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The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

FAST6191

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While I have seen plenty of fun and games with the spousal visa/immigration stuff, and would absolutely want it looked at, the "EU peeps have more" thing seems potentially more like you want the other EU countries to up their game. If the other EU countries hold things to similar standards then if you made it there then then no great sense have redundant/duplicate tests. At this point I don't know if any of the other member states have something of a rubber stamp/open door policy, either practically or theoretically, and lack the time to go looking (given I have heard of those random churches in rural parts of the UK that end up doing hundreds of marriages for a bit of cash under the table I would like to believe I would have heard if Portugal or Bavaria was a disproportionately highly represented in all this).
 

JoeBloggs777

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While I have seen plenty of fun and games with the spousal visa/immigration stuff, and would absolutely want it looked at, the "EU peeps have more" thing seems potentially more like you want the other EU countries to up their game. If the other EU countries hold things to similar standards then if you made it there then then no great sense have redundant/duplicate tests. At this point I don't know if any of the other member states have something of a rubber stamp/open door policy, either practically or theoretically, and lack the time to go looking (given I have heard of those random churches in rural parts of the UK that end up doing hundreds of marriages for a bit of cash under the table I would like to believe I would have heard if Portugal or Bavaria was a disproportionately highly represented in all this).

your right about the fake marriages and like I said an EU citizen has a virtual right to a Family permit while a British citizen has to prove their relationship is genuine.

you cannot have 2 systems, it's crazy, EU citizens should have to prove their relationship is genuine to end farces like this

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/508895/parish-vicar-conveyor-belt-sham-marriages
 

kumikochan

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your right about the fake marriages and like I said an EU citizen has a virtual right to a Family permit while a British citizen has to prove their relationship is genuine.

you cannot have 2 systems, it's crazy, EU citizens should have to prove their relationship is genuine to end farces like this

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/508895/parish-vicar-conveyor-belt-sham-marriages
again, your wife wasn't a citizen from the union. Ofcourse a union citizen does have more rights then a non union member when it comes to union countries. How many times do i have to keep telling you that your comparison doesn't make sense at all !!!! If i marry another union citizen we can freely move in with each other but if i marry a person outside of the union i would have to deal with the same problems you just described wich is perfectly normal and fair. Ofcourse marriage between union citizen is gonna be different compared to marrying someone outside of the union. I really fail to grasp how you cannot grasp union citizens having more rights then non union citizens.
 
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JoeBloggs777

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again, your wife wasn't a citizen from the union. Ofcourse a union citizen does have more rights then a non union member when it comes to union countries. How many times do i have to keep telling you that your comparison doesn't make sense at all !!!!

and if a EU citizen marries someone from outside Europe, are they a EU citizen ?

of course not. it's pretty simple to understand

I don't know why you keep talking about my wife, the fact is the British partner sponsors their partner, the same way a EU citizen in the UK sponsors their partner.

the fact is the EU citizen has more rights than a British citizen in the UK.
 

kumikochan

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and if a EU citizen marries someone from outside Europe, are they a EU citizen ?

of course not. it's pretty simple to understand

I don't know why you keep talking about my wife, the fact is the British partner sponsors their partner, the same way a EU citizen in the UK sponsors their partner.

the fact is the EU citizen has more rights than a British citizen in the UK.
Ofcourse not, immigration is a bitch when you marry someone out of the union and that is perfectly normal. If you married someone from the union ofcourse different rules would apply since union members do have more rights in union countries. If that wasn't normal then i could just marry like an American girl and without me being American immediatly expect the same benefits as an American has ? Ofcourse not, that doesn't even make sense
 
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JoeBloggs777

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no it is not a bitch if you moved to the UK and married someone from out side the EU. as a EU citizen in the UK you virtually have a legal right to bring your partner to the UK.
While it can be a bitch for a British citizen to bring a partner from outside the EU.
you can exercise your treaty rights in the UK , while you cannot exercise your treaty rights in your own country, why the Fock not ?
 

kumikochan

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no it is not a bitch if you moved to the UK and married someone from out side the EU. as a EU citizen in the UK you virtually have a legal right to bring your partner to the UK.
While it can be a bitch for a British citizen to bring a partner from outside the EU.
you can exercise your treaty rights in the UK , while you cannot exercise your treaty rights in your own country, why the Fock not ?
You keep saying british citizen but you always were a union citizen and still are a union citizen till the brexit finally is signed and over with. It's as much as a bitch for you as for any other union citizen when it comes to marriage with someone outside of the union. That's how the world works buddy.
 
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bodefuceta

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Summer is almost here, very hot and a lot of mosquitoes. I'd like if my country joined EU right now, but please put it somewhere without harsh winters or things could get pretty bad.

Honestly though. Either enforce an alternative to democracy or respect the will of the people. This "issue" is long decided. Being part of the "union" warmongers and climate terrorists is a very bad deal and I respect the people of UK for the decision. Leave NATO while you're at it. But your country is still going to shit. The desert people takeover is close and your climate will remain bad, all that (may) remain are the old buildings.
 

kumikochan

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Summer is almost here, very hot and a lot of mosquitoes. I'd like if my country joined EU right now, but please put it somewhere without harsh winters or things could get pretty bad.

Honestly though. Either enforce an alternative to democracy or respect the will of the people. This "issue" is long decided. Being part of the "union" warmongers and climate terrorists is a very bad deal and I respect the people of UK for the decision. Leave NATO while you're at it. But your country is still going to shit. The desert people takeover is close and your climate will remain bad, all that (may) remain are the old buildings.
War mongers and climate terrorists ? Excuse me ?
 

JoeBloggs777

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You keep saying british citizen but you always were a union citizen and still are a union citizen till the brexit finally is signed and over with. It's as much as a bitch for you as for any other union citizen when it comes to marriage with someone outside of the union. That's how the world works buddy.


https://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.

so if I want the same rights as you would have in the UK, I have to go and live in another country for months. this is a joke.

We are all EU citizens, but you have more rights if you are living in another EU country, thats crazy.
 

kumikochan

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https://eumovement.wordpress.com/directive-200438ec/

If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.

so if I want the same rights as you would have in the UK, I have to go and live in another country for months. this is a joke.

We are all EU citizens, but you have more rights if you are living in another EU country, thats crazy.
I think you need to read it clearly. This has to do with travelling up to 90 days. It has nothing to do with living in another union country. Only when working in that other country you can move there basically and apply for citizenship but if you don't apply then you have to leave every 90 days
 
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JoeBloggs777

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kumikochan

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For their support of NATO. Bosnia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc, all against the locals will. Specially Libya. Don't really have time to explain the rest.
Eum you mean the NATO and it's not against the will of all the people but only against some wich usually are the bad ones plus what did you mean with climate terrorists ?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

no your wrong, it's about the right of free movement for citizens of the European Economic Area (EEA)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens’_Rights_Directive

nothing to do with 90 days of travel.

It gives EEA citizens the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area,
It does,
Copied from your own link :
-If a citizen is living in their home EU member state and has not worked in other EU member state, then this Directive does not apply. All movement of non-EU family members into the home state is governed by national law.
-Easy right to stay for up to 90 days if so desired. EU citizens and their non-EU family can work if desired in this period, or play.
-Easy right to stay longer if the EU citizen is working, is a student, or has medical insurance and is self sufficient ( Can only stay longer if you have a full time job in another country wich also means you pay taxes to that country ur working in)

And then regarding people outside of the union
  • There is no requirement that non-EU family members have previously been resident in the EU. An EU citizen and family members can move from outside the EU to an EU country (but not directly to the EU citizen’s home country!) on the basis of this Directive
  • Family members must be travelling with or joining the EU citizen, in which case they have the same free movement rights as the EU citizen. They do not, in general, have an independent right of free movement to new places.
So if you don't work in another country only up to 90 days is allowed
I still don't see the problem
 
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JoeBloggs777

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Summer is almost here, very hot and a lot of mosquitoes. I'd like if my country joined EU right now, but please put it somewhere without harsh winters or things could get pretty bad.

Honestly though. Either enforce an alternative to democracy or respect the will of the people. This "issue" is long decided. Being part of the "union" warmongers and climate terrorists is a very bad deal and I respect the people of UK for the decision. Leave NATO while you're at it. But your country is still going to shit. The desert people takeover is close and your climate will remain bad, all that (may) remain are the old buildings.

mate, I think you could do with Nato in your country.

Brazil has nearly 60,000 murders a year – more than some warzones – and boasts 21 of the world’s 50 most dangerous cities

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...s-is-on-course-to-be-most-crime-ridden-games/

 

bodefuceta

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smf

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human rights, you mean the low lifes that May tried to deport but couldn't because of their 'human rights'

I wasn't particularly thinking of that one, because it should still be impossible to deport them once we have left the EU. There is a UN treaty that prevents you deporting someone to a country where they face death or torture. I am pretty sure none of our politicians will want to end up in the hague.

Why would you support deporting someone who would face death or torture, who hasn't been arrested, charged or found guilty of a crime?

What I think is sad is that people gave up rights because they thought they could abuse foreigners and those foreigners will still have the same rights.

yet these same courts do F*ck all for law abiding British citizens when it comes to their human rights and a right to a family life. google 'spouse visa refused' where are these peoples human rights ? they have to rely on the British courts.

The first point of call is the British courts, they apply the UK and EU law. It's only if they apply it incorrectly that the ECJ overturn it.

The UK government are always messing with peoples human rights, in my opinion it's better that we have the EU to turn to than discard it. It appears you want to cut off your nose to spite your face.

my wife was a 'foreigner' even thou shes a British citizen now, she contributed a lot paying the higher rate of tax working as a A&E doctor.

Maybe not in a post brexit UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-foreign-doctors-british-nhs-eu-a7341256.html

Not that the Junior doctors we're training will want to stay.

Foreigners from out side the EU have to contribute to the economy as they can't claim most benefits until they have ILR. while EU foreigners can almost instantly and having possibily contributed little or even nothing.

EU freedom of movement doesn't require us to take people who can't support themselves, The UK government chose to do that. The statistics show that the majority of EU citizens actually support themselves and contribute to the economy.

If you say it's unfair that EU citizens can easily come here, but not people from the rest of the world. Then sure, I'd love for their to be a global free movement of people, so we can all move to where we want to live and work.

Honestly though. Either enforce an alternative to democracy or respect the will of the people.

The will of which people? Less than half the population of the UK voted to leave. Anyone under 18 didn't get a chance to vote, UK citizens that had lived outside the UK too long were denied the vote (even though they may have paid tax their entire working life and will be seriously affected by the result of the vote). Leave won by 1.2%, people dying and people gaining the vote will have eroded that lead by the time we actually leave.

I certainly agree that we should enforce democracy. But don't even begin to suggest that the way the referendum was run has any part in a democracy. All we want is a fair vote based on truth and not out and out lies (as Mr Banks has already admitted to).

I'm pretty sure democracy gives us the chance to change our minds as new information becomes available, as our priorities change and as people die and new people gain the vote. Anyone suggesting we should never have another referendum about EU membership is against democracy.

We are all EU citizens, but you have more rights if you are living in another EU country, thats crazy.

There are always anomalies. EU Mobile roaming rules mean that phoning another EU country is cheaper when you are on holiday than when you're at home.

If we break from the EU like the hard liners want, then inflation and job losses are going to cripple the country. Not having to put up with a few weird rules won't help & the uk government will more than make up for it with enough weird rules of their own.

The lack of free movement of people is going to increase crime as people who are trying to escape a life of crime will find it harder to do so as they will will find it harder to make a new life in another country.
 
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None of the things you list had anything to do with the EU
Lol. And this doesn't either, I'm sure. The common market demands subservience to multinational business interests tout court, from macro and employment to city zoning. You could keep hiding the post-modernist head in the sand and blame the deplorable precariat for not believing in a 10 year promise of economic reform that even the Sun President himself failed to make happen in an extremely modest fashion. Or the European Pillar of Social Rights (while this is not an issue, mind), or whatever the next empty promise is that is used as a distraction from the next depoliticization round of enshrining ordoliberalism.
Realistically, we can either choose a collapse that leads to nationalist fascism or multi-lateral sovereignty, and the former have a pretty good head start.
Someone mentioned the climate, yet another empty, unfulfilled promise where we closed nuclear power plants to open coal ones, or closed local social services and transportation so that people have to drive 17km by car to see the doctor - very clean climate reforms, sure.

Of course, again, this has little to do with May's "plan", because she has none. Or with the Labour's "rolling debt window" "plan" that would prevent them from doing anything - Harold Wilson's great legacy still going strong.
 

kumikochan

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Lol. And this doesn't either, I'm sure. The common market demands subservience to multinational business interests tout court, from macro and employment to city zoning. You could keep hiding the post-modernist head in the sand and blame the deplorable precariat for not believing in a 10 year promise of economic reform that even the Sun President himself failed to make happen in an extremely modest fashion. Or the European Pillar of Social Rights (while this is not an issue, mind), or whatever the next empty promise is that is used as a distraction from the next depoliticization round of enshrining ordoliberalism.
Realistically, we can either choose a collapse that leads to nationalist fascism or multi-lateral sovereignty, and the former have a pretty good head start.
Someone mentioned the climate, yet another empty, unfulfilled promise where we closed nuclear power plants to open coal ones, or closed local social services and transportation so that people have to drive 17km by car to see the doctor - very clean climate reforms, sure.

Of course, again, this has little to do with May's "plan", because she has none. Or with the Labour's "rolling debt window" "plan" that would prevent them from doing anything - Harold Wilson's great legacy still going strong.
You do know that Belgium is gonna be nuclear free by 2025 and we've been coal plant free for a long time now. That sounds pretty clean to me
 
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FAST6191

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So I was learning about the "backstop" agreement which has apparently been agreed ( https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46188790 ). Can't seem to find a current full agreed text so going with the older draft versions and some analysis/excerpts from people that do have something
https://www.europa-nu.nl/9353000/d/OntwerpVerdragBrexit.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_agreement_coloured.pdf

Not impressed at all and I can't see anybody really being impressed with it -- nobody that wanted to remain, nobody that wanted a bit more autonomy a la Norway or Switzerland, nobody that wanted to become just another country...
It is not even one foot in-one foot out but... some (notably one Mr Rees-Mogg) were using the phrase vassal state and I am inclined to agree, except for there being good historical examples of vassal states with better deals. Lengths of time various tax laws would apply, foreign policy being beholden to the EU to a fairly serious extent, various lengths of time EU courts would have jurisdiction (laws being the current ones than ones as they apply at the time, UK having no say in then current laws), Northern Ireland's results (all goods going to NI would have to comply with EU law lest they go into the ROI and onwards, things leaving it for the rest of the UK would just have to do UK law) making a quasi border on the Irish sea. There would be checks on things leaving the UK which might well make Kent something of a car park but that you can kind of deal with/expect), what some would say are anti competitive clauses as far being able to make superior trade deals with non EU states)

This is all supposed to be the negotiated compromise as well.
 

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