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Trumpcare

SG854

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Thing is the people who use the healthcare system the most are the poor who flock to the ER - which is the most expensive place to receive healthcare.

And guess what, they can't pay that huge bill - so it ends up being footed by everyone else anyway.

As someone who worked as an EMT let me tell you, they already treat emergency medicine like it's candy. People would call because they fell over and needed help up, or because they got stung by a bee.

At least with universal care they could treat regular visits like candy - which would cost less.
It wouldn’t cost less if they are treating it like candy. It would cost more. Unless government refuses to pay for the costs then overall medical system would degrade like it has in Canada and Europe. And Canada treats it more like candy than the U.S.

The fact that the Primier of Quebec gets their medical care in the U.S. instead of their native Canadian country is telling. Or the huge amount of doctors from around the world that practices in the U.S. because of less constraining restrictions is another sign.

Many doctors in the U.K. are foreign born graduating from colleges that have less standards because they are unable to get native born doctors because people don’t see the benefit in the U.K. system. If you don’t incentivize doctors through competition then they won’t see benifits in becoming a doctor.
 
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SG854

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We have more MRI’s and CT Scanners per million population in the U.S. then in Canada and U.K.

CT Scanners per million
7.5 in Britain
11.2 in Canada
32.2 in the United States

MRI’s per million
5.4 Britain
5.5 Canada
26.6 United States

This is just another sign of degraded medical care in Canada and Britain. They are unable to get latest tech.

Black markets are also common in U.K., Canada, Britain, Korea and Japan.

Hidden costs are also not counted in statistics. Like paying more to get ahead on the waiting lists. Since wait times are longer in those countries. And more money you loose if your out of work longer for waiting. Which is another hidden cost that is not counted in medical care statistics.

And it seems cheaper because they have more visits for half as long, then less visits for twice as long like U.S. does. So per visit costs appear cheaper in Europe since they spend less time with doctors. Less time cheaper costs. Longer time spent with doctor higher cost. But overall costs isn’t cheaper because of more repeated visits. Going for more visits then less to get the same work done I don’t think people would like that.

We also have more medical innovations compared to any other country in the world. U.S. is number 1 in this field. They are unable to fund research in other countries to the same level as U.S.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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so how are we gonna pay for said Universal health care?
The same way any other countries do

Which is to say the same way we already do, except instead of paying for private insurance you're paying more in taxes. In return, you're paying an institution that isn't trying to put profits before your welbeing
 
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FAST6191

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We have more MRI’s and CT Scanners per million population in the U.S. then in Canada and U.K.

CT Scanners per million
7.5 in Britain
11.2 in Canada
32.2 in the United States

MRI’s per million
5.4 Britain
5.5 Canada
26.6 United States

This is just another sign of degraded medical care in Canada and Britain. They are unable to get latest tech.

Black markets are also common in U.K., Canada, Britain, Korea and Japan.

Hidden costs are also not counted in statistics. Like paying more to get ahead on the waiting lists. Since wait times are longer in those countries. And more money you loose if your out of work longer for waiting. Which is another hidden cost that is not counted in medical care statistics.

And it seems cheaper because they have more visits for half as long, then less visits for twice as long like U.S. does. So per visit costs appear cheaper in Europe since they spend less time with doctors. Less time cheaper costs. Longer time spent with doctor higher cost. But overall costs isn’t cheaper because of more repeated visits. Going for more visits then less to get the same work done I don’t think people would like that.

We also have more medical innovations compared to any other country in the world. U.S. is number 1 in this field. They are unable to fund research in other countries to the same level as U.S.


Speaking of hidden costs. I have seen many friends and associates take a spin in the US, or go there on a more permanent basis, both to rich states and to poor ones, as well as been there myself and find myself speaking to the unwashed masses. Without fail they and myself have seen some absolute horrors that people had not seen in decades, only seen in incredibly remote areas or only seen when various parts of Eastern Europe opened up and people dragged their sibling along with them. Similarly I have met plenty stuck in jobs they hate because insurance where they would instead have liked to have gone self employed, gone bankrupt/seriously debt laden from medical expenses, or find themselves living with things that are readily fixable and suffering the knock on effects to quality of life. Quality of care is right up there, and quite possibly class leading (not that there is a lot in it), if you can afford to pay for it but the key word is so often "if".

Similarly numbers paint a picture, outcomes another and you can also question if there are other ways (exercise based things in the case of heart conditions for instance). Similarly because of a bit of a suing culture there it is noted a lot more people get what you might call unnecessary CTs (which are still xrays and have the corresponding effects). The specifics here are not my forte though so I will have to pause that one for now and go do some reading.

Medical innovation wise then you can paint all sorts of pictures there. Quora I know but most things appear to be referenced so I will go it
https://www.quora.com/What-countrie...-during-the-time-period-between-1995-and-2014
 
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kuwanger

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We have more MRI’s and CT Scanners per million population in the U.S. then in Canada and U.K.

CT Scanners per million
7.5 in Britain
11.2 in Canada
32.2 in the United States

MRI’s per million
5.4 Britain
5.5 Canada
26.6 United States

This is just another sign of degraded medical care in Canada and Britain. They are unable to get latest tech.

I wouldn't go on CT Scanners or MRIs as a basis of degraded medical care inherently. Population density clearly isn't wholly an explanation. Nor is having an aging population, though I imagine that might heavily explain Japan.

Black markets are also common in U.K., Canada, Britain, Korea and Japan.

As in the US. Black markets are common even in places where there's little regulation.

Hidden costs are also not counted in statistics. Like paying more to get ahead on the waiting lists. Since wait times are longer in those countries. And more money you loose if your out of work longer for waiting. Which is another hidden cost that is not counted in medical care statistics.

Nor the hidden costs of refusing to see a doctor until the situation is very bad and all the lost productivity as you work ineffectively through the pain. Definitely, hidden costs are very difficult to tabulate.

And it seems cheaper because they have more visits for half as long, then less visits for twice as long like U.S. does. So per visit costs appear cheaper in Europe since they spend less time with doctors. Less time cheaper costs. Longer time spent with doctor higher cost. But overall costs isn’t cheaper because of more repeated visits. Going for more visits then less to get the same work done I don’t think people would like that.

Uh, no. The numbers most frequently used are total cost per capita, so ineffective shorter doctor visits in Europe would if anything inflate the costs of Universal Healthcare meaning the US would look better.

We also have more medical innovations compared to any other country in the world. U.S. is number 1 in this field. They are unable to fund research in other countries to the same level as U.S.

Medical research funding is indirectly related to medical treatment costs. The part where there's any argument that the US improves medical research is in that US hospitals and insurers do not negotiate nearly as well so incur the guinea pig costs of new treatments so more companies can charge the sort of prices that allow to further such lines of research. Meanwhile, other countries do medical research but it is more heavily government funded (through universities and the like) and regular implementation into the medical field focuses on the benefit to cost ratio.

In the end, if you're rich enough, you can always find some doctor to do the procedure for the right price whether that means flying to the US, Thailand, or wherever. It's just that most common people don't get the treatment and so the effective per capita cost of treatment is often much lower. Obviously, that's still a gross oversimplification.

Japan is the odd-one-out as it has a system marginal like the US (required health insurance without a penalty) but health insurance is run by the government, hospitals are non-profit, and patients owe 30% of costs (0% if low income); the Japanese government also sets the rates for many (all?) procedures. And the result is lots of MRI/CT scanners and outcomes about the same as the US...which isn't saying much; I imagine Japan's general diet may have something to do with that more than their health care system, but it's hard to be sure about such hidden benefits.

PS - I was wrong. There is one area where the US isn't too crap in: cancer survival rates. The US is at least #1 in breast cancer survival (by a 1% margin to Australia and Canada). I imagine that too has more to do with awareness campaigns in the countries involved.
 
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Xzi

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This is a joke, right? When have Republicans ever made an honest attempt at passing any sort of healthcare reform? They'll attack whatever ideas the Democrats have, like single payer or Medicare for all, but they never have any ideas of their own. Republicans care far more about the insurance aspect of healthcare than anything else, which is exactly how Obamacare ended up so watered-down from compromise in the first place.

The ruling against Obamacare is flimsy at best and probably won't hold up anyway, but I'm perfectly fine with discussing the future of healthcare, because obviously it still needs changes. Just don't expect Trump to move on this at all before the next election. Remember that he's only passed one bill as president, and that was while he controlled all three branches of government.
 

TotalInsanity4

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This is a joke, right? When have Republicans ever made an honest attempt at passing any sort of healthcare reform? They'll attack whatever ideas the Democrats have, like single payer or Medicare for all, but they never have any ideas of their own. Republicans care far more about the insurance aspect of healthcare than anything else, which is exactly how Obamacare ended up so watered-down from compromise in the first place.

The ruling against Obamacare is flimsy at best and probably won't hold up anyway, but I'm perfectly fine with discussing the future of healthcare, because obviously it still needs changes. Just don't expect Trump to move on this at all before the next election. Remember that he's only passed one bill as president, and that was while he controlled all three branches of government.
To be fair, Mitt Romney actually did run on a platform of healthcare reform and did have a hand in authoring the ACA if I remember correctly (although it would have been partially due to him that it ended up as conservative as it did). I also wouldn't have been particularly surprised if John McCain would have supported some form of healthcare reform. They're both DEFINITELY exceptions to the rule, though
 

Xzi

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To be fair, Mitt Romney actually did run on a platform of healthcare reform and did have a hand in authoring the ACA if I remember correctly (although it would have been partially due to him that it ended up as conservative as it did). I also wouldn't have been particularly surprised if John McCain would have supported some form of healthcare reform. They're both DEFINITELY exceptions to the rule, though
Yeah I remember his own party attacking Romney over that, and the party was definitely against McCain by the time he passed too. Republicans shun anybody who doesn't prioritize corporate donors over all else.
 
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Dear Barack Obama,

Obamacare is a failure. Obamacare was doomed to be a failure. Obamacare made compulsory Health insurance a band-aid over Health Care, but Health Insurance is not Health Care. The only system that would provide health care for all people in America is a system that specifically does something like that, like Universal Healthcare. There's nothing wrong with admitting your mistakes; it's important to acknowledge them if your desire is for the people you care about, not attempting to fulfill a Legacy; Jimmy Carter has accomplished many good things since leaving the Presidency.

Join the Republicans, Democrats, and Trump to Repeal and Replace Obamacare with Universal Healthcare. Make it clear that you'd joyously give Trump all the credit if he wants it if it means Universal Healthcare; Nixon passed many good laws. Advocate making Universal Healthcare a Constitutional Amendment. Stump for any Democrat or Republican will to support such legislation. Call out other Democrats who refuse to work with Republicans. Acknowledge criticism of not working well-enough with Republicans in the past, but make it clear you are putting the country first now and will work with anyone with the same goal. Advocate merging Medicare/Medicaid into Universal Healthcare. Make it clear that health care is an American responsibility, and it shouldn't be left up to individual States to control the flow of money to pay for health care nor to set requirements for licensing of doctors or nurses or restriction on services provided; yes, this means Universal Healthcare paying for abortions. Make it clear that so long as abortion is a legal medical procedure and deemed necessary, it is appropriate for Universal Healthcare to fund it like any other necessary procedure. Private hospitals and abortion clinics can continue to exist to allow for medical procedures deemed unnecessary or to expedite non-emergency care, to paid for by insurance or out of pocket.

Advocate to take steps to reduce the costs of health care by making more doctors available, bulk purchasing prescription, and other steps that other countries with Universal Healthcare engage in. This could include things like complete Federal management of student loan forgiveness for doctors and nurses, lowering residency requirements for doctors from countries with comparable health systems, requiring all public hospitals to run residency programs, and seeing what regulations are unnecessary or overly expensive and should be reworked or removed. Based on other Universal Healthcare systems, the money we spend on Medicare/Medicaid alone should be enough to cover nearly all the expenses of Universal Healthcare for all people in America; a slight tax increase may be necessary and the market correction will undoubtedly be painful, but it's a necessary step.

I believe fundamentally you are a pragmatist. However, there is nothing pragmatic in merely doing what seems possible today if your goal is a better future. What is pragmatic is to strive for the things that are really possible today and tomorrow. There's definitely a lot about the cost of and organization of health care I am not well versed enough in to fully flesh out the idea. It will take many people, both in the private and public sector to provide input. There are many example countries to look at on what we're doing wrong on cost. If there's one person's voice that will resonate the most, it will be yours to make clear that what matters more is not whether you have your name associated with something but whether what needs to be done is done.

Wow do I have a bridge for you
 

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I mean... I'm not gonna say that the ACA was perfect by any means, because I'd so much rather have properly-implemented single-payer healthcare. That said, it's still LEAGUES better than the for-profit healthcare system we've been stuck with up to that point, especially for the people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford private insurance.


Well... yeah, but [insert low-hanging fruit joke here], y'know? I get what you're saying, but that's really kind of because that actually is the case. And the more important point here isn't that Obama thinks Trump is incompetent (although he'd never say that out loud, those were the days), it's that Obama clearly doesn't care about credit for himself, he genuinely wants what he thinks is best for the nation.


That's... kinda shifting the topic of the conversation you started, but yes, you're right. There's really nothing that I disagree with here. And honestly that's what's going to HAVE to happen, because there's no plausible scenario in which I could see Donald Trump supporting universal single-payer healthcare

It was so perfect that low-income and jobless people like were totally unable to afford ACA and get penalized for not being able to get insurance, thanks, Obama!

Yeah, fuck Obamacare
 

Xzi

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It was so perfect that low-income and jobless people like were totally unable to afford ACA and get penalized for not being able to get insurance, thanks, Obama!

Yeah, fuck Obamacare
Have you seen the insurance rates lately, after the individual mandate was repealed? They're way the fuck higher. More importantly, pre-existing conditions were never covered before Obamacare, and they won't be again if it gets repealed. The fate of Obamacare is literally a death panel being held by Republicans for hundreds of thousands of Americans.
 
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kuwanger

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Wow do I have a bridge for you

Wow, I have two. They're both very nice.

It was so perfect that low-income and jobless people like were totally unable to afford ACA and get penalized for not being able to get insurance, thanks, Obama!

Uh, yea, part of that was why Medicaid was expanded in scope but a bunch of States refused the money because in the long term they'd be put on the hook for the larger pool that'd be eligible. Overall, I agree that such was an entirely stupid strategy because it relied upon State governments covering (a large part) of the poor and letting the market+insurers basically dictate the rates, which is fundamentally why all sorts of private+public systems in the US are so broken. Markets that know they can keep jacking up the rates and the government will just pay for it are a gold mine.
 
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the_randomizer

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Wow, I have two. They're both very nice.



Uh, yea, part of that was why Medicaid was expanded in scope but a bunch of States refused the money because in the long term they'd be put on the hook for the larger pool that'd be eligible. Overall, I agree that such was an entirely stupid strategy because it relied upon State governments covering (a large part) of the poor and letting the market+insurers basically dictate the rates, which is fundamentally why all sorts of private+public systems in the US are so broken. Markets that know they can keep jacking up the rates and the government will just pay for it are a gold mine.

Yeah, it was so good I couldn't afford jack shit, yay for BS socialized medicine.
 

Xzi

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Yeah, it was so good I couldn't afford jack shit, yay for BS socialized medicine.
Obamacare was never billed as socialized healthcare. It started as single-payer and then slowly became watered down as Republicans complained about it not making them enough money. We just need Medicare-for-all and be done with it. It polls at like 70% approval, so obviously Republicans are against it in order to "own the libs." Just another issue, like weed, where they can't get out of their own way and refuse to stand on the right side of history.
 
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Kioku

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Obamacare was never billed as socialized healthcare. It started as single-payer and then slowly became watered down as Republicans complained about it not making them enough money. We just need Medicare-for-all and be done with it. It polls at like 70% approval, so obviously Republicans are against it in order to "own the libs."
I don't understand your bias against Republicans... However, it definitely is not just their fault Obamacare came to be the nightmare it is.
 

Xzi

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I don't understand your bias against Republicans... However, it definitely is not just their fault Obamacare came to be the nightmare it is.
It's not bias, I've simply accepted the fact that Republicans don't give a fuck about healthcare reforms of any kind. They're perfectly fine with the entire system being a drain on the economy and rejecting treatment for needful individuals as long as it means the right corporations are making money. They'll give it lip service and that's about it.

If Obamacare does get repealed and another Republican gets elected, we'll have a really fun time getting through the next recession with no healthcare options whatsoever. Six years of worse healthcare than what third-world countries get. Like I said though, Medicare-for-all polls really well across all demographics, so that should give Democrats an extra bump for 2020.
 
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Obamacare was never billed as socialized healthcare. It started as single-payer and then slowly became watered down as Republicans complained about it not making them enough money. We just need Medicare-for-all and be done with it. It polls at like 70% approval, so obviously Republicans are against it in order to "own the libs." Just another issue, like weed, where they can't get out of their own way and refuse to stand on the right side of history.

No matter, it was useless to people who had zero income and/or couldn't afford it even with income. So yeah, forced medical insurance is bullshit.
 

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