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Millennial finding totalitarian concepts fascinating at hacker conference

TotalInsanity4

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You’re igonoring the other half of the argument. There’s people, organizations and parties advocating for legislation to further limit speech in most of the western countries. Hate speech as a term is a vehicle to convey that the current limitations on speech aren’t enough.
And your argument is ignoring the context of mine; our constitution expressly prohibits a government body from preventing citizens from using speech as dissent. We also have a system in place where courts must interpret laws in the context of previous rulings, unless the situation demands otherwise. I know of no serious effort within the U.S. to expand defamation and hate speech laws into territory where it would encapsulate people who genuinely aren't causing a problem.
 
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supersonicwaffle

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And your argument is ignoring the context of mine; our constitution expressly prohibits a government body from preventing citizens from using speech as dissent. We also have a system in place where courts must interpret laws in the context of previous rulings, unless the situation demands otherwise. I know of no serious effort within the U.S. to expand defamation and hate speech laws into territory where it would encapsulate people who genuinely aren't causing a problem.

I guess we have a misunderstanding here.

I asked whether you meant to say (US) liberals are advocating for limiting free speech by invoking hate speech because it wasn’t clear to me and you confirmed I understood correctly, no?

Now you’re saying you know no one even though you mentioned you hear people advocating it? I’m confused.

According to a yougov Survey the majority of Democrats would support such legislation.
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/05/20/hate-speech
 
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TotalInsanity4

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I asked whether you meant to say (US) liberals are advocating for limiting free speech by invoking hate speech because it wasn’t clear to me and you confirmed I understood correctly, no?
I don't believe I did, considering that hate speech already isn't considered free speech. You yourself said that current definitions were more or less adequate, and I agreed with you there

Now you’re saying you know no one even though you mentioned you hear people advocating it? I’m confused.
Careful, because that's not what I said. I said that there was no serious push for outlandish legislation that would be too overarching, not that there aren't ill-informed people that exist that would advocate for such hypothetical legislation if it would come up

According to a yougov Survey the majority of Democrats would support such legislation.
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/05/20/hate-speech
You also need to be careful when reading that study, because it's written in a way that kind of (in my opinion) skews the answers. The text of the question specifically asks whether it should be illegal "to make public comments intended to stir up hatred." This is already illegal, to a degree, considering that incitement to imminent lawless action (which is to say, rioting or hate crimes) was made illegal in 1969. I can understand why people might want to expand that to cover a broader period of time; I don't necessarily consider that to be unreasonable legislation. Again, limiting the incitement of violent acts isn't a limitation to free speech, it's a protection towards the class of people that the speaker wishes real-world harm to
 

supersonicwaffle

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I don't believe I did, considering that hate speech already isn't considered free speech. You yourself said that current definitions were more or less adequate, and I agreed with you there


Careful, because that's not what I said. I said that there was no serious push for outlandish legislation that would be too overarching, not that there aren't ill-informed people that exist that would advocate for such hypothetical legislation if it would come up


You also need to be careful when reading that study, because it's written in a way that kind of (in my opinion) skews the answers. The text of the question specifically asks whether it should be illegal "to make public comments intended to stir up hatred." This is already illegal, to a degree, considering that incitement to imminent lawless action (which is to say, rioting or hate crimes) was made illegal in 1969. I can understand why people might want to expand that to cover a broader period of time; I don't necessarily consider that to be unreasonable legislation. Again, limiting the incitement of violent acts isn't a limitation to free speech, it's a protection towards the class of people that the speaker wishes real-world harm to

Either way I guess it was a misunderstanding and I will also admit today is not my sharpest day for obvious reasons :D

I will agree that the way the question is asked may have skewed things on the other hand how do you ask this question? The fundemental problem is how would you define hate?

I understand the limitations are intended to protect. I very much take issue with your protected class qualifier though. Everyone should be equal before the law.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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I understand the limitations are intended to protect. I very much take issue with your protected class qualifier though. Everyone should be equal before the law.
And yeah, I see no reason why that shouldn't be the reason, as well. So long as a person isn't harming someone else, there's no reason they shouldn't be offered the same protections as everyone else. The only I phrase it the way I do is that there's a rather frequent pattern of offence towards very specific classes here in the U.S. (to be specific, the extreme right wing towards brown-skinned peoples)
 

supersonicwaffle

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And yeah, I see no reason why that shouldn't be the reason, as well. So long as a person isn't harming someone else, there's no reason they shouldn't be offered the same protections as everyone else. The only I phrase it the way I do is that there's a rather frequent pattern of offence towards very specific classes here in the U.S. (to be specific, the extreme right wing towards brown-skinned peoples)

There’s also a very frequent pattern of the extreme left towards white males where people are trying to redefine the meaning of racism to justify racism towards whites.

Both are wrong!
 
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Xzi

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Nah - people are obsessed with the word. You write entire threads about really important different stuff, and all they want to do is talk about the first word that triggered an emotional response in them.
It triggers people because you're using millennials as a scapegoat for anything you dislike. The baby boomers fucked this country up far more than any millennial will ever have the chance to, but I don't need to obsessively post about them and generalize them to get that point across.

Also I have a feeling that old people are going to be calling the next three generations or so "millennials." It's like calling every console "the Nintendo." Most millennials are in their thirties and forties by now, the younger generation is Gen Z.
 
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notimp

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Here are some adjacent concepts. It doesnt matter what the majority wants on concepts like "banning hate speech" not when hate speech can be formed to become - literally anything you dont like.

If thats the case, you are infringing on minority rights and something has to fence you in.

The entire deplatforming thing is so dangerous, because it leaves a majority with the believe, that diverging opinons can simply be "turned off", while raising anger and outrage forms in fringe groups. People not being able to talk to each other, because - someone can always produce an activist that feels triggered, is actually dangerous for society.

Also, those limitations arent there to protect. The majority doesnt have to be protected from minorities. People don't have to be protected from speech.

Whenever speech is limited or restricted, this is because of political motives, or because of situational aspects (impending danger for life, health, ...).

The why is very simple as well.

Meaning gets created through attribution. So if you have a majority being able to decide what constitutes meaning, and also be able to cast people out because of it - you end up with group dynamics, and not anything akin democratic systems, where there is a balance of power.

Thats basically why the concept of free speech exists.

Also there is a current tendency with people advocating against cyber bullying, to be rather free with their opinions on what would constitute "violence". They bring things into this context, because violence is something we have to protect people against, as a society.

But there is a flipside to this as well - if you enlarge the classification scheme of what entails being on the receiving end of violence to the point, where this can become subjective. Then also concepts like "non violent protest" become subjective - which in return makes the concept useless. So its always a thing where you have to weigh minority rights against what a majority would go with.

As a conclusion, forms of speech, can never be defined as "violent", "harmfull" or "hate speech", ad hoc - this always has to venture through a formalized process, where an independent entity also looks at minority rights in return. Some forms of speech can still be categorically banned, but the majority is not the decider.

And the second point, repeated was, that people dont have to be protected from speech. When speech is limited, it is usually because of considerations that have nothing to do with the individual.
(There are some exceptions, f.e. where peoples professional reputations are affected.)

Now - in a code of conduct, you can write basically anything you want - and you can then penalize people based on that.. ;) But thats different.
 
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Xzi

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Here are some adjacent concepts. It doesnt matter what the majority wants on concepts like "banning hate speech" not when hate speech can be formed to become - literally anything you dont like.
You can call anything you want hate speech, but there's still a legal definition that has to be met before anyone is going to be charged with a crime for it.
 

notimp

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It triggers people because you're using millennials as a scapegoat for anything you dislike. The baby boomers fucked this country up far more than any millennial will ever have the chance to, but I don't need to obsessively post about them and generalize them to get that point across.

Also I have a feeling that old people are going to be calling the next three generations or so "millennials." It's like calling every console "the Nintendo." Most millennials are in their thirties and forties by now, the younger generation is Gen Z.
Thats an over generalisation.

Please dont make me the problem, with how you (not you specifically) reacted in this case.

I didn't intend to use the word as "a scapegoat for everything negative" in this case.

Thats your interpretation. That I distance myself from profusely.

You filled it with meaning in this case, you didn't react to any attempts made to lay out why I used it in this case.
 
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Whole lotta love

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I dont feel being censored here, nor have I ever indicated so.

I still find it oddly funny - that people are trying to censor this specific use of a word in a thread about totalitarian tendencies. But thats just me. ;)

:huh::huh::huh:


I guess we have a misunderstanding here.

I asked whether you meant to say (US) liberals are advocating for limiting free speech by invoking hate speech because it wasn’t clear to me and you confirmed I understood correctly, no?

Now you’re saying you know no one even though you mentioned you hear people advocating it? I’m confused.

According to a yougov Survey the majority of Democrats would support such legislation.
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/05/20/hate-speech

I'd like to just add to this discussion that liberals and lefties are more frequently censored on college campuses than conservatives and right wingers.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...rrectness-free-speech-liberal-data-georgetown
 
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Silent_Gunner

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Dude, identity politics aside, fuck all of this, "the social credit system is a good idea," nonsense!

Totalitarianism never ends well. People, naturally, are selfish. Even Adam Smith admitted as such in the Wealth of Nations. The person who stocks the shelves at your local retail store(s)? They aren't doing it because they like doing repetitive and menial tasks, they want money to go spend on shit, save it up, whatever. That babysitter you hired? Regardless of how much she loves taking care of kids, she still has time that is valuable to her and has things to pay off.

I don't care how nice and utopian Karl Marx made his ideal society sound, it isn't ever going to work in any realistic capacity. All resources are scarce, and those that don't understand basic economics, frankly, deserve to be stuck in that very physical job where the potential for lots of money to be lost isn't going to keep plant managers and executives up at night worrying about phone calls that competent hires worth the green paper won't bother them about!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

:huh::huh::huh:




I'd like to just add to this discussion that liberals and lefties are more frequently censored on college campuses than conservatives and right wingers.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...rrectness-free-speech-liberal-data-georgetown

According to a liberal publication, but OK. Not that the right doesn't have a persecution complex or anything...



But then again, people want attention, want to feel special, and want to "change" the world. The problem is, are they doing all of these for themselves or also for others around them?

Usually, it's the guy on top influencing these crowds that's looking for the benefits.
 

TotalInsanity4

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All resources are scarce, and those that don't understand basic economics, frankly, deserve to be stuck in that very physical job where the potential for lots of money to be lost isn't going to keep plant managers and executives up at night worrying about phone calls that competent hires worth the green paper won't bother them about!.
Careful there; just because everything tangible is technically a finite resource doesn't mean everything is scarce by any means. As a matter of fact, a good recent example would be the global DRAM shortage -- the resources used to manufacture memory modules is in no worse supply than usual, but RAM manufacturers had created an artificial scarcity to drive prices up
 

supersonicwaffle

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:huh::huh::huh:




I'd like to just add to this discussion that liberals and lefties are more frequently censored on college campuses than conservatives and right wingers.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...rrectness-free-speech-liberal-data-georgetown

Thanks for that link. I will admit that I'm skeptical of vox given their recent double standard between PewDiePie's and LeBron James' oopsies.
Nevertheless I looked at the article and the linked sources. Here's what they actually say.
  • The political left is responsible for the majority of disinvitations of speakers. The numbers, however, should be interpreted carefully as disinvitation cases from religious universities are missing, the author says there have been many such cases and they would be considered disinvitation campaigns by the political right. His conclusion is that the numbers are inconclusive
  • The second source says that most incidents of interruptions and protests involve specific speakers (Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Shapiro, Charles Murray, and Ann Coulter ) and that these speakers sometimes seem to invite disruption. The Vox article interprets this as right wing students trolling left wing students by inviting them.
  • The only graph the Vox article shows (and the reason for their headline) is one that shows data of faculty members being fired for political speech. The source article mentions that the major reasons for firing left wing faculty was "anti-white" or "anti-christian" speech and for right wingers it was "anti-minority" or "anti-diversity".
Of course, these numbers are up for interpretations and Vox is allowed their right to interpret things as they want. If you ask me, I'd say the numbers about disinvitation are inconclusive because the numbers are incomplete, notably lacking numbers that would be expected to skew towards the right being responsible for disinvitations, the numbers that actually are there show that disinvitation campaigns are driven by the left at non religious universities. The numbers regarding dismissal of faculty show that left wing faculty members have a four times bigger problem with racism and bigotry than conservative faculty members, it's pretty convenient that vox leaves out that the major reason for the firings have been racism and bigotry according to the source they used.

Neither article concludes that the left is censored more often, vox just asserts that the data suggests the right isn't censored more often, which isn't substantiated by their source. Further, Vox' author implies multiple times that the conservative students' intent is to provoke and troll without ever substantiating any of it, it's pretty ridiculous.

It's also worth noting that Vox' rephrased a part of the article because the only piece of relevant data that they showed was interpreted as left wing faculty members being more likely to be fired, which is plain wrong.
 
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Silent_Gunner

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Careful there; just because everything tangible is technically a finite resource doesn't mean everything is scarce by any means. As a matter of fact, a good recent example would be the global DRAM shortage -- the resources used to manufacture memory modules is in no worse supply than usual, but RAM manufacturers had created an artificial scarcity to drive prices up

Oh, you better believe I'm aware of this bullshit as someone who had to buy new DDR4 RAM earlier last year (it's 2019 now, it's last year), with 16GB not coming cheap!

And I heard DDR5 is going to be a thing in 2020. Didn't do any research on it because, to be frank, my PC still isn't powering on (still have to take it to a shop to get someone to hopefully figure out what's wrong. Unfortunately, that's just how busy I am now), and once it powers back on, I'd like to put the current PC in a new case, but hopefully with better cables!

But either way, my point stands. Even if there's a lot of oil in the ground, one of these days, we're gonna run out, and we better have some other way of using cars at some point IMO. It'd be cool to see everything being powered by the Sun at some point in the future, because then needing cables to charge everything shouldn't be an issue once they've refined the tech to where it's the ideal solution!
 

supersonicwaffle

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The conference itself has drawn criticism for its embracing of extreme left ideals. Here's a few things that have been reported on.
  • An Antifa flag was prominently featured at the entrance.
  • The event was supposed to be a bully free zone but a poster with a poll to ban or not ban a blogger that's been present have already been posted right after the event opened (implying it's been put there by organizers during set up) and wasn't taken down.
  • A hacker assembly competing in the capture the flag competition was told not to show their flag by security because it may be damaged or stolen. The flag was given to them for making a CTF competition final at a Korean conference and under the team logo it said GERMANY and had a little German flag to denote the team's nationality.
--
Im trying to understand what you mean by this?

Hacking has always been about transparency and challenging / questioning authority. Embracing totalitarianism is very outlandish.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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An Antifa flag was prominently featured at the entrance.
Really quickly, I'd like you to think for a second why it might be important to display anti-fascist imagery at a hacker conference based in Germany

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

But either way, my point stands. Even if there's a lot of oil in the ground, one of these days, we're gonna run out, and we better have some other way of using cars at some point IMO. It'd be cool to see everything being powered by the Sun at some point in the future, because then needing cables to charge everything shouldn't be an issue once they've refined the tech to where it's the ideal solution!
Oh I totally agree. I'm just trying to make sure you don't fall into the consumerist trap of "all resources are scarce, so it makes sense for companies to charge what they want, even if that includes potentially life-saving/changing products"
 
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supersonicwaffle

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Really quickly, I'd like you to think for a second why it might be important to display anti-fascist imagery at a hacker conference based in Germany

I don’t know. Maybe to remind us of the good times people had in the GDR or all the fun people had being killed by extremist left terror organizations like RAF.
 

TotalInsanity4

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I don’t know. Maybe to remind us of the good times people had in the GDR or all the fun people had being killed by extremist left terror organizations like RAF.
More along the lines of announcing that they stand in opposition with the AFD, if I had to venture a guess. Especially because of the tendency for groups like this; I mean, look at the subject of the thread, for instance.

Remember that the DDR was controlled by Soviet communists; while you'll still find people in former East Germany that reminisce on the "good old days," you'd be hard pressed to find anybody that actually sympathizes with the party in a modern totalitarian setting. I know because I've met with a bunch of people who were quite literally on the line between East and West Germany
 

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