'Loot Boxes' Declared Gambling by Belgium GC & Hawaii HoR, Both Seek Bans in Europe and the US

Navonod · Dec 23, 2017

Next we should do away with Season passes, and dlc, then start releasing full games like they should have been the whole time.

Kioku · Dec 23, 2017

TotalInsanity4 said:
Correct

EA fucked up with Battlefront II, though, because they punish you (through lack of progression) for not getting loot boxes

I just don't understand why those types of loot boxes ever became a thing. You pay $60 for a game, just to either have to grind the event loving shit out of it or pay to unlock the rest of it.

KingVamp · Feb 24, 2018

More from the person who is trying to at least get some kind of regulation because clearly self-regulation is failing.

Xzi · Feb 24, 2018

DrGreed said:
Next we should do away with Season passes, and dlc, then start releasing full games like they should have been the whole time.

Season passes and DLC are almost never developed at the same time as the main game. Before any of that existed, they were just called expansion packs, so we've always had "DLC" in one form or another.

Foxi4 · Feb 24, 2018

KingVamp said:
More from the person who is trying to at least get some kind of regulation because clearly self-regulation is failing.

Failing how, exactly? I fail (pun intended) to see how the model has failed in any way - it seems to be profitable to companies that implement it and it was embraced by gamers worldwide. Perhaps not by yourself, but the beautiful thing about the free market is that you don't have to buy things you don't like. "The free market self-regulation is failing" is always code for "I want more free stuff" or "I don't like X". Here's a hint - don't buy them, that's how the market self-regulates in the first place. If people didn't buy loot boxes, companies wouldn't implement them as there would be no reason to do so. Since they are clearly buying them, those who crow against them are clearly a vocal minority, proving once again that the smallest dogs bark the loudest, but they don't have any bite.

Xzi said:
Season passes and DLC are almost never developed at the same time as the main game. Before any of that existed, they were just called expansion packs, so we've always had "DLC" in one form or another.

Still have my C&C Collector's Edition with an expansion. DLC just made distribution of expansions a heck of a lot easier, not to mention cheaper for customers, as now you don't have to buy a complete "big box" just to get add-ons for your base game. 90's kids know the real struggle.

Xzi · Feb 24, 2018

Foxi4 said:
Failing how, exactly? I fail (pun intended) to see how the model has failed in any way - it seems to be profitable to companies that implement it and it was embraced by gamers worldwide.

From a profitability standpoint, loot boxes have been extremely successful. From a regulation standpoint not so much, because they are technically gambling for the items that the individual finds value in. From the gamer's perspective, it doesn't make sense that the items aren't sold individually or that the odds aren't published at the least.

Navonod · Feb 24, 2018

Xzi said:
Season passes and DLC are almost never developed at the same time as the main game. Before any of that existed, they were just called expansion packs, so we've always had "DLC" in one form or another.

I'm talking about gaming companies releasing halfassed games for $60 then a $10-$30 season pass and then making more "dlc" charging another $10-$30 taking 2 years to complete an already released game. Seriously though it seems some of you think I'm stupid. I know all of this. Just because I don't mention it, doesn't mean I don't know. Just saying.

Xzi · Feb 24, 2018

DrGreed said:
I'm talking about gaming companies releasing halfassed games for $60 then a $10-$30 season pass and then making more "dlc" charging another $10-$30 taking 2 years to complete an already released game. Seriously though it seems some of you think I'm stupid. I know all of this. Just because I don't mention it, doesn't mean I don't know. Just saying.

There are one or two examples of developers actually withholding content from the main game to put it in DLC instead. It's very rare though. What you're considering a "complete game" is like Warcraft 3 + Frozen Throne, but WC3 is a complete game on its own. We'd all love more free content, but a lot of work goes into post-release DLC assuming the devs care about the quality of their game. Asking them to work free is a bit selfish.

Foxi4 · Feb 24, 2018

Xzi said:
From a profitability standpoint, loot boxes have been extremely successful. From a regulation standpoint not so much, because they are technically gambling for the items that the individual finds value in. From the gamer's perspective, it doesn't make sense that the items aren't sold individually or that the odds aren't published at the least.

They're not gambling and individuals find value in everything they buy, otherwise they wouldn't buy it. The core element of gambling is the possibility of losing the bet, you can't lose at lootboxes, you can only get an undesirable result which is not the same thing. They're as much gambling as blind bag collectibles are - you always get something, it just might not be what you wanted, and you agree to participate in the randomness by purchasing the product.

Xzi said:
There are one or two examples of developers actually withholding content from the main game to put it in DLC instead. It's very rare though. What you're considering a "complete game" is like Warcraft 3 + Frozen Throne, but WC3 is a complete game on its own. We'd all love more free content, but a lot of work goes into post-release DLC assuming the devs care about the quality of their game. Asking them to work free is a bit selfish.

R6: Siege is a good example. The new Outbreak event is like a completely different, brand new game, and it's completely free. The game would probably be dead by now if not for the introduction of lootboxes - I certainly got some cool stuff out of them despite never spending a single penny on them. The season passes did allow for a constant stream of new operators and maps though, so I'm picking up the three Passes this week to complete my Operator list.

Xzi · Feb 24, 2018

Foxi4 said:
They're not gambling and individuals find value in everything they buy, otherwise they wouldn't buy it. The core element of gambling is the possibility of losing the bet, you can't lose a lootboxes, you can only get an undesirable result which is not the same thing. They're as much gambling as blind bag collectibles are - you always get something, it just might not be what you wanted, and you agree to participate in the randomness by purchasing the product.

An undesirable result in gambling is losing your money or winning back only a small fraction of what you put in to the bet. Just because you always win something worth at least $0.01 does not mean it isn't gambling, it means you can only lose 99% of your bet instead of 100% of it. It was only a matter of time until someone fucked up (EA) and lawmakers took notice. Half the time these publishers are just hoping a 5-year-old gets their hands on mommy/daddy's account and racks up thousands of dollars of loot box charges, it's a predatory practice.

As someone who does occasionally like to gamble, I can say loot boxes evoke much the same feeling as a slot machine. Thankfully I prefer blackjack and the sports book. People who do find that kind of stimuli addicting are likely to get addicted to loot box gambling as well.

Foxi4 · Feb 24, 2018

Xzi said:
An undesirable result in gambling is losing your money or winning back only a small fraction of what you put in to the bet. Just because you always win something worth at least $0.01 does not mean it isn't gambling, it means you can only lose 99% of your bet instead of 100% of it. It was only a matter of time until someone fucked up (EA) and lawmakers took notice. Half the time these publishers are just hoping a 5-year-old gets their hands on mommy/daddy's account and racks up thousands of dollars of loot box charges, it's a predatory practice.

As someone who does occasionally like to gamble, I can say loot boxes evoke much the same feeling as a slot machine. Thankfully I prefer blackjack and the sports book. People who do find that kind of stimuli addicting are likely to get addicted to loot box gambling as well.

Your argument would make sense if you were betting money and winning or losing money. There's no direct correlation between money and digital currency, it's arbitrary. You buy digital goods, boxes, and they contain a random item. If the item happens to be a duplicate, you get compensation in the form of currency. You literally can't lose, the odds for particular skins are irrelevant. There can be no talk of gambling if there are no stakes - you can only get more or less valuable goods, but you always get something.

Navonod · Feb 24, 2018

Xzi said:
There are one or two examples of developers actually withholding content from the main game to put it in DLC instead. It's very rare though. What you're considering a "complete game" is like Warcraft 3 + Frozen Throne, but WC3 is a complete game on its own. We'd all love more free content, but a lot of work goes into post-release DLC assuming the devs care about the quality of their game. Asking them to work free is a bit selfish.

No. What I consider a complete game is one that you can unlock every unlock able item in game with out having to buy the rest of the game later. Think of GTA SA or GTA Vice city for the PS2. That is a complete game. Yes some games do come out complete then get add ons later. There are many examples of game companies milking their costumers of money.

Edit: No one is asking them to work free. We only want our moneys worth with out having to pay more or wait for it.

Foxi4 · Feb 24, 2018

DrGreed said:
No. What I consider a complete game is one that you can unlock every unlock able item in game with out having to buy the rest of the game later. Think of GTA SA or GTA Vice city for the PS2. That is a complete game. Yes some games do come out complete then get add ons later. There are many examples of game companies milking their costumers of money.

Edit: No one is asking them to work free. We only want our moneys worth with out having to pay more or wait for it.

You're not the one who decides what is and is not a complete product. If developers are inclined to provide additional content for games, all the power to them - if I like the game, I'll buy the DLC to have more of the game I enjoyed.

Xzi · Feb 24, 2018

Foxi4 said:
Your argument would make sense if you were betting money and winning or losing money. There's no direct correlation between money and digital currency, it's arbitrary. You buy digital goods, boxes, and they contain a random item. If the item happens to be a duplicate, you get compensation in the form of currency. You literally can't lose, the odds for particular skins are irrelevant.

You either buy loot boxes with real money or you convert real money into digital money and then buy loot boxes with that. Either way, it's a currency with some value in it. Cryptocurrency has become incredibly popular, so it's not like one can even still claim digital currency has no value. So most of the time when you buy a loot box, you're turning $2, or the equivalent of $2 in digital/crypto currency, into $0.01 or equivalent. Very rarely you turn it into something worth $5 - $10 or equivalent. This is gambling by any definition.

In the case of Overwatch specifically, it's designed to often give you items you will never use, such as crappy common sprays or icons. The only reason Konami is even bothering with Metal Gear Survive and not focusing everything on gambling (their headquarters in Vegas is huge), is because they believe they can milk just as much money out of gamers as they do out of gamblers in the current climate of MTX and loot boxes in full-priced games. At the very least now other games can use not including these things as a selling point, and many publishers are now disclosing win rate percentages before they're forced to by law.

Navonod · Feb 24, 2018

Foxi4 said:
You're not the one who decides what is and is not a complete product. If developers are inclined to provide additional content for games, all the power to them - if I like the game, I'll buy the DLC to have more of the game I enjoyed.

Yeah sure it's my opinion. If feel like it isn't a complete game I'd want my money back. You should feel the same. I'm sure you have before.

Xzi · Feb 25, 2018

DrGreed said:
Yeah sure it's my opinion. If feel like it isn't a complete game I'd want my money back. You should feel the same. I'm sure you have before.

Well yes, there are games that ship incomplete. There are games that are simply shitty. There are games that don't turn out as intended, and there are games that are buggy. So "completeness" is only one metric of a whole when judging a game, really. Depending on if you define that by amount of content in a game.

Foxi4 · Feb 25, 2018

Xzi said:
You either buy loot boxes with real money or you convert real money into digital money and then buy loot boxes with that. Either way, it's a currency with some value in it. Cryptocurrency has become incredibly popular, so it's not like one can even still claim digital currency has no value. So most of the time when you buy a loot box, you're turning $2, or the equivalent of $2 in digital/crypto currency, into $0.01 or equivalent. Very rarely you turn it into something worth $5 - $10 or equivalent. This is gambling by any definition.

In the case of Overwatch specifically, it's designed to often give you items you will never use, such as crappy common sprays or icons. The only reason Konami is even bothering with Metal Gear Survive and not focusing everything on gambling (their headquarters in Vegas is huge), is because they believe they can milk just as much money out of gamers as they do out of gamblers in the current climate of MTX and loot boxes in full-priced games. At the very least now other games can use not including these things as a selling point, and many publishers are now disclosing win rate percentages before they're forced to by law.

It's not my fault that you don't use sprays. You were aware of the fact that you might get one at the point of purchase, so nobody tricked you, you chose to buy a cat in a bag. That's *still* not gambling, you just bought an item that gives you a random draw of rewards, which is not the same thing at all.

DrGreed said:
Yeah sure it's my opinion. If feel like it isn't a complete game I'd want my money back. You should feel the same. I'm sure you have before.

I have never wanted my money back for a video game, I don't play shitty games. I never returned one either - if I picked one I didn't particularly like, I just traded it for a different one later down the line. I totally get what you're saying, but the game is "complete" when it's on the store shelf, it's either shitty or not.

Xzi · Feb 25, 2018

Foxi4 said:
It's not my fault that you don't use sprays. You were aware of the fact that you might get one at the point of purchase, so nobody tricked you, you chose to buy a cat in a bag. That's *still* not gambling, you just bought an item that gives you a random draw of rewards, which is not the same thing at all.

If you've lost all objectivity on the matter I guess it isn't. From any other perspective it is, and it's easy to make the case for calling it gambling from a legal standpoint, as well.

Loot boxes are something entirely new and different from traditional DLC or even old MTX, where you would always get to buy specifically the items you wanted. This is still the case in games with a good payment model. Rocket League is the one game I've seen do loot boxes right, all the others have been too greedy about their odds or had too much garbage filler content.

Foxi4 · Feb 25, 2018

Xzi said:
If you've lost all objectivity on the matter I guess it isn't. From any other perspective it is, and it's easy to make the case for calling it gambling from a legal standpoint, as well.

Loot boxes are something entirely new and different from traditional DLC or even old MTX, where you would always get to buy specifically the items you wanted. This is still the case in games with a good payment model. Rocket League is the one game I've seen do loot boxes right, all the others have been too greedy about their odds or had too much garbage filler content.

Try R6 - there's a chance that you get a box with every match you win, and should you lose or fail to draw a box, your odds increase until you get one which resets the odds. It even shows you the percentage with each roll, and yes, I have gotten boxes for free at 5% odds before, so it doesn't seem to be a fake roulette wheel. That system gave me a bunch of free skins that I would never buy otherwise, it certainly kept me interested in the game.

As for objectivity (or a lack of it), I fully embrace any avenue the developers wish to use to make money. Whatever they choose to do, I'm the one with the wallet, so I'm the boss. I don't think they're responsible for the "financial well-being" of customers with shitty spending habits, nor do I think that the government should protect people from themselves. It's called personal responsibility, you should try it, it's pretty cool.

Anfroid · Feb 25, 2018

DrGreed said:
Yeah sure it's my opinion. If feel like it isn't a complete game I'd want my money back. You should feel the same. I'm sure you have before.

Honestly everything you said is exactly what I want in the game industry, I grew up buying a complete game and spending the time and effort to unlock everything I could. Nowadays I won't buy a game if I can't everything included for 60$ or under.

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