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The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

Xzi

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We can only hope that they break with tradition and completely disregard Trump's picks. Ivanka fucking Trump as world bank chief...the world economy would be in shambles within a month. She's just as vapid as her father, the only difference is she had her T&A (and chin surgery) to get her everywhere in life.

Trump recently fired Nikki Haley from another position, so I doubt he'll nominate her.
 
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Taleweaver

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Erm...I'm not really sure how this thread went from "benefits of the brexit" to "Ivanka Trump as world bank leader", but...I'm curious as to the current situation.

Yesterday, UK finally voted on May's brexit plan. A 'disagree' was expected, but apparently it had much less votes than even expected. Well...okay, than that I expected. But at least it brings one clarification: May's deal is off the table. So what remains is either a 'no deal brexit' or a 'no brexit deal'*.



The way I summarize the situation:

Grumpy men: we don't wanna be in the EU no more!
Cameron: well...if that's your thing, I promise a referendum on it.
Grumpy men: yeeeey!
<* referendum result: 52% leave, 48% remain *>
Grumpy leaders: awesome! We won. Have fun negotiating a deal. We're out of here! :D
Remaining grumpy men: oh...okay. Well...better send in Theresa May.
Other grumpy: May? But she voted remain!
First one: yup. But unlike us, she actually knows how to negotiate.
May: <*negotiates long and hard with EU leaders*>
May: here you go: the best possible brexit deal. :)
Grumpy men: naaah...we don't like it. <*vote down result*>



So really: what happens next? It's my thing to crack jokes on the situation, but that doesn't mean it's not serious. Because it is. The most interesting thing about it is that the opposition (So Jeremy Corbyn, really) isn't representing the bremainders. It's been two years in which UK politics is a freaking circus**. Sure, there might be some English people who now have more of a grudge against the EU because we don't treat you as the entitled f***s that politicians think you are. But at the same time I think a much larger group now understands that issues like border patrol, the common funding of EU projects and the Irish situation are more of a minefield than they thought when they voted to drift away from the rest of the EU***.


*I made up that pun myself. :creep:
**still a smaller circus than the USA, if that's any comfort
***the weirdest piece of irony is in migration. Migrants who want to get into the UK are apparently HOPING for a 'no deal brexit'. No...really: as border patrol tightens, there'll be longer and larger traffic jams around the border areas, which increase the chance of them climbing aboard trucks. This is so counterintuitive and strange that I'd almost say that if humor was a criteria, then these migrants BELONG in the UK.
 
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FAST6191

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You reckon she can negotiate? Most of the European leaders laughed at her, and most would say she got in the way of her negotiators (there is a reason so many of them resigned).
Also did you see the proposed deal? Not a great look that one from pretty much any of the camps there are.

I doubt she will be a fondly remembered prime minster, and her stint at the home office before was not much better and likely not regarded as bad because she got to follow Jacqui Smith.

There are doubtless some grumbly old bastards in the mix but I can't lay it all at their feet.
 

Xzi

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The way I summarize the situation:

Grumpy men: we don't wanna be in the EU no more!
Cameron: well...if that's your thing, I promise a referendum on it.
Grumpy men: yeeeey!
<* referendum result: 52% leave, 48% remain *>
Grumpy leaders: awesome! We won. Have fun negotiating a deal. We're out of here! :D
Remaining grumpy men: oh...okay. Well...better send in Theresa May.
Other grumpy: May? But she voted remain!
First one: yup. But unlike us, she actually knows how to negotiate.
May: <*negotiates long and hard with EU leaders*>
May: here you go: the best possible brexit deal. :)
Grumpy men: naaah...we don't like it. <*vote down result*>
Nailed it. I was just about to ask why people blame May for an idea that was never her own. Once the vote succeeded and all the architects of the leave campaign completely bailed on it, it should've been obvious at that point that they weren't going to be able to pull a deal from thin air that everyone would agree on. The lesson here is that you don't vote for half-baked ideas. Also that you don't bring half-baked ideas to a public vote in the first place.
 
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xpoverzion

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So since us Brits voted leave on the 23rd June, I think it's safe to say it's dominated the British political landscape with questions of hard or soft and each member of the UK seemingly developing their own comprehensive opinion of the complexities of Customs Union (THE Customs Union or A Customs Union). It most certainly has put us in the biggest post-war political crisis and instability which leaves us with a minority government being propped by the Northern Irish division of the Republican party.

Now it's been nearly two years since the vote, I'll be intrigued by what the benefits of Brexit are. I recall asking this in the original thread but really couldn't get anything substantive or cohesive. I think now's a good time to look at what the potential benefits will be. It's never left public discussion and animosity still remains, we've had a general election, accusations of undermining the will of the people and a movement to demand a vote on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal.

I'd be interested in what people's thoughts on the potential benefits would be.


The benefit of Brexit is that it gives England a chance to be it's own, autonomous, independent country, instead of just another vassel state to Israel like the United States of Jewmerica and the Jewropean Union. That's the biggest benefit of brexit that I can see.
 

SG854

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The benefit of Brexit is that it gives England a chance to be it's own, autonomous, independent country, instead of just another vassel state to Israel like the United States of Jewmerica and the Jewropean Union. That's the biggest benefit of brexit that I can see.
Can you go into more detail about the Jews.
 

Xzi

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The benefit of Brexit is that it gives England a chance to be it's own, autonomous, independent country, instead of just another vassel state to Israel like the United States of Jewmerica and the Jewropean Union. That's the biggest benefit of brexit that I can see.
In other words, it's reactionary racism and xenophobia leading the UK to make bad decisions recently. Exactly like America.
 

AmandaRose

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In other words, it's reactionary racism and xenophobia leading the UK to make bad decisions recently. Exactly like America.
Please don't tar the whole of the UK with that racism shit. Both my home country of Scotland and Northern Ireland voted unanimously to remain it was England and Wales that decided to leave. As England on its own has way more people than the rest of the UK combined that is how we now find ourselves in the shit we are currently in.
 
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Xzi

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Please don't tar the whole of the UK with that racism shit. Both my home country of Scotland and Northern Ireland voted unanimously to remain it was England and Wales that decided to leave. As England on its own has way more people than the rest of the UK combined that is how we now find ourselves in the shit we are currently in.
Well no, when I say that I mean roughly a third of the population, but a vocal third that also votes consistently. Again, very similar to America in that regard.
 

Taleweaver

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Simple: They should go back to Europe again. They cannot survive without Europe at all.
Hmm... That's a pretty interesting thing to say. They can certainly SURVIVE without the EU. There's industry, import and export wealth and infrastructure. There's no reason they can't quit the EU. I mean...it certainly has flaws but it's no prison or something. The problem is mostly that the brexiteer leaders are a bunch of twats. Ironically enough with the exception of May, who had the unthankfull job of attempting to lead a pack of monkeys.

Okay, and perhaps she's also to blame for the unrealistic vision on the future The problems were real and never properly addressed, let alone solved. Perhaps if the UK gave in on things like giving northern Ireland back to Ireland then there was some hope for negotiation. But the brexiteers never wanted to give up all the comfort that the union provided.
 

FAST6191

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Nailed it. I was just about to ask why people blame May for an idea that was never her own. Once the vote succeeded and all the architects of the leave campaign completely bailed on it, it should've been obvious at that point that they weren't going to be able to pull a deal from thin air that everyone would agree on. The lesson here is that you don't vote for half-baked ideas. Also that you don't bring half-baked ideas to a public vote in the first place.

She was the one that triggered article 50 without a plan in place ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39422353 ). For as much of a farce as the initial campaign was they still had a chance to thrash things out before even starting on the path so trying to paint her as an inheritor of a poisoned chalice/rudderless ship is not going to be an easy thing, and that is before we consider how she has acquitted herself during it all and the utter nonsense that was the proposed deal.

Perhaps if the UK gave in on things like giving northern Ireland back to Ireland then there was some hope for negotiation.
What? There was never any talk of doing that and the merest suggestion of that would probably get most UK politicians of any stripe thrown out on their arse (if we are going to do the Belgium example it would probably be on par with one suggesting on a whim that Flanders region the Netherlands). There was talk of the nature of the border between them, and them not wanting to either create a third party
 
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Taleweaver

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What? There was never any talk of doing that and the merest suggestion of that would probably get most UK politicians of any stripe thrown out on their arse (if we are going to do the Belgium example it would probably be on par with one suggesting on a whim that Flanders region the Netherlands). There was talk of the nature of the border between them, and them not wanting to either create a third party
That's exactly the point: it never was brought to the table. I know how radical the idea is (and yes, your comparison is spot on*), but it is the logical conclusion. Like it or not, but as it is, the UK borders the EU (in Ireland). From what I understand from a historical perspective, a hard border leads to tensions with the local people (a local paper quoted someone even saying that it'd "threaten the peace", but I personally believe this is mostly scare mongering). And a soft border is also out of the question because that won't stop people coming into the UK through there.

So...yeah. I have no idea what "stripe thrown out on their arse" means, but if it's akin to a tantrum...then let them have it. Perhaps then they'll understand that there needs to be a SOLUTION rather than all this "I don't like this" and denial of responsibility.





*totally off-topic: the few instances someone brings up that Flanders should be independent "because of Wallonia", I always reply that we better join the Netherlands. Thus far, nobody has seen this coming, and I've got plenty of arguments why that'd be better for us. It's not that I want either...I just don't believe for a second we'd be "better off if we did it ourselves".
 
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kumikochan

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That's exactly the point: it never was brought to the table. I know how radical the idea is (and yes, your comparison is spot on*), but it is the logical conclusion. Like it or not, but as it is, the UK borders the EU (in Ireland). From what I understand from a historical perspective, a hard border leads to tensions with the local people (a local paper quoted someone even saying that it'd "threaten the peace", but I personally believe this is mostly scare mongering). And a soft border is also out of the question because that won't stop people coming into the UK through there.

So...yeah. I have no idea what "stripe thrown out on their arse" means, but if it's akin to a tantrum...then let them have it. Perhaps then they'll understand that there needs to be a SOLUTION rather than all this "I don't like this" and denial of responsibility.





*totally off-topic: the few instances someone brings up that Flanders should be independent "because of Wallonia", I always reply that we better join the Netherlands. Thus far, nobody has seen this coming, and I've got plenty of arguments why that'd be better for us. It's not that I want either...I just don't believe for a second we'd be "better off if we did it ourselves".
Ugh no, hope we never have to join the netherlands. Netherlands is 2 expensive to live. Almost the entire country lives in social housing and healthcare is around 1200 euro a year instead of the 50 euro in belgium. There's a reason why dutch people immigrate to Belgium but mostly not the other way around.
 

FAST6191

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That's exactly the point: it never was brought to the table. I know how radical the idea is (and yes, your comparison is spot on*), but it is the logical conclusion. Like it or not, but as it is, the UK borders the EU (in Ireland). From what I understand from a historical perspective, a hard border leads to tensions with the local people (a local paper quoted someone even saying that it'd "threaten the peace", but I personally believe this is mostly scare mongering). And a soft border is also out of the question because that won't stop people coming into the UK through there.

So...yeah. I have no idea what "stripe thrown out on their arse" means, but if it's akin to a tantrum...then let them have it. Perhaps then they'll understand that there needs to be a SOLUTION rather than all this "I don't like this" and denial of responsibility.





*totally off-topic: the few instances someone brings up that Flanders should be independent "because of Wallonia", I always reply that we better join the Netherlands. Thus far, nobody has seen this coming, and I've got plenty of arguments why that'd be better for us. It's not that I want either...I just don't believe for a second we'd be "better off if we did it ourselves".


Also borders in Spain depending upon how you want to consider Gibraltar, though that seems to have been resolved well enough.

The politicians are of a stripe. Means affiliation. Them being thrown out on their arse is as it sounds someone being forcefully evicted from somewhere (think cartoons where someone gets thrown out of a drinking establishment), in this case it would career suicide.

As far as scare mongering there were bullets flying and bombs there until rather recently as these things go (1998 saw the Good Friday Agreement and it coming into force in 1999, the PIRA technically only shutting down in 2005). Similarly there is nothing to "give back" as it were -- the UK's Russia-Crimea moment happening in the 1600s (see Plantation of Ulster), and that point the UK was only just that (England and Scotland only uniting, ish, less than a decade earlier, and Wales formally coming to the fold some 80 years earlier). Even without that the general consensus of those living there has tended to be "this UK lark is nice". If the people there don't see the need and there is not really a sensible historical precent then yeah.
The potential for it all to kick off again... while it would take a serious effort I am not going to rule it out -- there are likely still plenty there still young enough to still squeeze a trigger, and their kids might have grown up on first hand stories.

I very much agree that it is a hard problem without an easy solution (you missed the third option in your ponderings of set the border on the water somewhere).
 

Armadillo

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We can't just give it back anyway.

It's not up to us. United Ireland is only happening if a majority in both Ireland and Northen Ireland want it. So no one has suggested it, because it's not something the UK can do.

Consitution of Ireland was changed after the GFA to say

"It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island"

Northen Ireland act says

"It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1."

So we can't just "give it back". Which is why no one has suggested it. Even if you ignored the potential for people kicking off again, it's just not a legal option to just decide to give it Ireland.
 

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Grumpy men were grumpy, because - same as it ever was - they were mostly situated in the former industrial regions of GB and former working belts, and they 'suffered' from inner EU migration most.

Coincidentally they might also be the ones suffering from Brexit most. But those things happen. (With a higher probaility if you give populists your vote.. ;) )

Whats currently happening is the following.

Hard Brexit is lose/lose.

GB 'controls' the option of forcing a hard Brexit.
EU 'controls' the option to give in on the north irish border. (Thats the thing where they now control an option to have "the" say on GB trade deals in the future).

The thing is, everyone short and mid term wants them to agree to an open border (open markets) there - the flipside is, that the EU rightly insist, that open borders for the EU market means, that you also have to adhere to EU rules. And part of those was, that people can move freely - the same as wares, which the UK just voted out. Because people.

The deeper conflict now resides around when and how one of the two can unilaterally decide on making the border towards north ireland (or the EU) a hard one again, or imposing EU trade laws after a grace period again. (In case a UK-EU trade agreement is not successful and active within 4 years).

Currently the british are effed, becaue the only thing they control, is the option to force a hard Brexit, with the short term outcome being horrible for Britain. As in their economy tanks majorly. Much more so, than the one in the EU and recovery will be slower and harder. (Think civil war being a possibility.)

The EU has red line at gifting the UK its markets for free - without having to deal with inner EU migration (freedom of movement of wares and people).

So here is what will happen. :)

Short and mid term the EU has all the cards in their hands. The british basically voted to fuck themselves and their economy for the next 20 years, and have a border crises, and potentially loose scotland (overblown.. ;) ). ;)

Longterm, everyone is interested in doing sustainable "win/win" deals again though.

So if the EU fuck the UK 'too hard' short term, its actually not beneficial for them.

Hard Brexit is the "horror specter" thats used for the EU to move and give concessions. It could be triggered from the perspective of the UK becoming what the "leavers" wanted, but only maybe - the earliest in 20-25 years.

The EU would hate that, because it would be an example of exiting EU - long term having become a viable example. (If somone can do it, its the British.).

So they'd have to act politically against that taking place - any way they could. Which would lock both parties into a "lose/lose" scenario - which no one wants.

Thats why the outcome will be a another deal. Another small concession by the EU, that can be sold to the popolous as a win. "And the very, very best we could do." With there still being a trajectory, that the UK could come back into the EU long term still being the most viable option (win/win).

"Another peoples vote" will never happen, thats just national oppositional politics.

Hard Brexit will not likely happen - because the majorities aren there (in case they want it they have to pull a "national crisis" moment) - think politicians have to explain to their constituencies, that they are not only fucked, but very, very fucked (for the next 20 years).

Most likely scenario is still that they get something online, that sounds great, and can be sold to the public as a success. The EU will not give them open trade under their terms for free. But there is the UK bonus, so they might get it with substantial counter trades in place.

How fucked are the british short and mid term? In any case: Very.
 
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Taleweaver

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Currently the british are effed, becaue the only thing they control, is the option to force a hard Brexit, with the short term outcome being horrible for Britain. As in their economy tanks majorly. Much more so, than the one in the EU and recovery will be slower and harder. (Think civil war being a possibility.)
Not at all. The EU is pretty clear on that: the UK has the right to end the whole operation one-sided. No one can say "nope...you started this brexit thing: you've got to pull through!". Everything can go back to the way it was if the political leaders agree on it.

The thing is: nobody dares to admit defeat. That's probably why news commenters can say that May's election result was "horrible", "an historic low" and so on...and she still manage to survive a vote of confidence ON THE SAME DAY.

It's probably also why everyone in the government wants to avoid a second referendum. For the last two years, they've acted as if the first one was won by a major landslide, but if anything it was fifty-fifty. The result could go either way, and the fact that this is hardly being pushed (seriously: why is Corbyn avoiding it? Last I read, 75% of his party wanted a second referendum) is perhaps the weirdest things in this whole situation.

notimp said:
Hard Brexit is the "horror specter" thats used for the EU to move and give concessions. It could be triggered from the perspective of the UK becoming what the "leavers" wanted, but only maybe - the earliest in 20-25 years.

The EU would hate that, because it would be an example of exiting EU - long term having become a viable example. (If somone can do it, its the British.).
Erm...I'm not sure how the EU leaders would feel about this, but I'm inclined to say "no". From what I've read, I have the idea that the UK was always both-in-and-out of the EU. While the rest of the EU set out to standardize rulings and laws between countries, the UK was always one of those "I want to do it my way!" countries. In that aspect, the brexit could be a win-win situation: if UK doesn't believe in the EU project, then - with all due respect - their efforts are indeed better aimed at themselves than attempts to force them into something they don't want to be.

If there's any hatred in the EU, it's because the way the UK government is treating this (and even then: frustration would be the better word). Shortly after the brexit, it became painfully clear that the government had NO IDEA how to handle things. They hadn't given thought on the border, hadn't given thought about trade agreements, had no unified goal as what would become of EU citizens in the UK, perhaps had no clues that EU money was also spent on projects within the UK... So since then, all of these questions and more were talked about and arrangements were made. Apparently solely by May because everyone else was too busy playing Waldorf and Statler*. Nearly two years of work to make sure that within the set limits and requirements, the UK could leave the EU without alienating from their closest neighbors.
...which is then flushed down the drain because twats in the UK government can say "no" to it without having to offer an alternative. GG, guys. If the EU was a band camp, then the UK would be that spoiled little brat with the rich father.

UK: I want to leave this joint! I don't like it here anymore!
EU: that's unfortunate. But okay...go pack up your things and meet me at the exit.
UK: pack up? Meet? Huh??? How do I do that???
EU: *sighs*
<a bit later>
EU: okay...now, then. If you go in that direction and follow that sign saying "exit", then you'll be out. Happy?
UK: NO! I don't want to listen to you! <*throws himself out of the closed window directly next to the exit*>




*for those unfamiliar with the muppet show: being elderly grumps that comment from the sidelines but don't participate in anything.
 

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