entire procedure. I watched the baby recoil and try to hide in the top (fundus ) of her mother’s uterus as the catheter was thrust into the amniotic sac. Then I watched the clamp go in and grab her tiny leg as she writhed around in pain trying to break free. Then the doctor pulled hard until her leg was ripped from her body. She recoiled and curled herself in a tight ball. But it was no use, the clamp grabbed her arm and she struggled, a little less because she was dying, as he pulled her arm off of her body. It was hard to see by this time because I had tears rolling down my cheeks. The baby again curled into a tight ball but again had her leg ripped from her body. By now, her heartbeat had slowed significantly but she was still alive. Then the clamp grabbed her last limb and ripped it off. She wiggled and writhed around and then her heart finally stopped beating. That is when I announced that there was no more cardiac activity. The remaining body parts were removed, placenta was removed, and a final look with ultrasound revealed all products of conception were removed. I was told I could leave the room at that point. I removed the ultrasound machine from the room and went to the women’s locker room and threw up. I refused to ever take part in another one of these procedures. Everyone in that room was horrified and nothing could have prepared me for it.

If you think this is a good “choice” unfriend me now because I want nothing to do with you."
 
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osaka35

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Humans tend to equate things acting, and reacting, like humans to be humans. A worm, touched, writhes around the ground to try and get away. Is it scared? Is it fearful? Is it in pain? When you pluck a leaf off a tree, the tree "feels" it. Should we avoid plucking fruit off a tree because it could cause the tree pain? What if the tree recoiled from having its fruit plucked? These are not humans, but when we imagine what we would perceive if it was happening to us, we hurt. It's empathy. It's a good thing we can identify with others pain. But it is a pain we create inside ourselves, because we personally identify with something as being human-like.

In this case, a well-developed fetus can look, act, and react, much like the worm, much like the human, and much like most things with the equivalent to a nervous system. The further along in development, the more human-like it becomes. Generally it's only when the fetus has a functioning and viable brain do we start considering it an actual life. Before that it's still just plans for a human. Two draft blueprints smushed together, given biological parts by the mom, with plans changed every step of the way because of of the environment, until you get a viable brain, a viable human. If the brain never develops, if the brain hasn't developed, no matter how it acts or reacts, it is not a person.That's the simple definition. We are our brains.

I feel for those who identify with fetuses. They ascribe to them person-hood, they ascribe things that do not belong, and so feel empathy for it. They feel for it as if it were really a person, and so feel the pain of that loss just as greatly as if it were true. Which, frankly, must suck. that's got to be gut-wrenching and feel like a terribly immoral thing to do. Which, if it were true, would be accurate. But it's not reality. It's not how things, how our biology, actually are. It is not your fault, and it is not your burden. It's okay to let go of that guilt and responsibility. You're good.
 
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comput3rus3r

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Humans tend to equate things acting, and reacting, like humans to be humans. A worm, touched, writhes around the ground to try and get away. Is it scared? Is it fearful? Is it in pain? When you pluck a leaf off a tree, the tree "feels" it. Should we avoid plucking fruit off a tree because it could cause the tree pain? What if the tree recoiled from having its fruit plucked? These are not humans, but when we imagine what we would perceive if it was happening to us, we hurt. It's empathy. It's a good thing we can identify with others pain. But it is a pain we create inside ourselves, because we personally identify with something as being human-like.

In this case, a well-developed fetus can look, act, and react, much like the worm, much like the human, and much like most things with the equivalent to a nervous system. The further along in development, the more human-like it becomes. Generally it's only when the fetus has a functioning and viable brain do we start considering it an actual life. Before that it's still just plans for a human. Two draft blueprints smushed together, given biological parts by the mom, with plans changed every step of the way because of of the environment, until you get a viable brain, a viable human. If the brain never develops, if the brain hasn't developed, no matter how it acts or reacts, it is not a person.That's the simple definition. We are our brains.

I feel for those who identify with fetuses. They ascribe to them person-hood, they ascribe things that do not belong, and so feel empathy for it. They feel for it as if it were really a person, and so feel the pain of that loss just as greatly as if it were true. Which, frankly, must suck. that's got to be gut-wrenching and feel like a terribly immoral thing to do. Which, if it were true, would be accurate. But it's not reality. It's not how things, how our biology, actually are. It is not your fault, and it is not your burden. It's okay to let go of that guilt and responsibility. You're good.
except we're not talking about worms, we're talking about a human baby with a heartbeat a brain and a face. What sucks more is being so completely detached from reality that you think ripping a baby apart inside a womb is ok. I foresee a very sad future for you unless you develop a conscience.
 
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nashismo

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It reminds me of the atrocities commited by the Japanese and also the Koreans and Chinese to each other's. Killing babies and raping women and beheading men with swords.

All these atrocities were committed by Japanese and also Chinese, Japanese with swords and chinese killed OTHER chinese in terrible ways too but with the weapon of communism. I have seen the testimonies and they are heart breaking to the core, that is how I FEEL about abortion.
 
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osaka35

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except we're not talking about worms, we're talking about a human baby with a heartbeat a brain and a face. What sucks more is being so completely detached from reality that you think ripping a baby apart inside a womb is ok. I foresee a very sad future for you unless you develop a conscience.
The brain part is the important bit. Or did you just stop reading at some point? It's much easier to just say everyone else must be without a conscious for even possibly feeling differently than you than it is to bother trying to understand why they might actually feel the way they do. There's more to it than what you're allowing yourself to see.
 
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nashismo

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except we're not talking about worms, we're talking about a human baby with a heartbeat a brain and a face. What sucks more is being so completely detached from reality that you think ripping a baby apart inside a womb is ok. I foresee a very sad future for you unless you develop a conscience.

What these people pro-choice need is a BIG injection of REALITY and a heart that pumps in their own cold fucking chest!

Look at this testimony from a chinese survivor, this is what is all about, it made me cry, and I am like a stone these years.

 
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comput3rus3r

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The brain part is the important bit. Or did you just stop reading at some point? It's much easier to just say everyone else must be without a conscious for even possibly feeling differently than you than it is to bother trying to understand why they might actually feel the way they do. There's more to it than what you're allowing yourself to see.
well given that we disagree at a fundamental level, that being the fact that I believe In God and that I have a soul and you don't. I'm assuming you don't because the soul comes into the body at the moment of conception so you can talk about whether or not the brain is developed enough for your standards but it doesn't take away the fact that it is a person. The most obvious evidence is the fact that we both went through that stage of our lives and luckily no unconscionable person ripped us apart.
 
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codyjo

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My thoughts on this matter are best summed up a catchy tune titled "Get Dat Fetus, Kill Dat Fetus" by the modern pop legend Sextina Aquafina.

 

osaka35

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well given that we disagree at a fundamental level, that being the fact that I believe In God and that I have a soul and you don't. I'm assuming you don't because the soul comes into the body at the moment of conception so you can talk about whether or not the brain is developed enough for your standards but it doesn't take away the fact that it is a person. The most obvious evidence is the fact that we both went through that stage of our lives and luckily no unconscionable person ripped us apart.
yours is based on bronze-age understanding of reality, where the entirety of the person was in a dude's sperm, his "seed", and a woman's womb was just where it took root and flowered. did you know that's why the catholic church decided we got our soul at conception? This is a poor way to make a moral decision. To never question or think critically of it. Even those who consider themselves religious have moved past this ancient belief. I personally look at the science of today and philosophy of the matter and let reality be my guide. You can call it disagreement if you'd like, but I still feel sorry for you to shoulder that imagined burden.
 
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Xzi

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What these people pro-choice need is a BIG injection of REALITY and a heart that pumps in their own cold fucking chest!
It's pro-lifers that aren't living in reality. Rapes, unwanted pregnancies, and threats to the pregnant mother's life are all events that occur on a regular basis. These things don't go away just because you ban abortion through the law, we'd simply revert to back-alley abortions instead. Ultimately it's a necessary medical service to have available, whether you like the idea or not.
 
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